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#21 Morangias

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 10:37 AM

It is not even abouht "toughness" at all. The Crimson Guard is just a better Tech-Priest in low-med groups. 

Why? Because he can buy advancements normally available to higher ranks for twice or thrice the cost? I really don't think it's a worthwhile option if what you want to do is "Tech-Priest stuff" rather than "Shooting things while shouting 'Omnissiah!'".

 

 

Even in terms of combat a secutor can not compare.

I really don't think so. A Secutor gets Machinator Array (probably the single most broken Talent in Inquisitor's Hanbook), can buy twice as many points of The Flesh is Weak throughout his career (with the first two costing him half of what the CG is paying), and gets cheaper Toughness advances to become the ultimate tank. Also, being an actual Tech-Priest, he can boss the Venator around.

 

 

Yes, you could houserule that the TP gets his hand on some CG stuff too but is that realy the point?

Houserule what exactly? The only really unique things CG is getting is those two new Traits. Everything else is easily available to the Tech-Priest.

 

I'm not contesting that the alternate rank is strong, very strong in fact. But you're seriously overstating how much of an unfair advantage it creates.


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#22 Adeptus-B

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 12:22 PM

I'm not contesting that the alternate rank is strong, very strong in fact. But you're seriously overstating how much of an unfair advantage it creates.

 

 

I double-checked to see if I was overstating Crimson Guard's 'overpoweredness', and noticed some things that I initially missed:

 

The free 'magic lasgun' they start with does damage comparable to a boltgun (but with infinite ammo lacks the boltgun's daunting upkeep cost).

 

The free Stormtrooper Carapace armour they start with (one-and-a-half times better protection than the previous best starting armour from the initial Careers) weighs absurdly little (just over half what mere Guard flak armour weighs!), thus negating any game balance from a PC's carrying capacity. Apparently their armour is 'magic', too.

 

They get FOUR cheap Characteristic advances; every other Career is limited to three.

 

Add to that a Rank1 Skills and Talents selection that exceeds a full page (!) and I really don't see how anyone could argue that this Career (let's face it, that's what it really is, not just an Alternate Rank) isn't plainly broken.

 

The ultimate problem here is FFG's lax editorial standards. Their slipshod editing isn't limited to the innumerable typos that plague all WH40KRP books- it extends to content, with editors giving rubber-stamp approval to plainly broken (Book of Judgement features a 'magic shotgun' that does more damage than a freakin' boltgun! -And shields that add 4 points to existing armour!) or simply stupid crap (also from BoJ: Leatherwort- a magic Potion of Armor lifted directly from D&D!) that should never have been allowed to see the printed page.



#23 Saldre

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 01:03 PM

I unfortunately have to agree with that: not to mention that we haven't had another DH book in a long time, and they swapped the last one one out to Only War. 

 

Another problem is the publishing of the same content over and over and over and over and over and over again. The other day I was checking the Tome of Fate and saw the rules for Investigation from DH's Book of Judgement in there as well...

 

What first appears to be a loose/loose for FFG should be taken with a grain of salt. 

 

I don't think anyone is saying that FFG should STOP publishing things because its all going to be broken. No, just that they should be better careful about what they publish- make sure that it sort of fits into the line. Push comes to shove, if they want to include something thats rather interesting- no reason why they can't include it for more than one Class. 

 

The talent that fixes Tech-priest Fellowship and Interaction for example is CLEARLY in this book, and even though there's a full page on new Tech-priest talents and abilities (And ironically, Diplomacy for the rest), Tech-priests can't get that talent save by house-ruling....


Edited by Saldre, 15 July 2013 - 01:03 PM.


#24 Morangias

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:05 AM

 

I'm not contesting that the alternate rank is strong, very strong in fact. But you're seriously overstating how much of an unfair advantage it creates.

 

 

I double-checked to see if I was overstating Crimson Guard's 'overpoweredness', and noticed some things that I initially missed:

 

The free 'magic lasgun' they start with does damage comparable to a boltgun (but with infinite ammo lacks the boltgun's daunting upkeep cost).

It also has half the Penetration, inflicts Fatigue on the user on Jam results, and is the only range weapon the CG can use without spending exp on additional Weapon Training Talents.

 

By the way, did I mention the weapon is relatively cheap? Every tech priest can have it very easy. CG getting it even easier is hardly a problem.

 

The free Stormtrooper Carapace armour they start with (one-and-a-half times better protection than the previous best starting armour from the initial Careers) weighs absurdly little (just over half what mere Guard flak armour weighs!),

Two more points of armor and weighs less? The horror!

Seriously, though - by your logic, the corebook guardsman is completely overpowered compared to, say, scum.

 

 

 

thus negating any game balance from a PC's carrying capacity.

 

lol carrying capacity as a balancing factor for anything!

 

 

Apparently their armour is 'magic', too.

 

It's Lathe-Forged. The way it's represented is pretty mellow compared to the upgrade in Rogue Trader.

 

They get FOUR cheap Characteristic advances; every other Career is limited to three.

 

Yes, it's probably excessive. I think they should have the Int at medium cost.

 

Add to that a Rank1 Skills and Talents selection that exceeds a full page (!)

 

Which you still have to buy. Which are mostly badly overpriced compared to Rank 1 tables of corebook careers. Which mostly consist of Tech-Priest Talents you probably don't need.

 

and I really don't see how anyone could argue that this Career (let's face it, that's what it really is, not just an Alternate Rank)

 

I think the book is pretty open about it, so I'm not seeing the point of your revelatory tone.

 

isn't plainly broken.

 

It isn't. It's a bit overpowered - not in a game breaking way.

 

The ultimate problem here is FFG's lax editorial standards. Their slipshod editing isn't limited to the innumerable typos that plague all WH40KRP books- it extends to content, with editors giving rubber-stamp approval to plainly broken (Book of Judgement features a 'magic shotgun' that does more damage than a freakin' boltgun! -And shields that add 4 points to existing armour!) or simply stupid crap (also from BoJ: Leatherwort- a magic Potion of Armor lifted directly from D&D!) that should never have been allowed to see the printed page.

 

The actual problem here is that DH core is dated as ****, and the metagame of the 40k engine has progressed by a few light years ever since the game was first penned. Which is a real bummer when you're supposed to introduce new content while simultaneously working on much sleeker, better working systems where compared to DH, all the dials go up to eleven without the game grinding to a halt.

 

You can certainly see the few latest supplements as just a bunch of random overpowered **** that breaks the game. I prefer to see them as an attempt to bridge the gigantic gap between DH and other 40k games, a sneak-update to the core rules if you'd prefer.


Edited by Morangias, 16 July 2013 - 08:09 AM.

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There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
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#25 Adeptus-B

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 11:59 AM

 

The actual problem here is that DH core is dated as ****, and the metagame of the 40k engine has progressed by a few light years ever since the game was first penned. Which is a real bummer when you're supposed to introduce new content while simultaneously working on much sleeker, better working systems where compared to DH, all the dials go up to eleven without the game grinding to a halt.

 

You can certainly see the few latest supplements as just a bunch of random overpowered **** that breaks the game. I prefer to see them as an attempt to bridge the gigantic gap between DH and other 40k games, a sneak-update to the core rules if you'd prefer.

 

 

That would be a perfectly reasonable hypothesis, if the stuff we are complaining about made Dark Heresy more like Only War, but that's not the case. Weapon damage and armour values are pretty consistent between DH and OW; the principle differences between the systems are mechanical tweaks, not a significantly different power level- hence, what would be 'broken' for DH would also usually be 'broken' for OW. Shotguns do the same damage in good/new Only War as in old/bad Dark Heresy, flak armour has the same defensive value, and, although I don't have the OW Rulebook handy to double-check (I'm at work right now), I'm pretty sure 'stackable' armour does not feature in OW. So, the absurdly overpowered shotgun and stackable armours in Book of Judgement were not included to make Dark Heresy more like Only War. They were included because FFG needed to fill an Armoury section, and the freelancer they hired to do it found that all of the 'low-hanging fruit' had already been plucked. It is established 40K lore that Arbites wear carapace armour and wield combat shotguns loaded with Executioner rounds- all equipment that had already been detailed in previous books. So, the two easiest options for filling pages were naked Power-Creep (the absurd mega-shotgun), or swiping stuff from other RPGs- principally Dungeons & Dragons (Leatherwort...?). If an Editor worthy of the title had told said freelancer "This is crap- do better or we won't pay you", Book of Judgement and The Lathe Worlds might have sold well enough that DH supplements would still be coming out.



#26 Morangias

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 01:27 PM

You're making an assumption that the change introduced is supposed to keep DH power level comparable with that of Only War. It would have been a failure of design if it had been the goal all along, but I see no proof, explicit or implicit, that it's the case.

 

You're also ignoring an emergent trend in the sourcebooks since Blood of Martyrs. While you see the "naked power creep", you ignore what for a lack of better word I'll call "coolness creep" following. In the early days of the line, it was all about being a random, meaningless dude cast into the vast machine of the Inquisition. Even if you got an alternate rank or a background package, you were still pretty much the same random, meaningless dude, only now with some preset backstory and perhaps a small perk to show for it. Ever since BoM, the spotlight is on dudes who belong to important, elite organizations or were given elite Inquisition training, and have the skills and equipment to show for it. Now it's all about being a part of the Inquisition, a truly exceptional dude pulling his weight in this giant and tremendously powerful machine.

 

Practically speaking, we have two distinct "tiers" of playing DH now (Ascension notwithstanding): you can still play as the random assembly of random Acolytes, or you can play as the lean, mean task force carefully assembled by the Inquisition. The material for both playstyles is all over the place, but generally you have pre-BoM books offering most to the former playstyle and post-BoM books offering most to the latter.

 

I'll give to you that it does create a sort of conundrum due to not being spelled out clearly, and sticking to the old stuff while someone else in the team is rolling a Venator or a BoM-Battle Sister may not be the most fun play experience, but in a team consisting of, say, a Verispex Adept, a Venator, a Battle Sister and a Lathesmaster, I really don't think anyone would be truly overpowered.

 

Running this kind of game might not be your cup of tea, but it's a legitimate, fun playstyle, and again, the game doesn't actually break because of it.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

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#27 Adeptus-B

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 01:55 PM

Running this kind of game might not be your cup of tea, but it's a legitimate, fun playstyle, and again, the game doesn't actually break because of it.

 

I totally agree that playing Elites rather than Grunts is a legitimate playstyle- and I would argue that that is what upper Ranks and, yes, Ascension is for. I would have no complaints (well, fewer complaints) about Crimson Guard or Blood of Martyrs Sisters of Battle if they had been presented as Ascension-level options (-why has there been no official support for that supplement?), rather than being passed off as being balanced with other Rank 1 Careers.

 

-But you will never convince me that Leatherwort has any business appearing outside D&D! :P



#28 Morangias

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 03:10 PM

The thing about power creep is, it's inevitable in the line progressing for such a long time and made to support such vastly differing playstyles. Power creep has been the name of the game pretty much ever since Inquisitor's Handbook, and the general problem with DH is that it started by trying to make everything so low-key, the difference between the weakest and strongest available equipment is almost meaningless (I remember that before we got our hands on the errata, my players simply shrugged at Bolt weapons, as their slightly better damage and penetration didn't justify the higher ammo cost, inferior rates of fire and smaller magazines compared to SP weapons loaded with Manstoppers). Even the relatively small changes of switching to Rogue Trader weapon profiles turn out quite shockingly powerful compared to the DH baseline, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, as the DH baseline made entire categories of equipment obsolete by design - admit it, have you ever seen anyone being happy about a DH core or IH plasma weapon? Or those power armors with a few hours of battery life? I haven't.

 

That's another thing - a lot of the changes exist to bring stuff up to par with previously established fluff, and since 40k RPG still boasts the crossover compatibility (which is something of a high claim for how it actually works, but that's beside the point), making the Inquisition not look like a bunch of beggars compared to the likes of Rogue Traders or even possibly Deathwatch Marines is still a concern. It was virtually impossible to maintain any semblance of balance with earlier stuff while addressing this issue, and maintaining the relative power level established in core and IH was something of a design dead end - how many more models of boltgun could they think of that have one more point of damage but slightly shorter range and smaller magazine to compensate? And it's not like some of these apparently balanced options from IH didn't prove clearly superior upon closer scrutiny.

 

Also, what is it about Leatherwort that irks you so much? In this vast galaxy of assorted weirdness and randomly adapted sci-fi cliches, what's so out of place about a herbal compound that dulls the pain and reacts with the skin to make it harder? I can understand not liking the idea, or not liking the idea of stacking armor on top of armor (although in this case you're really late to the party, seeing how The Flesh is Weak has been around ever since RT Core), but just saying it's a D&D potion is really off-base. Or rather, it is a potion of armor in the same sense that Frenzon is the potion of heroism.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#29 Adeptus-B

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 09:28 PM

That's another thing - a lot of the changes exist to bring stuff up to par with previously established fluff...

 

Most of my complaints about the later DH supplements concern violations of fluff. Boltguns, for example, are universally portrayed as the premier Basic weapon in 40K- you are right about them being underpowered in DH (although this has been mitigated slightly by the addition of Tearing in the Errata); but the new weapons in the last few supplements don't correct this problem- they make them even more out of step with 40k lore. Now, boltguns are dwarfed by 'super shotguns' which do more damage than some heavy weapons, and 'magic lasguns' which do the same damage as boltguns without needing ammo... This doesn't 'bring DH more in line with the fluff', it takes it out of line with the fluff...



#30 Morangias

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:01 AM

Lasguns better than boltguns have always existed - see: hellguns and hot-shots. A new type that's actually stronger than basic lasguns but strictly weaker than boltguns doesn't violate anything.

 

That Arbites shotgun is clearly of Astartes caliber - check the Deathwatch errata for comparison. It's like Angelus boltgun, except not heretical because astartes shotgun slugs aren't sacred.

 

Again, what fluff violations?


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#31 Adeptus-B

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 09:02 AM

Lasguns better than boltguns have always existed - see: hellguns and hot-shots. A new type that's actually stronger than basic lasguns but strictly weaker than boltguns doesn't violate anything.

 

That Arbites shotgun is clearly of Astartes caliber - check the Deathwatch errata for comparison. It's like Angelus boltgun, except not heretical because astartes shotgun slugs aren't sacred.

 

Again, what fluff violations?

 

Sigh... Hellguns aren't portrayed as 'better' than boltguns in the fluff; they are just lasguns with better armour pen. And, according to the fluff, Arbites use combat shotguns (probably Best Quality in DH terms), loaded with Executioner rounds (detailed in Ascension); but that wouldn't fill new pages, so a hack writer pulled an 'Astares-caliber' shotgun out of his backside, fluff be damned.



#32 MorioMortis

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 09:52 AM

Sigh... Hellguns aren't portrayed as 'better' than boltguns in the fluff; they are just lasguns with better armour pen. And, according to the fluff, Arbites use combat shotguns (probably Best Quality in DH terms), loaded with Executioner rounds (detailed in Ascension); but that wouldn't fill new pages, so a hack writer pulled an 'Astares-caliber' shotgun out of his backside, fluff be damned.

 

Moreover, said shotgun can still be loaded with Executioner rounds, making it stronger than a plasma gun for a fraction of the price while still allowing for it to be used with other shotgun ammo if need be. Therein lies the issue; not only is the weapon not man-scaled (Astartes weaponry is not usable by normal humans, the Angelus is an exception because the weapon is entirely designed around the oversized bolt shell, and notably loses access to semi-automatic fire, while the ridiculous shotgun still keeps semi-auto fire), but the addition of what is essentially standard equipment for Arbites (Executioner shells), which already existed in the rules and the fluff, makes it downright ridiculous.

 

The same issue applies with the Crimson Guard; it is noticeably superior to the alternative option (the standard Guardsman) without sacrificing anything in return and while still being able to access the Guardsman's other toys; because it gets bonuses to what the Guardsman is already good at (direct combat) and negligible penalties to things the Guardsman is bad at (social interactions), it is essentially a direct upgrade. I mean, sure, Secutors can get more ridiculous through abuse of Machinator Array and Mining Helot augmentations, but a rank 1 alternate career shouldn't be rivaling an already very strong level 4 alternate rank.


Edited by MorioMortis, 17 July 2013 - 10:00 AM.

The stupid must be bashed upon the head with the Mallet of Wisdom until their heads are inflated with knowledge.

 

Words to live (and die) by : "I have officially Been out-rogue tradered!  As always, one must always assume that no matter how grand your plan is, it's never enough!" - RogalDorn1


#33 Morangias

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:29 AM

 

Lasguns better than boltguns have always existed - see: hellguns and hot-shots. A new type that's actually stronger than basic lasguns but strictly weaker than boltguns doesn't violate anything.

 

That Arbites shotgun is clearly of Astartes caliber - check the Deathwatch errata for comparison. It's like Angelus boltgun, except not heretical because astartes shotgun slugs aren't sacred.

 

Again, what fluff violations?

 

Sigh... Hellguns aren't portrayed as 'better' than boltguns in the fluff; they are just lasguns with better armour pen. And, according to the fluff, Arbites use combat shotguns (probably Best Quality in DH terms), loaded with Executioner rounds (detailed in Ascension); but that wouldn't fill new pages, so a hack writer pulled an 'Astares-caliber' shotgun out of his backside, fluff be damned.

I'd like to point out that the only reason you consider d10+9 damage on a shotgun a "fluff violation" is because another writer pulled lower damage values for both shotguns and bolters out of his backside in an earlier book.

 

 

 

Sigh... Hellguns aren't portrayed as 'better' than boltguns in the fluff; they are just lasguns with better armour pen. And, according to the fluff, Arbites use combat shotguns (probably Best Quality in DH terms), loaded with Executioner rounds (detailed in Ascension); but that wouldn't fill new pages, so a hack writer pulled an 'Astares-caliber' shotgun out of his backside, fluff be damned.

 

Moreover, said shotgun can still be loaded with Executioner rounds, making it stronger than a plasma gun for a fraction of the price while still allowing for it to be used with other shotgun ammo if need be. Therein lies the issue; not only is the weapon not man-scaled (Astartes weaponry is not usable by normal humans, the Angelus is an exception because the weapon is entirely designed around the oversized bolt shell, and notably loses access to semi-automatic fire, while the ridiculous shotgun still keeps semi-auto fire), but the addition of what is essentially standard equipment for Arbites (Executioner shells), which already existed in the rules and the fluff, makes it downright ridiculous.

Sorry, but unless you're comparing this shotgun to Black Crusade Plasma weapons, the comparison is meaningless because plasma weapons suck in all 40k RPGs except for BC and possibly DW after errata.

 

I'd also like to point out that while executioner shells may be standard issue for Arbites in fluff, they certainly aren't standard issue for DH characters.

 

The same issue applies with the Crimson Guard; it is noticeably superior to the alternative option (the standard Guardsman) without sacrificing anything in return and while still being able to access the Guardsman's other toys; because it gets bonuses to what the Guardsman is already good at (direct combat) and negligible penalties to things the Guardsman is bad at (social interactions), it is essentially a direct upgrade. I mean, sure, Secutors can get more ridiculous through abuse of Machinator Array and Mining Helot augmentations, but a rank 1 alternate career shouldn't be rivaling an already very strong level 4 alternate rank.

With the Tech-Priest getting free access to all the goodies the CG got, sometimes later on in the career but often at a fraction of the price, and with Machinator Array still being firmly in the hands of the Secutor, I'm 100% confident he's still above the Venator.

 

And yes, you're absolutely right - the guy is clearly stronger than the basic Guardsman - but then again, Guardsman is one of the weakest Careers in the corebook, and ever since alternate Ranks have appeared for it, I can think of no single one available that wouldn't be in some way better than the basic progression.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#34 Saldre

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 12:13 PM

For the very first line- on the arbitrary determination of fluff violation based on the previous shotgun... 

 

I am going to have to go with Adeptus on that one: the established standard has to be worked around, and the systems has to go around that. Putting up the original shotgun's damage at value 1d10+X [If that was indeed the very first weapon they worked at] should be the bar, or base value, that all of the others are worked around to keep in line with the fluff. Or just common sense. 

 

After all, the entire game has to work together. And even though balance isn't really an issue [some stuff clearly is better then other stuff], it was still handled badly - for example with the Plasma weapon. I don;t think that its a completely irrelevant point to bring because I find it DIRECTLY represents what Adeptus is talking about. 

 

WHY do Plasma weapons suck so much compared to a shotgun!? This should have been fixed- Instead of giving us brand new, even stronger shotguns. 

 

They fixed tearing on Bolters- where's the Autofire and maximal, minimal settings on Lasguns (Which are described constantly in Dan's Gaunt's Ghosts, the same author who is likely the Father of DH with Einsenhorn- years before Only War?)

 

Instead of that, we get a brand new Lazriffle, which is only usable with a very specific set of people, which is muuuch stronger than even a bolter- passing a toughness test or gain fatigue isn't that hard of a trick, especially with another talent which allows them to drain away fatigue by connecting themselves to some sort of power source. 

 

The powercreep thats "breaking" isn't very hard to achieve, because people aren't maintaining that consistency standard. 

 

We keep talking about the Crimson Guard, but I want to talk about the Cult of the Pureform as well. I want someone to explain how that thing works. 

 

The most I've gotten out of it is, if you somehow managed to loose two fate points in a single game where no reinforcements is possible, [by losing an arm and a leg for example], you then gain one extra fate point which ensures you survive the adventure to get back to civilization? But in any case, the damage is often is too extensive to have a character be playable in any meaningful away. At the very least the vat grown limbs should have been "Normal Quality" as they are blessed and pure, or "Best Quality" to make up for the fact that some things can't be vat grown so people are taking permanent damage for them.... 

 

See, how the devil does the Crimson Guard exist side by side with this thing in the books? Its two completely different classes- On one side, an "EXTREMELY" high tier rank 1 and... some sort of Masochistic Rpers Dream which really would cause a game, and a character, to crawl to a halt relatively quickly because the character is not forced to jump around on one leg and one arm for the remainder of his natural existence. 

 

[And lastly, the Lathemasters ability to make things work by hitting them. And they live in force-worlds. With Tech-priests. Maybe I missed something in the exact nature of how they hit thing, but if I tech-priest, I would take offence.] 

 

Edit- I've just thought of a way Crimson Guard could have been made into a higher ranking guardsman. Re-purposed servitor work :P Burning a fate point, and your reconstructed. Robo-cop style/Maltek Stalker. 


Edited by Saldre, 17 July 2013 - 12:17 PM.


#35 Morangias

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:40 PM



For the very first line- on the arbitrary determination of fluff violation based on the previous shotgun...

I am going to have to go with Adeptus on that one: the established standard has to be worked around, and the systems has to go around that. Putting up the original shotgun's damage at value 1d10+X [If that was indeed the very first weapon they worked at] should be the bar, or base value, that all of the others are worked around to keep in line with the fluff. Or just common sense.

The problem is, DH has crippled itself considerably by setting up the initial weapon stats the way it did. The engine is clearly capable of sustaining a much robust spread of numeric values, as evidenced by later systems in the 40k line. Not only that, but the game has practically used up all the preset design space somewhere between Inquisitor's Handbook and Radical's Handbook - how many different pistol models that differ by minimally switching up values do you need before reading weapon tables becomes boring?

After all, the entire game has to work together. And even though balance isn't really an issue [some stuff clearly is better then other stuff], it was still handled badly - for example with the Plasma weapon. I don;t think that its a completely irrelevant point to bring because I find it DIRECTLY represents what Adeptus is talking about.

In my experience with long RPG lines with robust mechanics, I've yet to find one where the metagame wasn't evolving significantly over the years to the point of obsoleting large parts of initial design. It's not a flaw - not the desired state of things either, but rather just the reality of roleplaying games.

WHY do Plasma weapons suck so much compared to a shotgun!? This should have been fixed- Instead of giving us brand new, even stronger shotguns.

I still firmly maintain one has no bearing on the other.

They fixed tearing on Bolters- where's the Autofire and maximal, minimal settings on Lasguns (Which are described constantly in Dan's Gaunt's Ghosts, the same author who is likely the Father of DH with Einsenhorn- years before Only War?)

Like I said - DH is so dated, it's sad.

Instead of that, we get a brand new Lazriffle, which is only usable with a very specific set of people, which is muuuch stronger than even a bolter- passing a toughness test or gain fatigue isn't that hard of a trick, especially with another talent which allows them to drain away fatigue by connecting themselves to some sort of power source.

First, it's not "pass Toughness or Fatigue", it's automatic level of Fatigue whenever their gun comes up with a Jam. And Electrical Succour, while pretty awesome indeed, isn't really usable in combat time, and that's when the Fatigue is going to happen - also, it's where it hurts the most.

The powercreep thats "breaking" isn't very hard to achieve, because people aren't maintaining that consistency standard.

Once again, I really don't think calling something that's superior to another option is gamebreaking. Vindicare, with his bajillion dodges at 120% is gamebreaking. A Primaris Psyker who can incinerate entire cities in minutes without breaking a sweat is gamebreaking. A guy that starts with a better gun and armor and can buy a few more Talents isn't gamebreaking, because he can still be challenged, and his presence doesn't preclude others from contributing, both in and outside of combat. A shotgun with better damage isn't gamebreaking, because it's not an "I win" button in any capacity - just a weapon that's better than most comparable weapons. It still needs ammo, it can still be lost, there are still enemies who can take a few hits from this baby and rip the user to shreds.


We keep talking about the Crimson Guard, but I want to talk about the Cult of the Pureform as well. I want someone to explain how that thing works.

The most I've gotten out of it is, if you somehow managed to loose two fate points in a single game where no reinforcements is possible, [by losing an arm and a leg for example], you then gain one extra fate point which ensures you survive the adventure to get back to civilization? But in any case, the damage is often is too extensive to have a character be playable in any meaningful away. At the very least the vat grown limbs should have been "Normal Quality" as they are blessed and pure, or "Best Quality" to make up for the fact that some things can't be vat grown so people are taking permanent damage for them....


I was recently pondering a theoretical build that would involve choosing a Career with access to Pure Faith, stacking on as many non-essential bionics as possible, then going Cult of the Pure Form and removing all of them for a nice boost in Fate Points. The ideal form would be a quadriplegic, mute and blind buffing machine. That could potentially be gamebreaking! ;)

See, how the devil does the Crimson Guard exist side by side with this thing in the books? Its two completely different classes- On one side, an "EXTREMELY" high tier rank 1 and... some sort of Masochistic Rpers Dream which really would cause a game, and a character, to crawl to a halt relatively quickly because the character is not forced to jump around on one leg and one arm for the remainder of his natural existence.

I think someone assumed (rather correctly, I'd say) that the ability to stack up on extra Fate Points can be extremely unbalancing, and then overreacted with the means to curb such abuse of the rules.

As it stands, the only real use I see for this Rank is for Discordians - when you can't have any cybernetics at all, being able to replace lost organs with even low quality replacements is still a godsend, and when you're a natural enemy of the Mechanicum by your very nature, having friends in a powerful, sector-spanning cult that hates the AdMech sounds like a good idea.

[And lastly, the Lathemasters ability to make things work by hitting them. And they live in force-worlds. With Tech-priests. Maybe I missed something in the exact nature of how they hit thing, but if I tech-priest, I would take offence.]

It's pretty explicit they don't use it when the Tech-Priests are watching. Also, they still think of it as a rite, so it's a rather minor heresy - something quite expected of the uneducated working classes :D

Edit- I've just thought of a way Crimson Guard could have been made into a higher ranking guardsman. Re-purposed servitor work :P Burning a fate point, and your reconstructed. Robo-cop style/Maltek Stalker.


This could explain why the PC has suddenly found himself outfitted with all the stuff this Career provides, but it doesn't in any way explain why the paranoid, secretive and downright clannish organization that is the Mechanicum chose to upgrade a random guy into their most elite fighting force.

Edited by Morangias, 17 July 2013 - 02:41 PM.

There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#36 Boss Gitsmasha

Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 12:52 AM

If you feel something's unbalanced, then don't use it. If you're the GM, ban it. When I ran Black Crusade (for that brief, unpleasant period of time) I was asked more than once by my players if they could have legacy weapons. I hate the rules for legacy weapons, personally, so I told them no, and that was the end of it.

 

Hopefully 2e will be a little less ridiculous than current DH is.


Edited by Boss Gitsmasha, 25 July 2013 - 12:55 AM.

"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."





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