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Nerfing power armour?


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#1 ranoncles

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:27 PM

 

The search function is not working properly (links send you into the warp without a Gellar field) so I’ll just throw this out there.

 

 

How do other GM’s tackle the issue of power armour for acolytes? I feel that it should be exceedingly rare (and portray it thus in my sessions) and personally feel that only inquisitors (and then only those with a century or so of duty and goodwill rather than callow, newly minted inquisitors) can acquire such a suit and the necessary maintenance. Yet the rules make them more or less readily available if you have the cash and the time to find one.

 

So how to make it truly rare and/or less than attractive?

 

I am currently considering adding the terminator armour rule that you can’t dodge, only parry, based on the fact that humans lack the black carapace and thus simply lack the instinctive fine motor control required to dodge bullets. In addition, each suit is a custom job and thus only given as a reward by either the mechanicus or a suitably powerful organization.

 

And to prevent them from picking a fight with a power armour equipped NPC just to loot the corpse (a popular stratagem I am sorry to say), I feel the use & maintenance of power armour suits should be subject to pacts between the wearer and the mechanicus which are not transferable…



#2 Darth Smeg

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:35 PM

Their power supply makes their usability very limited. And you don't swim well in them either :)

There was a thread on the Rogue Trader forums a long time ago, you may find it with Google if you're lucky.

Other than that, steal the Melta Weapon Quality from Only War: All Melta weapons double their Pen on Short range. See how much that power armour helps against something with a Pen of 24 :)


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#3 FieserMoep

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:26 AM

The rarity and price in the Dark Heresy Books is just an indicator what it COULD be. They are not mandatory though if your players insist on them you can always as a GM say: "Yup, you have found someone that 'would' sell them for that 'price'. Though… you should think twice… do you realy want to enter a Temple of the Adeptus Mechanicus and ask them if they would sell a honored relic for some ordinary thrones? They might get pissed for that… also… who is doing your maintanence? And how much conceilable is that power armor? Isnt beeing an Acolythe also about beeing 'silent'?"

And when they have reached the point where they do not have to be silent anymore to achieve their goals a power armor is no problem anymore. It 'just' has 2 AP more than Carapace with some additional fancy gear. It is great to make an akolyhte feal awsome when he is rewarded for… lets think of it… saving a high ranking arch-magos or an important AdMech Temple-Factory. But I think it is nothing that should be available because the Book suggests some Test-Rolls. That is always the lazy way to get some gear, but totally inappropriate for some fanzy stuff like that. It is okay for some mass produced weapons and ammo but not for relics like power armor. Just think who else is wearing this stuff? Inquisitors… Gouvenors… Rogue Traders… even high ranking Generals of the Guard mostly just have some good quality carapace. The individuals that can afford such a tool of protection are few and the chances are pretty high that your akolythes just get identified because of this wich migh lead to further problems. And maybe your other players would force your Power.Armor owner to drop that thing simpley because it is to obvious. These roleplay consequences are the best way to balance that thing in my opinion for I would not change the armor rule-wise. It is supposed to be the pinacle of human armor craftmanship, and dodging is also pretty much doable without the carapace.



#4 Cymbel

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 10:26 PM

Standard DH power armor (light and "heavy") is the bottom of the barrel, these are the old (though not REALLY old), battered, well worn suits, they have limited battery life, make it hard to sneak, would require maintenance and parts and the larger version even makes you easier to hit. Now, in the Macharian Handbook he has the better versions listed and if you give them a couple subsystems (probably holding back on the good power source though), then they start to reach their true potential. But compare PC Light Power Armor to Sororitas Power Armor, it has all the benefits of the former and then +5 BS, auto braces heavy weapons, infinite power, extra chest armor (I believe that comes from the sloped plating XD) and so on. The heavier stuff makes you stick out (around the size of a space marine), easier to hit, costs a fortune and for the price you may as well get a higher quality carapace. Also, don't forget the "crap" versions you can find in RT, which are similar to power armor, but worse, like Augmentic Engine Plate (I believe one of them is called) or the armor upgrade that makes "normal" armor powered essentially, have the PCs find these in their quest possibly? A lot of folks would believe these are TRUE power armors and that would make their search harder.



#5 Adeptus-B

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:27 AM

For a recent mission, one of my players tried to requisition power armour from the Inquisition; I assigned it a very remote chance of being in stock at the Tricorn's armoury, and rolled… an '01'. The player was pretty stoked about having power armour, even temporarily. -Until he found out that I roll for battery life secretly, and the suit powered down on the eve of a major confrontation, turning the PC into a statue…



#6 MalikCarr

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:08 PM

Basically, power armor is massive, clunky, temperamental, takes a while to get into and out of, and also sends a pretty sharp statement about who you are and what you do.

It's the perfect gear for charging into a mob of daemons or on a pitched battlefield, but most types are basically useless for investigative work since it's near impossible to disguise. As a GM, you should fully work with these values to make sure that power armor is very useful during intense combats and a social (and possibly logistical) hassle elsewhere.

Finally, a salient point. Power armor grants you a bonus to Strength, which is nice for hand-to-hand fighters, and 2+ armor points over carapace armor, which is also nice. Versus really heavy weapons, though, such as meltaguns or power swords, the extra armor is almost irrelevant, which is something I've observed with interesting clarity. At the time in which your Throne Agents can get their hands on power armor, some heavier adversaries will likely have weapons to counter them with.

Statistically speaking you shouldn't have to do anything about it - let the high Throne, logistical, and social costs do their thing and things should flatten out.



#7 FieserMoep

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:29 PM

Adeptus-B said:

For a recent mission, one of my players tried to requisition power armour from the Inquisition; I assigned it a very remote chance of being in stock at the Tricorn's armoury, and rolled… an '01'. The player was pretty stoked about having power armour, even temporarily. -Until he found out that I roll for battery life secretly, and the suit powered down on the eve of a major confrontation, turning the PC into a statue…

So that guy is getting such a valuable tool without any tech-priest giving him some basic advice such as: "Keep an eye on the powerlevel."?

I know that this is the civilian garbage version of this armor though it is the mass produced version of the most advanced personal armor the imperium can field even if its lacks important subsystems like independent military grade power supply etc. Nevertheless a Power Armor should stay what it is: the best armor you can have in terms of soacking damage and grantig some further benefits like increased strenght or beeeing environmentaly sealed. Though it clearly has other effects that balance it out. You cant sneak well with it, you are pretty much the only person around wearing such a suit and though it might be intimidating to others, it also places a big target indicator on you that says: Shoot me first with all you got.

Those 2 APs are nice against small-arms fire, but if your enemys start to bring a krak-missile they would not have seen necesary if you were wearing a carapce you might hink twice. Also for the money you could try to get a best quality carapce and buy other tools like a respirator or such and have the same effect without beeing so exposed and obvious. Mostly a power armor is a symbol of wealth and power, not everything an acolythe should be proud to display unless he is something realy high ranking. In my opinion also only melee focused characters benefit from it, the strengh increase speaks for itself but further more they are the only ones that do not have the luxury of cover and beeing concealed like ranged fighter and therefore it is a nice balance to offer for those melee fighters that are no sneaky assassins. As a shooter I would always prefer carapce or stealth suits (bodygloves etc.).

And as other said, a power sword it easily cutting through that gear and at that stage where you akolythes can get their hand on power armor they main enemy should not be armed with autoguns anymore.



#8 Cypherinthesystem

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:44 AM

I dont think GM's should remove Power armor from game. Dont make it so attractive. I think alot of GMs/ Players who fall heavy on upgrades and equipments stem from old school pen and paper thought. "I need to get the weapon that ignores X so I can get Loot Y". DH is not about that at all. If you are constantly throwing KO monsters at the players, then yeah, the reaction will be "I need power armor, ASAP". Consider the pace and attention of the game for players to focus priorites on other things.

If the player gets to Ascension level gaming, then you shouldnt prevent them from getting power armor, nor should you loop-hole them either (Power Level being low). If your players busted there buts to get to Rank 8/Rank 9, ascended to Throne Agent, then yeah why not let them try. Power armor draws attention, Period. If the player chooses to walk around like mr bigshot, the GM should make NPC's aware of this, and play it out accordingly. Roman legions for example wore different types of armor based on wealth, position, and status. If you wore Bronze armor over leather, that ment something. People did a once over when considering you. But it also attracted the low life scum and possible fellow who saw a "High Risk, High Reward".

Looting dead bodies, reinforce the theme of DH. Do you really want to wear something belonging to a Heretic? Or if they just dropped a guy wearing Power armor, do they have the nessecary tools to remove it? Strong enough to carry them? All of a few examples to make it a burden to attempt to "loot it".

Far as making your players feel vulnerable while wearing power armor, some really good examples have been stated. Melta's should scare the **** out of them. So should a NPC with Deadeye/Marksman. Play your low level enemies intelligently (Example being taking out the power pack). Also, Low magnitude mob rules from DW work really well for that player who thinks they are nigh invulnerable. Emperor knows I've dropped plenty a player into criticals with a Magnitude 20 Mob. 

I think the bigger trend is people shoot for Carpace over Power armor, cause of the theme of DH and the effectiveness of the armor, and no one seems to argue about Stormtrooper armor being OP. I say if you make your player feel effective and keep their attention focused on other things, Loot doesnt become a focus. Aldo, how many games really get to the point of folks walking around in Power armor?



#9 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:12 AM

Darth Smeg said:

Their power supply makes their usability very limited. And you don't swim well in them either :)

There was a thread on the Rogue Trader forums a long time ago, you may find it with Google if you're lucky.

Other than that, steal the Melta Weapon Quality from Only War: All Melta weapons double their Pen on Short range. See how much that power armour helps against something with a Pen of 24 :)

That seems overkill; Power armor generally doesn't go above 8 or 9, and even Terminator armor is 14. Pen 24 would go through a Terminator and the three or four guys standing behind him. Then again, it is meant for use against tanks, not man-sized targets.

And yet, an autocannon does far more damage than a meltagun in Dark Heresy despite a meltagun doing more damage on the tabletop. Funny how things work.

I don't think power armor NEEDS to be nerfed. It's ridiculously expensive and rare, and acolytes will be lucky if they even see a suit, let alone afford one. Not to mention there's the issues of power supply, stealth, et cetera, that make it unsuitable for a lot of operations that acolytes might go through.

Though Battle Sisters do start with a suit of power armor (at Rank 1!), which hardly seems fair. It seems the game gets less and less balanced the more splatbooks are added.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#10 Lynata

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:12 AM

To me, this sounds a lot like an issue of interpretation. Some people see DH as the game of low-powered scrubs, others see it as the game of the Inquisition. If the group - meaning the GM and all their players - doesn't like the idea of power armour, then by all means why not simply make it unavailable? If there is some sort of disagreement, however, it should be talked through, as being artificially kept on the bottom could potentially ruin a player's character concept. Better to clarify the scope of the campaign beforehand and have everyone roll appropriate characters.

Boss Gitsmasha said:

Though Battle Sisters do start with a suit of power armor (at Rank 1!), which hardly seems fair. It seems the game gets less and less balanced the more splatbooks are added.
If one were to use BoM… Personally, I find the IH-version of that class a lot better.

But I have to agree with the notion that there was a sort of power creep when the license switched from Black Industries to FFG, which makes comparisons between the individual game systems a bit awkward, and may even affect later supplements of the early DH core game.


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previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#11 Hakaisha

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:57 PM

No reason to nerf the armour, it's not like there are 6 dozen weapons that can damage through one.

 

Nerfing it because it is powerfull is downright silly, most guns can kill in one hit, the rest in two or three hits. In general you will have 4-6 ap, on all location, about 4 tb, 

 

It is only when combined with two powerfists it gets powerfull, but it still doesnt need nerfing, it's hard to get, and expensive… If they can afford it, let them have it.



#12 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 11:40 AM

Two power fists means no guns. Any smart enemy will back away and shoot them to death, preferably with a plasma or melta gun. Any enemy that actually engages a power-armored maniac with two power fists is either terminally stupid or badass enough to actually kill said guy in close combat, powerfists be damned. As in, "Ork Warboss" or "Daemon of Khorne" badass.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#13 FieserMoep

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 12:20 PM

Or, for some reason, this two-power-fist-guy is a fan of calgar and has Bolters attached to them. xD

It is just hilarious how a guy with two weapons of this kind would be limited and always requires a servant to open doors etc. for him.^^ At last a SM with two Lighning Fists would make sense for they barely do anything but fighting… but a "normal" maniac with to much money that tries to investiagte stuff and is known in the entire sector for having problems on public toilets would be quite a show.^^



#14 Lynata

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 01:30 PM

To be fair, such a character likely wouldn't "investigate" much and merely work as the muscle of the party anyways. Rather similar to a Space Marine who is part of an Inquisitor's retinue.

And where would you leave something like, for example, a heavy bolter when you want to go to said public toilet? complice
(assuming you actually need to and don't simply have a waste disposal unit built into that suit)

/nitpick


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#15 FieserMoep

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:06 PM

To some degree a muscle for a party is totaly okay. But at some degree it makes any serious investigation obsolet unless you leave him at home where it is of no help when it comes to a fight.^^

And about the Heavy Bolter, if I had any cell that feels the need of fielding such weaponry without an actual threat we would storm said public toilet with flash bangs, set up a defensive parameter and enter the cabines with fire-teams of two where everyone can support each other.;)

And with the battary dependant power-armors of the rulebooks I would not expect any fancy stuff like a waste disposal unit. The biggest fear you should have is not finding a socket to power up and prevent a horrible death is this coffin made of ceramite. xD

Wanna-be-Astartes: "I am running low!"

Tech Priest: "May the Ommnissiah grant me the power to offer thy sacred relic the blessing of…"

WBA: "PUT IT IN!"



#16 Lynata

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 04:52 PM

FieserMoep said:

To some degree a muscle for a party is totaly okay. But at some degree it makes any serious investigation obsolet unless you leave him at home where it is of no help when it comes to a fight.^^ And about the Heavy Bolter, if I had any cell that feels the need of fielding such weaponry without an actual threat we would storm said public toilet with flash bangs, set up a defensive parameter and enter the cabines with fire-teams of two where everyone can support each other.;)

But would you never have a heavy bolter in your game? If you do, why not a suit of thusly equipped PA? When it's time to get out the nasty stuff, you may as well go all the way.

Not to mention that covert investigation with fake IDs is just one possible approach the Inquisition and thus a campaign may take. I'm not exactly sure what caused so many fans to forget about the classic grim-looking Inquisitor who steps out of his/her shuttle with a retinue of scary-looking minions just waiting for someone to look nervous and thus suspicious enough to interrogate them. This is what springs to my mind when I'm thinking about the Inquisition in 40k, but I'm probably too much shaped by the Codex fluff. Instead, it's all about being 007 these days?

Granted, tastes do differ, but it's something I find a bit sad. pensativo

 

 

FieserMoep said:

And with the battary dependant power-armors of the rulebooks I would not expect any fancy stuff like a waste disposal unit.

Well … why not?

 

FieserMoep said:

Tech Priest: "May the Ommnissiah grant me the power to offer thy sacred relic the blessing of…"

WBA: "PUT IT IN!"

sonreir

 


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#17 FieserMoep

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 02:58 AM

Well, most of my cells are actualy about investigation, later on when they are near ascention level they might try the bossy aproach but I never had an Inquisitor as a PC. If they do this I always confront them with the pros and cons of their decition. From this moment they are well know but also benefit from a nice respec bonus.

The reason why most of my acolythes and I by myslef prefer to start with the sneaky-sneaky investigation is that you can do still the bossy way afterwards. If you start by being a "prick" to everyone and showing your insignias it is quite difficult to "reset" your relationships. We just want to keep as much doors open as possible and keep a low profile until we know what is goin on here.

I guess it is just a different playstile for our groups never had an Inquisitor PC and the other PCs grew up in a grim and dark world were every mistake could kill you so a defensive approach was always the more "secure" but still sucessful way. But in a group I am playing in now, that lasts around 2 year now, we hit a high XP level were we literaly bear the armor of ignorance and be kinda the unpleasant bosses. So that has a place for us too… but at this level we do not bring a Heavy Bolter anymore, in fact we have larger calibers.^^ The heavy bolter in my opinion is a gap closer, it is an awsome fluffy weapon for a guardsman but we never had one. And the others prefered always SP weapons for their wide variety of upgrades and ammunition. Bolters are a weapon to show off (Let me show you how I shoot at you with a year worth of payment^^) in my opinion and we always tried to blend in more or less. It is a mater of taste but hell no, we never had a 007 assassin that banged xeno chicks.^^



#18 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:16 AM

It is a mater of taste but hell no, we never had a 007 assassin that banged xeno chicks.^^

You poor, deprived soul. All of those nubile alien sirens, and you ignore every last one of them. For shame.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."





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