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4 Years In: What do you and your fellow players think of WFRP?


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#41 Emirikol

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 02:47 PM

I think the great balancing factor is the chaos star.  By the RAW, you've got a 1 in 8 even when everything else goes right.



#42 gmanjkd

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 02:14 AM

Hmm, I am sure that I am the minority on this page, but while I have enjoyed my time with 3e and all of the friendly people on this forum, I have arrived at a place of strong dislike for 3e. After running the game for a little over a year, with the last 3 months being a weekly game I have found the cards to be just toooooo much. To put this in context I own every expansion including all of the pods, along with 2 core box sets. I hope the game lives forever and those who enjoy it can continue to get great high quality expansions for many years to come. The game really is great but is no longer for me. Individually I love the cards and components but as a whole it drives me a bit crazy. The products are of super high quality, art is amazing, I love the adventures, the dice are great. The game is NOT portable, requires lots of prep time, lots of organization, and cannot be played just hanging on a couch. Ultimately this is why I am throwing in the towel.

Best regards to everyone and a special thanks to everyone who has ever answered one of my posts. Your ideas have been greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Gary
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#43 valvorik

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:06 AM

Understood.  I like the game but for me at least it occupies a permanent niche with its own storage system etc.  I wrote a review of it noting that "it's not a game to put in backpack and pull out in the student lounge".

 

Rob


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#44 LordPasty

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 10:09 AM

Hmm, I am sure that I am the minority on this page, but while I have enjoyed my time with 3e and all of the friendly people on this forum, I have arrived at a place of strong dislike for 3e. After running the game for a little over a year, with the last 3 months being a weekly game I have found the cards to be just toooooo much. To put this in context I own every expansion including all of the pods, along with 2 core box sets. I hope the game lives forever and those who enjoy it can continue to get great high quality expansions for many years to come. The game really is great but is no longer for me. Individually I love the cards and components but as a whole it drives me a bit crazy. The products are of super high quality, art is amazing, I love the adventures, the dice are great. The game is NOT portable, requires lots of prep time, lots of organization, and cannot be played just hanging on a couch. Ultimately this is why I am throwing in the towel.

Best regards to everyone and a special thanks to everyone who has ever answered one of my posts. Your ideas have been greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Gary

 

This.

 

To be honest, I never got around to playing/running WFRP 3,  I bought a lot of stuff for it, as I'm a big fan of the old editions and the setting, but I couldn't get my head around the mechanics.  I always sort of blamed the dice.

 

Then Edge of the Empire came along. 

 

I played it last night with my group, and my goodness.  It sings.  The "narrative dice" allow for a lot more interpretation, and the players seemed to really enjoy that (and I know I did!). 

 

When we were done, I went back to WFRP 3 to see if I just missed something.  It was a lot easier to understand the rules after having read and played EoE, but it still feels like WFRP is a lot more cluttered (and I never saw the need for "stance").  Also, there was a lot of fun interpreting the dice for ourselves instead of letting action cards decide.

 

In short, I would love to see WFRP get the same treatment.



#45 Banemus

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 01:37 PM

I really hope it doesn't because eote really felt bland to me, didn't matter what "class" i was, it was all the same.


I love the action cards here cause it really gives me something to strive for in my leveling, which doesnt exist in star wars. The only thing you have there is a talent tree that really didnt give me much satisfaction in growth. Didnt matter what i took in the tree, cause it doesnt impact my character that much.


Edited by Banemus, 21 July 2013 - 03:43 PM.

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#46 Emirikol

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 07:06 PM

Stance exists because it was the story-turned-gamist part of the Gotrek and Felix novels.  It IS wfrp because that's what the story held.  Sure, you can easily play without it, but that's why it exists.  Removing that component wouldn't break the game one iota.  In fact, I would argue that there is no component in WFRP3 that cannot be removed and played like the reduced eote complexity if one so chose. Some prefer the game system.  Some prefer the Warhammer Universe.  Some can combine the two with a little ingenuity.

 

There's a lot of stuff that I don't use and have had no difficulty turning the WFRP3 game into exactly what I wanted.    I hope you guys can too.  If not, well, then have a great time with EotE  :)


Edited by Emirikol, 21 July 2013 - 07:08 PM.

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#47 Pedro Lunaris

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 11:00 PM

I had my doubts with the system components when I bought 3ed. Then we played it for a couple of months and I loved it all, but it still felt a lot. There was no real problem, just the feel of how to manage so much information, and how to translate it in narrative terms.

 

Even though it was a lot of things to get used to, and so a little hard to catch up, one thing that helped make me a fan is that every mechanic is potentially related to narrative. So, after a while, translating mechanics into narrative became so adictive that I was asking for too many dice rolls just to interpret them, and so I wasn't making many decisions about the story.

 

Then we stopped playing for a while. There was a player in the group that stopped being around with us, and another friend started a Pathfinder campaing with a great story (the only thing to make me go back to D20 was a great story that unfortunately ran with the system; but now we actually translated all the game into a generic version of Dragonlance Saga, and all is well). It has been something near 10 months.

But as I was itching, and everyone still in touch was too, we will come back to Warhammer pretty soon. And when I went back to read materials and started organizing for the next game soon to come, I fell in love with the system yet again.

 

Now I'm having a blast organizing things. I was never a well organized GM. I'm using zip lock plastic bags to keep the cards separated by type, and also to give enemies the cards I chose for them. I also have some bags of tricks, as I'm not sure how the group will deal with trouble in terms of the mechanics. And I discovered another thing...

 

The number of action cards used to bother me. Now I'm seeing them as a great thing. What's happening is that I'm choosing action cards for key NPCs and I'm noticing the system is giving me unique options for every character the PCs will meet in an encounter. Since they work through Action Cards, the mechanics are adjusting themselves to the combination I make, thus creating singularities that will be real fun to roll. Things will work differently for every encounter the PCs have, ever.

I'm thrilled about it all.


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#48 Keeop

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 08:23 AM

Stance exists because it was the story-turned-gamist part of the Gotrek and Felix novels.  It IS wfrp because that's what the story held.  Sure, you can easily play without it, but that's why it exists.  Removing that component wouldn't break the game one iota.  In fact, I would argue that there is no component in WFRP3 that cannot be removed and played like the reduced eote complexity if one so chose. Some prefer the game system.  Some prefer the Warhammer Universe.  Some can combine the two with a little ingenuity.

 

There's a lot of stuff that I don't use and have had no difficulty turning the WFRP3 game into exactly what I wanted.    I hope you guys can too.  If not, well, then have a great time with EotE   :)

You know, there's a lot going for what you state here, not just with these two cousin-rpg's but with any system. In my opinion the biggest thing people struggling with WFRP exhibit is a lack of creativity and ingenuity. The whole point of a modular system is that you can mold it to your table. Want a "portable" game? Run lite with books and dice only. Overwhelmed by "bits" or find things that don't flow well? Terraform the system as JH has. I have yet to read a single, negative point on this board  that can't be solved with an hour of brain power and a glass of scotch. Some folks don't have the hour or the scotch, and that's totally cool. Not all games can be all things to all people. But frankly as a whole we won't benefit greatly if FFG follows the footsteps of Wizards and release multiple versions of the same game every 5 years that divide the community into little Dunning Kruger pockets. I hope the few folks intrigued with the idea of a WH4e port of Edge see what they're asking for there.

 

WFRP 3e can be an elegant, fantastic game that offers years of play for the right table. EotE can be a stellar, streamlined and casual narrative system that is also a complete and total blast to play. Two different games for two different demographics. They don't have to, or necessarily need to mix. But in a few cases, like my own, it's a real treat to GM both :)


Edited by Keeop, 29 July 2013 - 11:50 AM.

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#49 Tush Hog

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 10:25 AM

Stance exists because it was the story-turned-gamist part of the Gotrek and Felix novels.  It IS wfrp because that's what the story held.  Sure, you can easily play without it, but that's why it exists.  Removing that component wouldn't break the game one iota.  In fact, I would argue that there is no component in WFRP3 that cannot be removed and played like the reduced eote complexity if one so chose. Some prefer the game system.  Some prefer the Warhammer Universe.  Some can combine the two with a little ingenuity.
 
There's a lot of stuff that I don't use and have had no difficulty turning the WFRP3 game into exactly what I wanted.    I hope you guys can too.  If not, well, then have a great time with EotE   :)

You know, there's a lot going for what you state here, not just with these two cousin-rpg's but with any system. In my opinion the biggest thing people struggling with WFRP exhibit is a lack of creativity and ingenuity. The whole point of a modular system is that you can mold it to your table. Want a "portable" game? Run lite with books and dice only. Overwhelmed by "bits" or find things that don't flow well? Terraform the system as JH has. I have yet to read a single, negative point on this board  that can't be solved with an hour of brain power and a glass of scotch. Some folks don't have the hour or the scotch, and that's totally cool. Not all games can be all things to all people. But frankly as a whole we won't benefit greatly if FFG follows the footsteps of Wizards and release multiple versions of the same game every 5 years that divide the community into little Dunning Kruger pockets. I hope the few folks intrigued with the idea of a WH4e port of Edge see what they're asking for there.
 
WFRP 3e can be an elegant, fantastic game that offers years of play for the right table. EotE can be a stellar, streamlined and casual narrative system that is also a complete and total blast to play. Two different games for two different demographics. They don't have to, or necessarily need to mix. But in a few cases, like my own, it's a real treat to GM both :)
Much truth here.

#50 Pedro Lunaris

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 12:06 PM

and a glass of scotch!!!

:oD


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#51 Emirikol

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 04:13 PM

So what news from GenCon?

 

jh



#52 Gallows

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 12:18 PM

I have started preparing TEW and while I still find wfrp to be heavy and slow during combat, I think I'll solve it by making sure people are ready to roll their dice when their turn comes up.

I really look forward to playing TEW and I've streamlined our house rules to support faster play.

#53 Emirikol

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 12:26 PM

I have started preparing TEW and while I still find wfrp to be heavy and slow during combat, I think I'll solve it by making sure people are ready to roll their dice when their turn comes up.

I really look forward to playing TEW and I've streamlined our house rules to support faster play.

 

Our group seems to have found a sweet spot.  We got rid of the major clunk:
1.  No talent socketing.  It's a stupid, gamist mechanic.  Gone.

2.  No Defense "recharge."  Clunky, unnecessary, gamist mechanic.  Gone.  Solid, constant black dice defense. Very simple and no "recharge" or trying to justify how you can only parry one person per round in a narrative combat.

3.  No party sheet.  Good idea, bad implementation.  Gone (unless a player 'needs' it).

4.  Initiative is on YOUR turn.  If you switch with someone, great.  If not, then you go in order of your rolled initiative.  There's none of this "planning session crap" before the players go now to slow us down.

5.  No rally step.  Dumb idea from the start.  Gone unless a player calls for it for an ability.

 

 

 

Those things dramatically sped up our games (along with having enough dice for everyone).  Cancelling dice is easy and quick.

 

jh


Edited by Emirikol, 19 August 2013 - 12:32 PM.


#54 Gallows

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 04:47 PM

I removed the party sheet. It was just not adding much except the party ability. We don't miss it. I just give everyone fortune points directly. Also the sharing of talents seemed silly.

But about socketing - how do you handle that advanced and heroic careers can slot more talents? So you simply have every single talent active at all times? Doesn't that give a lot to keep track of? One advantage I can see is that some of the less popular talent's may actually get used.

I like the initiative system, because players can take turns and react to what happends. I like that. I do however agree that it may slow combat down, which I hate :-(

I also really like how defence works, that you can only commit so much to defence and that it can leave you open. How do you handle other defensive cards then and improved versions. The advanced rank 4+ cards actually help balance combat a lot. But all that recharge token crap slows the game down generally. I would like to find an alternate system without recharge tokens, but where you still had to cycle cards. Some sort of deck system where you play them and can return them to your hand somehow.

#55 Emirikol

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 05:48 PM

 But about socketing - how do you handle that advanced and heroic careers can slot more talents? So you simply have every single talent active at all times? Doesn't that give a lot to keep track of? One advantage I can see is that some of the less popular talent's may actually get used. 

I also really like how defence works, that you can only commit so much to defence and that it can leave you open. How do you handle other defensive cards then and improved versions? The advanced rank 4+ cards actually help balance combat a lot. But all that recharge token crap slows the game down generally. I would like to find an alternate system without recharge tokens, but where you still had to cycle cards. Some sort of deck system where you play them and can return them to your hand somehow.

 

Regarding talents:  Yes, they are all on, all the time.  The exhaustable ones have a recharge of 4.  As for the 'benefit' of having an extra talent slot for 2nd and 3rd career characters, the point is kind of moot.  It just doesn't matter.  Higher career characters have the roleplaying aspect instead.  My players generally haven't complained about actually getting to use various talents, and YES, they do start taking the more obscure ones.

 

I too give fortune points whenever I feel like it (usually after something dramatically heroic), and I also allow regain of fortune points on double-boon (instead of universal effects, etc).  Since we can use our fortune points whenever, people are more apt to use them, rather than hoarding them all session.

 

Regarding Defence:  We don't use any of the cards that are defence (basic, improved or advanced).  Any card that references defence recharge is simply house ruled to what it would be normally.  For example: "While your defence is recharging, you gain blah blah blah..that means recharge 2.)  This eliminates basically 6 out of the 8,000,000,000 cards in this system.  One thing I'm currently pondering though is how to house rule the morningstar...

 

I too like that you may leave yourself open for a defence, but I figure enough is enough on keeping the action moving.  Like 2nd edition had "Hit Locations."  It was interesting, but it slowed combat and was really unnecessary in the end (in my games). 

 

Also, as there are a LOT of chaos star effects that I don't like to constantly adjudicate, I added that 2 boons cancel a chaos star.  This has the benefit that we don't have to always make something up for chaos stars PLUS it reduces chances for criticals and better effects on cards.  Considering the numbers of white and black dice being thrown around, it levels the playing field of effects (2 banes cancel a comet).

 

All in all, it came down to personal preference and a couple simple fixes.  That's what I like about this game.  Its modularity essentially makes it infinitely house rule-able.


Edited by Emirikol, 19 August 2013 - 06:10 PM.


#56 cparadis

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 05:51 PM

So what news from GenCon?

 

jh

Sadly, no news from GenCon. I asked, but got the standard answer to watch the website.



#57 cogollo

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 12:37 AM

 

All in all, it came down to personal preference and a couple simple fixes.  That's what I like about this game.  Its modularity essentially makes it infinitely house rule-able.

 

 

Yes, this is also what I liked a lot about WFRP3. The components actually give you a lot of cool ideas to implement the details of your adventures. I find it quite easy to choose which modules to use depending on the setting/adventure we are playing. I have houseruled some of the aspects of the game, specially stress/fatigue so that they can affect the characters more time before they go unconscious (basically, the threshold is a fixed number, now 6, plus the character's relevant characteristic).

 

And talking about settings, we have used this system (mainly its dice mechanics) to run short scenarios in other settings. So far our group has done medieval Europe, modern Afghanistan and a science fiction scenario is coming soon.

 

I've just recently started playing Edge of the Empire and it is a really good game for narrative style play. It's a very well done evolution of the WFRP3 dice mechanics for more narrative gaming. I miss a bit the stance dice, as I think they add an extra level of control for the characters. On the other hand, I think they really got it perfect this time with the DIfficulty and Expertise dice which are a bit clankier in the system... If FFG would develop a new version of the system, I hope they keep everything in place but use the dice mechanics of Edge of the Empire for Expertise and Difficulty dice.


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#58 Gallows

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:00 AM

I am pondering if it would be possible to create a system where you have all cards on your hand when combat starts and then play the cards to the table. Either have a sort of power threshold that recharges and the recharge of the cards is the cost of playing them. Or let it be so that when you play a card with recharge 5 you need to have a total of 5 played cards to return it to the hand. All effects referencing recharge counters would use a fixes number. Hmm cam already see several reasons why that wouldn't work, but I'd really like to make a general system that removed recharge tokens.

But I don't know if it really is that time consuming as most recharge token work can be done after or
Before the players turn.

Getting dice, interpreting them for the cards and picking which card to use are the major time hogs as my table. And the initiative system too, but haven't given that much thought as it doesn't really slow eote down. But the combination of the initiative system and all the fiddly parts may be a bad mix.

If everyone has their card and dice ready when it's their turn, then they only need to make the check and get the result. Recharge tokens can be put on cards as the next player is up. I'll try a streamlined initiative so everone knows when their turn is up and can be ready, for our next session and see how that goes.

Edited by Gallows, 20 August 2013 - 01:01 AM.

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#59 BigKahuna

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 08:02 AM

WFRPG 3.0 in my humble opinion has been probably one of the most memorable and fun gaming experiences I have had since the days of 1st edition AD&D.  It's clever, engaging and unique.

 

It's unfortunate however that its been such a short lived and lightly printed edition, its understandable to a degree given the countless components and sheer volume of the game but I would have like to have seen more story module box sets.  The print on demand I find kind of pointless as it adds the one thing this game doesn't need anymore of, mechanic detail.  What we need is more cleverly written adventures for the game.

 

None the less I consider my set complete at this point in terms of everything I wanted/needed.

 

If I where to say anything negative about the game I would point out that the game doesn't play well with more then 4 players. Even if you have the components, its really geared more towards smaller parties 2-4 players, maybe 5 if everyone knows the rules well and keeps their areas tidy.  I tried to run a session with 6 players and it was an awful mess that made a six player Twilight Imperium game in round 8 look clean.

 

I would also have to say that the game is really really tough from a player perspective and this isn't always appreciated by every audience.   Characters die and they die often, its a rare campaign that see's all the characters survive with their mental state in tact.  Its a brutal game though it appeals to me personally, I would be lying if this wasn't one of the more frequent complaints we here at our tables.

 

All and all though, given the epic failure of 4th edition, this game really saved fantasy role-playing for me.  


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#60 abidibladiduda

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 04:19 PM

The game delivers many great rp helps for players to flesh out their character. Most other system don't have much to do with actually rp and just support you with stats and rules which I don't find that interesting. I do not see how the system is tough from a player perspective. I do not feel that the system kills you faster then others. It's just that the system doesn't have a million hooks that save you. You usually only die because you are playing a character that acts in a way that doesn't support living long and retiring at some point not because the system is out to get you no matter what. I personally hate when systems avoid player death because it takes the joy out of survival and does take away the feeling of accomplishment that you get when you survive even though the going gets tough.

The published adventures are okay I guess but they have faults. Just like any published adventure of any system has. Some are good some are bad but in the end it depends on your GM anyways.

 

From a GM perspective I cannot say anything negativ. I just love the system. In addition I really like how the system supports me in giving flavor by interpreting dice rolls. Of course if you do not enjoy that the system might feel like it's wasting your time. I also cannot say that I need a lot of time preparing a session but that might also depend on the fact that I don't use published adventures myself.

I cannot talk about published adventures from a GM perspective because I do not use those. But the warhammer lore is so rich and great that I also do not feel like I would need them anyways (which I would hate).






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