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Do moderates have a place in Chaos?


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#41 Traejun

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 10:58 AM

Dark mechanicus, while arguably being the only humans deliberately and successfully innovating science and technology insted of slowly forgetting and ritualising it, are not nesseserily moderate. Most of them are part evil mad scientist part nazi "doctor" with a bit of daemonic rituals thrown to the mix. Someone who doesn't mind using a sentinent, malevolent demonic entity as a software for ship-borne high-yield orbit to surface target acquisition arrays powered by casual human sacrifices is not moderate in my book.

 

Prude!



#42 BlaxicanX

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 12:16 AM

The Chaos Gods are themselves extremists, thus many individuals end up falling to extreme ends of the scale due to all the temptations. It is pretty much an aspect of the fluff that more you give in and lose yourself to a God, the more empowered you become. Look at the Daemon Primarchs. All of them who champion a specific patron pretty much entirely embody that God's views. Angron is essentially nothing more than mindless slaughter incarnate, for example.

 

So it's possible to be a moderate in the World of Chaos, but you will never benefit from the powers of the Gods as much as those who throw off all inhibitions and give themselves utterly to them. 



#43 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 02:36 AM

There's a quote in the core rulebook (somewhere) which reads along the lines of

"We fight for Chaos that we might live for ourselves"

 

Crucially, it's attribited to a Captain Benoit of the 'Free Systems Alliance'.

 

That doesn't strike me as someone who's "Rargh! Blood! Skulls! Tentacles!" but someone who's taken one look at the Imperium from the outside and (quite understandably) said they want nothing whatsoever to do with the Xenophobic, Genocidal, Militant-Religious, Oppressive Dictatorial Nightmare of an empire.

 

If people want to play Black Crusade as the good guys (ish), a nice setting is a region of space with an Imperial Crusade thundering through it; burning anyone with a native religion that can't be twisted into the Ministorum's neat little framework, annexing every world it can lay its hands on and strip-mining every resource to feed its war engine, devastating entire worlds if its convenient....the 'heretics' need to make alliances and form some sort of power base capable of opposing the Imperium, including recruiting Chaos Marine mercenaries, learning to use the powers of the warp, persuading independent worlds to throw their armies and fleets into battle now, rather than saving them for its own defence....

 

In fact, you can play a pretty good Black Crusade campaign by more-or-less following the plot of Star Wars with the Imperium cast as the Evil Galactic Empire, Vader as an Inquisitor, an Imperial Battleship as the Death Star(s), and the rebels as independent worlds being overrun by a crusade.


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#44 Terraneaux

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 11:57 PM

I think it's important to note that the setting of 40k, as written, seems to have no real good guys.  There should be loads of moral ambiguity, but there's no reason you can't say 'The Imperium is a massive, corrupt, soul-crushingly evil government, I support Chaos because while it's pretty ****** up there's at least the chance of self-actualization.'



#45 Chaplain

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 02:43 AM

Having Ahriman as a grimdark Yoda alone makes me like the idea
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#46 Magellan

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 09:23 AM

There's a quote in the core rulebook (somewhere) which reads along the lines of

"We fight for Chaos that we might live for ourselves"

I think it's "We live for Chaos so that we might die for ourselves." which makes him sound a little more zealous.

 

 

Dark mechanicus, while arguably being the only humans deliberately and successfully innovating science and technology insted of slowly forgetting and ritualising it, are not nesseserily moderate. Most of them are part evil mad scientist part nazi "doctor" with a bit of daemonic rituals thrown to the mix. Someone who doesn't mind using a sentinent, malevolent demonic entity as a software for ship-borne high-yield orbit to surface target acquisition arrays powered by casual human sacrifices is not moderate in my book.

Not that you're not entitled to your opinion, but in *my* view, gluing metal together and throwing daemons at it until it works doesn't seem very innovative. Usually, my hereteks are of the same opinion, which I suppose makes them pretty moderate.


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#47 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 05:12 PM

40K is Pop Middle Ages in Space, where Chaos is the Devil. That's where these archetypes come from -- medieval representations of the Devil and Hell. Chaos worshipers are witches and Satan worshippers, as depicted in the Middle Ages (and even  more so later, during the witch hunts and, um, Inquisition -- witches actually weren't widely believed in until the Renaissance).

 

Moreover, 40K, if you haven't noticed, is puritanical in its ethics.

 

"Chaos moderates" violates the theme and the theology underlying it. If you sign away your soul, you get sucked further and further down. You are damned.



#48 Terraneaux

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 10:42 PM

It's also Pop Dystopia, though, owing a lot to the kind of depressing science fiction thought that creates things like Judge Dredd.  Or 1984, honestly, and in the latter's case especially the idea that so much of what 'the establishment' says is true is propaganda is part and parcel of the theme.



#49 Chaplain

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 03:02 AM

And if you mention influences on warhammer chaos is among else fantasy vikings, less so compared to fantasy warhammer but obvious nonetheless.
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#50 Ghaundan

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 05:03 AM

I'd say yes, and the BC core rulebook reflects this in fluff if not neccessarily in rules. Number one: Most of the people in 40k are humans, as in "normal" humans. They're used to VERY different lives then us, but they're still human. 

Most of the people you hear about are not normal. Space Marines seem so changed they're not really subject to normal human reactions and interractions and the fluff makes it clear that when they fall they fall HARD. But regular humans? Look at Only War's human enemy, the dominate. They're normal human beings and the book specifically states they are to be portrayed alot "softer" then the imperial guard because they're not raving fanatics who shoots anyone for being legitimately afraid of charging a machine gun.

 

Falling into service of the chaos gods and just throwing yourself all in with them are two different things. A warrior can have a strong moral code, such as  not killing non-combatants but he's still in service of khorne. Willingly or not. Tzeetch might give his boon to a scheming imperial governor wishing to seceed because the tithes are sucking the life out of his planet, but that doesn't make him radical in the "propthletizing damnation" kind, only the political kind. Which is still heresy because in the imperium religion is law and the god emperor the head of state.


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#51 Kamikazzijoe

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 06:16 AM

One basic point about moderates is that you need them to have anything of value maintained or created.  Even the largest armies can't grow beyond 10% of the population for long.  Having a heretek forge building tanks and starships requires social law enforcement even if it isn't actually written. (two examples, Q’Sal with their no war policy or to jump systems, the drow with their specific rules on what you have to do to kill a rival)

 

You could imagine a khorne society as a samurai society gone crazy.  The warriors are the ones "blessed" and they get to have the weapons and kill.  Meanwhile the majority of the population is peasants busy farming to support the warriors.

 

A society where everyone is embracing chaos is one where everyone starves due to lack of food.



#52 Chaplain

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 06:57 AM

Slaanesh is fertility, and its followers are gifted with fruit gardens and hunting forests to slate their thirst and hunger alright. Tzeench followers don't seem to starve as well if you look at Q'Sal which has solid agriculture. Khornates feast upon what they take by force from everyone else. The only one who starves are nurgle followers, and they are okay with it.
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#53 Gridash

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 06:57 AM

There should be a gray zone somewhere between both the extremes of the Imperium and the hardcore worshippers of Chaos.
 
A society that may or may not recognize the emperor and/or the chaos gods as actual gods, but aren't necessary extremists in either case. These would tolerate actual chaos worshippers to some degree, but won't be afraid to kill them if things get out of hand. Perhaps this kind of society is more like an underworld society or very mafia like with families that will take care of their own and offer protection to others for a price.
 
Bottomline is that this kind of society wouldn't really be a happy democracy or anything like that, but there will be some order of some kind.

Edited by Gridash, 30 June 2014 - 07:11 AM.


#54 Magellan

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 07:37 AM

Khornates feast upon what they take by force from everyone else.

If I were a Khornate, I would wring the location of the nearest elephant out of its tracks with my mighty headmuscle, grab the light with my bare hands and forcibly bend it around me until I'd stalked up to the beast, strangle it to death with its own trunk, and wrestle the nutrients out of its still-twitching flesh with the awesome might of a true warrior's guts.


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#55 Terraneaux

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 07:49 PM

Slaanesh is fertility, and its followers are gifted with fruit gardens and hunting forests to slate their thirst and hunger alright.

 

Slaanesh isn't fertility, that's Nurgle.  Of course, since it's Chaos it's done in a ****** up way - Nurgle will get you through without food, water, or even atmospheric pressure, but it's still gonna suck.  A lot.  

 

Slaanesh is more a god(dess) of experience, like Dionysus or Aphrodite.  

 

Chaos worshippers are still total nutjobs, but so is everyone else in the setting, let's be real here.  And things have to be relatively stable in some ways for them to build planetary-level infrastructure like on several worlds in the Vortex.  


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#56 Bulwyf

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 03:30 PM

Relating this back to the OP a bit...mechanically game wise in this game can you play a Legion CSM that is not a worshipper of Chaos? My favorite Traitor Legions are Night Lords and Iron Warriors and both of them are fairly indifferent if not hostile to Chaos itself. Do you have to choose one of the four Chaos gods for your CSM to worship? Or can you simply be a CSM that only wants to fight the Long War?



#57 Chaplain

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 04:20 PM

Your alignment and zeal (or lack of it) are entirely up to you. Yet you are being watched by the dark gods, and an entity currently most interested in you (if there is any) is the one you are aligned (and even then you don't necessarily worship it).


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#58 Deinos

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 09:54 PM


So it's possible to be a moderate in the World of Chaos, but you will never benefit from the powers of the Gods as much as those who throw off all inhibitions and give themselves utterly to them. 

 

Probably the weirdest thing about Black Crusade is that undivided types, who are specifically stated to retain the most free will and can include people who are merely using Chaos to their own ends, arguably get the most fabulous powers (Exalted powers).

 

Me personally, I would have made Undivided the weakest, since you give up the least, but as Undivided is my favorite, I have no complaints.



#59 Deinos

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 09:56 PM

Relating this back to the OP a bit...mechanically game wise in this game can you play a Legion CSM that is not a worshipper of Chaos? My favorite Traitor Legions are Night Lords and Iron Warriors and both of them are fairly indifferent if not hostile to Chaos itself. Do you have to choose one of the four Chaos gods for your CSM to worship? Or can you simply be a CSM that only wants to fight the Long War?

 

yeah, undivided.

 

Black Crusade has AMAZINGLY few requirements on what Chaotics do.



#60 Chaplain

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 01:25 AM

Maybe because Imperium requires only the slightest hints to excommunicate you, making alliance with chaos followers one of your best survival options.
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