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Do moderates have a place in Chaos?


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#21 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 02:23 PM

Quietus1 said:

So moderates could venerate any of those beings, or, as chaos undivided, embrace the whole of Chaos, the good and the ill. Hell, even the 4 greater have their good side. Flat-out in the books Tzeentch is a god of "Hope" for example. Pleasure is neither good nor evil,  its what direction you pursue it to. Khorne is the god of Rage--be it mindless bloodlust or rightious fury. And Nurgle cherishes all life--be it a smiling baby or the bubonic plague.

 

When you get right down to it, 40K has a highly puritanical view of morality (actually derived from pop history of the Middle Ages), in which all of the "good" things you mention above are actually evil, or gateways to evil.

 



#22 Terraneaux

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 03:05 PM

bogi_khaosa said:

When you get right down to it, 40K has a highly puritanical view of morality (actually derived from pop history of the Middle Ages), in which all of the "good" things you mention above are actually evil, or gateways to evil.

 

In 40k, much of the misery its inhabitants experience is of their own devising.  It's probable that this is true simply because so many believe it to be true.  All that's stopping the Chaos Gods from being the Beneficent Powers as opposed to ruinous is the belief and id of mortals.



#23 Soul Hunter

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 06:57 AM

Terraneaux said:

bogi_khaosa said:

When you get right down to it, 40K has a highly puritanical view of morality (actually derived from pop history of the Middle Ages), in which all of the "good" things you mention above are actually evil, or gateways to evil.

 

 

In 40k, much of the misery its inhabitants experience is of their own devising.  It's probable that this is true simply because so many believe it to be true.  All that's stopping the Chaos Gods from being the Beneficent Powers as opposed to ruinous is the belief and id of mortals.

 

The way I've always seen it explained is that the warp twists everything.  A Navigator can look into the warp and watch as a sea of Love begins to shift and warp into a sea of Jealousy, followed by Anger, followed by Hate, followed by Death.

 

But back to the original question, I have always followed one rule: "There are always exceptions to the rule." 

You can say that all of Chaos must be extreme but, as with everything, there are always exceptions.  The Night Lords are a perfect example in my opinion.


GM: You see the Planetary Governor standing on top of a glass box with a remote detonator in her hand-
PCs: What's in the box?
GM: Hold on, she-
PCs: It's glass we can see it, what's in the box?!  THE BOX?! THE BOX?! WHAT'S IN THE BOX?!


#24 HappyDaze

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:02 PM

You don't consider the behavior of the Night Lords to be extreme? These are the guys that work to inspire sheer terror on entire worlds. What makes you consider them to be moderates?

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#25 Terraneaux

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:07 PM

HappyDaze said:

You don't consider the behavior of the Night Lords to be extreme? These are the guys that work to inspire sheer terror on entire worlds. What makes you consider them to be moderates?

 

In some interpretations they're like Frank Miller's Batman or Rorschach from Watchmen - driven to treason, of course, but fundamentally unhypocritical, if horrifically cruel, punishers of injustice.



#26 HappyDaze

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:13 PM

Batman doesn't try to terrify everyone in Gotham. He only aimed for the criminals. If he did try to terrify the entire city, he wouldn't even be an antihero vigilante, he'd just be a typical supervillain.

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#27 Soul Hunter

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 08:30 PM

Well, yes in some ways they are like Batman. And they are the most moderate in Chaos because they generally frown upon corruption and deity worship, it's tolerated but not preferred. Right there is moderation. They are evil, but they aren't: BURN THE GALAXY BECAUSE THE VOICES IN MY HEAD SAID SO! Like many of the extremists you mentioned. They are more: Burn the galaxy because it's as good a plan as any.


GM: You see the Planetary Governor standing on top of a glass box with a remote detonator in her hand-
PCs: What's in the box?
GM: Hold on, she-
PCs: It's glass we can see it, what's in the box?!  THE BOX?! THE BOX?! WHAT'S IN THE BOX?!


#28 HappyDaze

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 11:45 PM

Your view of moderation doesn't really match with mine. I would rather see those that don't much care for the Chaos Powers not doing the exact same things that the radicals do for no reason other than 'why not?'. I mean modration of actions as much as moderation of motivation.


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#29 HappyDaze

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 11:03 PM

As example of what I consider moderates: I have a loose band of Chaos Space Marines that call themselves the War Hounds. They were started by members of the World Eaters that overcame the bloodlust of Khorne and their Butcher's Nails. They are long since gone with most members of the War Hounds coming from renegade members of Loyalist Chapters. The War Hounds are against serving any of the Chaos Gods, seeing the example of what happened to the on original War Hounds/World Eaters as the fate of those that walk that path. They further avoid hierarchy and avoid Champions (most of their ranks would be considered Forsaken). The War Hounds operate protection rackets among several worlds of the Screaming Vortex. Between this and mercenary contracts, they make a fair living in small bands. The one constant among them is loyalty - both to their fellow War Hounds and to those they protect (as long as the protection money comes in).

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#30 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 04:56 AM

Terraneaux said:

In 40k, much of the misery its inhabitants experience is of their own devising.  It's probable that this is true simply because so many believe it to be true.  All that's stopping the Chaos Gods from being the Beneficent Powers as opposed to ruinous is the belief and id of mortals.

Not really in  keeping with 40K's Pop Middle Ages in Space theme. The Warp is Hell and the four gods are the Devil. They tempt you with what seems innocent, but really leads only to damnation. Salvation lies in unthinking faith.

(Note I realize this is not how the Middle Ages or the Medieval Church actually were, but as they are popularly imagined. Which is the background of 40K.)

 



#31 Terraneaux

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:27 AM

bogi_khaosa said:

Not really in  keeping with 40K's Pop Middle Ages in Space theme. The Warp is Hell and the four gods are the Devil. They tempt you with what seems innocent, but really leads only to damnation. Salvation lies in unthinking faith.

(Note I realize this is not how the Middle Ages or the Medieval Church actually were, but as they are popularly imagined. Which is the background of 40K.

 

The warp has consistently been depicted as being colored by the psyches of mortals.  That's why the four chaos gods are all created from the actions and beliefs of mortals.  But it's a positive feedback loop: the warp is dicks because people are dicks, and the warp in turn convinces people to be more dicks, which influences the warp to be more dicks… and so on.  



#32 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 12:34 PM

Terraneaux said:

 

The warp has consistently been depicted as being colored by the psyches of mortals.  That's why the four chaos gods are all created from the actions and beliefs of mortals.  But it's a positive feedback loop: the warp is dicks because people are dicks, and the warp in turn convinces people to be more dicks, which influences the warp to be more dicks… and so on.  

Not to get into a theological debate about a fictional universe, but I think the idea, in keeping with the ultrapuritan grimdarkness, is that ALL emotions are manifestations of dickness, some less than others. For instance, Nurgle IS the god of Love. The God of Love job is taken in 40K. He is the true nature of love. or better put, love in its maximum form. When you love, you feed Nurgle, or are manifesting Nurgle, or a little of both.

 



#33 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 10:54 PM

bogi_khaosa said:

Terraneaux said:

 

 

The warp has consistently been depicted as being colored by the psyches of mortals.  That's why the four chaos gods are all created from the actions and beliefs of mortals.  But it's a positive feedback loop: the warp is dicks because people are dicks, and the warp in turn convinces people to be more dicks, which influences the warp to be more dicks… and so on.  

 

 

Not to get into a theological debate about a fictional universe, but I think the idea, in keeping with the ultrapuritan grimdarkness, is that ALL emotions are manifestations of dickness, some less than others. For instance, Nurgle IS the god of Love. The God of Love job is taken in 40K. He is the true nature of love. or better put, love in its maximum form. When you love, you feed Nurgle, or are manifesting Nurgle, or a little of both.

 

Nurgle is familial/platonic love, while Slaanesh is romantic love. If Nurgle is your jolly old grandpa who wants you to sit in his lap so he can tell you a story, Slaanesh is your hot girlfriend who wants to try that thing you've always wanted to do with her. You love them both, but in very different ways.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#34 Quietus1

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 10:11 AM

From an imperial standpoint, that bears out. The warp is hell and everything but the emperor is the devil. But to those who have thrown off the shackles of ignorance….



#35 Terraneaux

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 11:05 AM

bogi_khaosa said:

Not to get into a theological debate about a fictional universe, but I think the idea, in keeping with the ultrapuritan grimdarkness, is that ALL emotions are manifestations of dickness, some less than others. For instance, Nurgle IS the god of Love. The God of Love job is taken in 40K. He is the true nature of love. or better put, love in its maximum form. When you love, you feed Nurgle, or are manifesting Nurgle, or a little of both

 

Members of the Imperium are plenty emotional - their fervor for their god and their hatred of their enemies springs to mind.  All of this isn't necessarily self-defeating; because the Imperium isn't very fond of positive emotion either, being a stiflingly oppressive totalitarian government, it's likely to proscribe any given emotion as being an unacceptable expression of one's humanity.  



#36 InquistiorCalinx

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 05:35 PM

Might be a little late for me to chime in, but I plan to do exactly this if I ever find enough people to play )-: . If it's what you want, and what you're players/GM wants, go for it! The 40K team made these books fully aware that people would have different interpretations of there work, and that people would add variations, spins, and house rules (hence why there's a section ON THIS VERY FORUM for that sort of thing). In short, if you think it's fun, then do it!

 

P.S., Might want to try Bright Hammer, it has your back in the "not cartoon villain" chaos follower department. Heck, many followers of the Gods of Chaos (or, as they are known here, the Lords of Order) are ALLIES of the Imperium!  http://1d4chan.org/w.../Lords_of_Order


Edited by InquistiorCalinx, 23 June 2014 - 05:35 PM.


#37 Chaplain

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:35 AM

Subtle, seemingly sane and intelligent chaos space marines seem several orders of magnitude more dangerous to me than those who embrace corruption. Treacheries of the Space Marines anthology has a short story "one of us", where a small warband of alpha legionnaires with no ships, vast resources or blessings from the gods but relying on silver tongues, sharp wits and millenia of experience as professional strategists managed to put entire sector to its knees, form a capable, solid cultist military force, spread influence over all branches of local imperial civil and military power and finally get their faithful operative in the seat of Lord Inquisitor.
Yep, I also like to roleplay badass champion of ruinous powers with trophy racks and lust for slaughter. But when I play it smart I really enjoy black crusade.
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#38 Keffisch

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 08:28 AM

And this is where the setting / game and mechanics truly shine.

 

The stereotypical Durrrr, kill maim, Duuurrrr! types can be fun for one-shot scenarios.

But for campaigns I prefer the mastermind / arch villain kind - so too does my players, thankfully. :)



#39 Traejun

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:17 PM

There's a lot of everything in 40K.  It's a damn big galaxy with a ****-ton of different cultures and mentalities.  As such, almost anything you can think of, can exist.

 

As to the question of the thread - yes, moderates can exist in chaos/BC.  I tend to see people who turned to chaos for "freedom" as the classic moderates of chaos.  Similarly, anyone that's become disillusioned with the Imperium, or any of its major adepta, and departed from that society could easily be an example of someone poking around with chaos followers and be termed a moderate.

 

For me, the best example of a moderate in a BC game would be the Heretek.  That character is often not a follower of chaos at all, but a heretic by reason of his or her beliefs and philosophies... not because they worship any or all chaos gods.



#40 Chaplain

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 01:44 AM

Dark mechanicus, while arguably being the only humans deliberately and successfully innovating science and technology insted of slowly forgetting and ritualising it, are not nesseserily moderate. Most of them are part evil mad scientist part nazi "doctor" with a bit of daemonic rituals thrown to the mix. Someone who doesn't mind using a sentinent, malevolent demonic entity as a software for ship-borne high-yield orbit to surface target acquisition arrays powered by casual human sacrifices is not moderate in my book.
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