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Should/does shields break?


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#1 Damorte

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:00 AM

Im currently playing a cleric whos using a synford pattern lock shield. One of the players of our group insists that shields should break just as any other cover in the game, but ive yet to find anything in the game rules that states that this is the case. Could someone please clarify this for me?



#2 FieserMoep

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:40 AM

Well, there are several 'primitive' Shields that work like cover (i. e. Tower Shield - IH) though the Sinford is not one of them. It is made of ceramite and therefore is just as reliable as Carapace Armor or any other Weapon that gets used to parry stuff. If this shield would suffer from the Cover Rules all your armor should because that is simply what it is: Stackable Armor. The problem of this shield, that makes it a formidable upgrade, is its fireing port that makes it an awe-inspiring tool in combination with a good shotgun. (Though I wonder why a cleric is using such a dedicated arbites shield^^)

So rule-wise the shield does not have the cover rules and therefore does not get damaged by every penetrating hit. (That would be pathetic for 4 AP… even an unarmed attack could destroy the arbites most resilient tactical shield that is used to protect from small-arms fire and even explosives)



#3 Damorte

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 04:41 AM

Thanks for the clarification! :)

I came in posession of the shield through using the inquiry/availability section of the core rule book while being at Scintilla.



#4 FieserMoep

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:13 PM

And my comment was just poking.^^ RAW there is nothing against this combination it is just that in our group the NPCs might react irritated to a Cleric that is carrying a shield with him. It is not part of the iconic gear you would expect and should also not faith be the only "shield" a cleric is in need of? ;)

Combat Shields of this quality are mostly issued for highly combat orientated forces in limited environmental situations just like boarding parties or arbites but there is nothing wrong with a cleric that uses a fancy shield, maybe even decorated with some litanies or purity seals as a bullwark against the dark powers.^^



#5 BlaxicanX

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:09 PM

Tell him that you'll rule that your shield breaks with multiple strikes if his armor breaks with multiple strikes. 

 

The synford-pattern lockshield isn't even cover. It's basically just extra AP on the body parts that it covers.



#6 Darth Smeg

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:48 PM

Shields (even the ones that provide cover) are classified as weapons, and there are no rules about damaging weapons. 

The only really wierd and unexplainable reference is the description of Lathe Blade upgrades in the Inquisitors Handbook, where they state that " A Lathe blade cannot be destroyed by the effects of a power field and counts as having an Armour value of 25 if directly attacked."

But there are no rules for attacking weapons, so it makes little sense.


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#7 Damorte

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:14 AM

FieserMoep said:

And my comment was just poking.^^ RAW there is nothing against this combination it is just that in our group the NPCs might react irritated to a Cleric that is carrying a shield with him. It is not part of the iconic gear you would expect and should also not faith be the only "shield" a cleric is in need of? ;)

Combat Shields of this quality are mostly issued for highly combat orientated forces in limited environmental situations just like boarding parties or arbites but there is nothing wrong with a cleric that uses a fancy shield, maybe even decorated with some litanies or purity seals as a bullwark against the dark powers.^^

 

Oh i did quiet vividly describe the shield as being covered with litany, ecclesiarcial symbols and song texts of praise. My cleric is after all a puritan fanatic, who leads from the front while singing inspiring praising songs to the emperor and the holy saints! ^^



#8 IdOfEntity

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:36 AM

Darth Smeg said:

Shields (even the ones that provide cover) are classified as weapons, and there are no rules about damaging weapons. 

The only really wierd and unexplainable reference is the description of Lathe Blade upgrades in the Inquisitors Handbook, where they state that " A Lathe blade cannot be destroyed by the effects of a power field and counts as having an Armour value of 25 if directly attacked."

But there are no rules for attacking weapons, so it makes little sense.

Yet some shields are used as defensive weapons for parrying, and thus could be broken by a power field.  Others contribute directly to AP, and do not act as a defensive weapon.  It brings to mind your previous post concerning House Rules on shields.  Shields need to be cleaned up in the errata.



#9 Hakaisha

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 12:29 PM

Shields are weapons, they have the defensive quality, and potentially some AP to defend with

They are like any other weapon, you can parry with it, you can attack with it.

Power Fields can destroy it, unless it is a force shield or a power shield, or some of the other options that makes it so that power fields can't destroy them…

Oh and Critical damage can destroy shields too, just like it can destroy anything else…

I find the rules to be really clear about this… But people tend to see Shields and Weapons as two different type of items.

 

Always remember there is GM discretion. So there is that.



#10 Darth Smeg

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:00 PM

IdOfEntity said:

Yet some shields are used as defensive weapons for parrying, and thus could be broken by a power field.

It's the other way around, it is when a weapon is parried by a power weapon that it might be destroyed. Not when you parry a power weapon.

You would have to actively attack with your shield in order to risk having it parried and destroyed. Considering the penalites most people get for attacking with Defensive weapons, this is not likely to happen.


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#11 IdOfEntity

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:10 AM

Darth Smeg said:

IdOfEntity said:

 

Yet some shields are used as defensive weapons for parrying, and thus could be broken by a power field.

 

It's the other way around, it is when a weapon is parried by a power weapon that it might be destroyed. Not when you parry a power weapon.

You would have to actively attack with your shield in order to risk having it parried and destroyed. Considering the penalites most people get for attacking with Defensive weapons, this is not likely to happen.

Ah, I see our mistake.  We had been playing it as parrying or parried by a power weapon.



#12 FieserMoep

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:58 AM

IdOfEntity said:

Ah, I see our mistake.  We had been playing it as parrying or parried by a power weapon.

We use that rule too. As far as I know this is also how it is handled in later publications like Black Crusade that are basicaly some "updated" DH rules. And in my opinion that makes much more sense.



#13 Darth Smeg

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:12 PM

FieserMoep said:

We use that rule too. As far as I know this is also how it is handled in later publications like Black Crusade that are basicaly some "updated" DH rules. And in my opinion that makes much more sense.

I had missed that change. But for some reason it was changed back to it's original version in Only War. By design or mistake, I do not know. I think it makes sense that it works both ways, after all an impact is an impact, regardless of which side has the highest momentum.


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#14 IdOfEntity

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:54 AM

Darth Smeg said:

FieserMoep said:

 

We use that rule too. As far as I know this is also how it is handled in later publications like Black Crusade that are basicaly some "updated" DH rules. And in my opinion that makes much more sense.

 

 

I had missed that change. But for some reason it was changed back to it's original version in Only War. By design or mistake, I do not know. I think it makes sense that it works both ways, after all an impact is an impact, regardless of which side has the highest momentum.

The Black Library books I've read have been pretty clear that the power field on a power sword doesn't require momentum to destroy.  Proximity is enough.   Are Power Fists depicted otherwise?  (Sorry for the Threadjack for this question)



#15 FieserMoep

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:04 AM

Well, as a weapon they function differently. After they have activated their power field it is on a stand buy, conserving its energy though after an impact is near its field gets activated and unleashes its complete power in one devastating blow, pretty much like thunder hammers. In some novels power fist were also discriped as activated by their user. So for example you could manually activate the field, throw your fist in some solid plate, deactivate it and use the servor motors to tear the plate apart. Actually as a military grade gear I pretty much think the field can be manually activated all time, also when parrying.



#16 Darth Smeg

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:17 AM

Well, in that case it really should be when you parry an attack made by a power weapon that your normal weapon is destroyed. Not if your normal weapon is paried by a power weapon. After all, the power weapons field will activate as it hits, and it can't know if it hits flesh, armour or a parrying weapon.


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#17 FieserMoep

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:15 PM

A power weapon will just activate when you want it to. A power fist is a military tool not a rifle sold to civilians with easy to use and dumbed down mechanics that prevent you from doing things that are not intended. I pretty much think that though the power fist usaly only activates if you strike something it can also manually activated if you need it to. Also there pretty much must be a user controllable trigger, for a power fist gets used for a lot of things where the field is not needed. And espaccialy a power fist should be able to break weapons when parrying an enemy weapon.

- Open your fist

- Sucessfull roll a parry

- Grab the weapon in your open fist

- Activate your power field

- Roll for the 75% chance

- Break the Weapon

- Profit

And even if you do not grab the weapon, just activate your fist at the right moment, the fist will engulfe in a potent power field stronger than all the others. And if you still argue now that the fist only activate when you are hiting stuff… well… roleplay it as if you have balls of steel and you are not parrying by deflecting someones blade when you are equiped with one of the stronged melee weapons the imperium offers… you are parrying by striking at it with your full strenght to shatter the blade or what every flimsy weapon is used against you.



#18 Darth Smeg

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:45 PM

Hey, I'm convinced. I just think the rule as written in DH is a little strange. I'll be going with the BC version I think, make enemies with Power Weapons really nasty :)


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#19 Phi6891

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 01:25 PM

I have a question then, from the IH on page 162-163, the Naval Shield provides a cover bonus of 8 AP, so does mean that the shield doesn't lose it's AP from attacks, short of power weapons then?



#20 FieserMoep

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 01:31 PM

In my interpretation if it gets deployed and used as cover it also gets damaged by ranged attacks. In melee it would also be destroyable by power weapons just as any other weapon without a protection against them. Though regular melee weapons would not damage it when used to parry or "block" weapons. This might be inconsitent but it is just as "unrealisitc" than any other armor rules.






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