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#21 Hank

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:06 PM

HLC are well worth thier hefty points, I wouldn't take Kath without marksmanship,  but other than just staying alive what will dark curse bring to the table?



#22 hothie

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:16 PM

A decision for my opponent, primarily. Who do you target first? The 10 hp ship passing out stress and/or crits? The 10 hp ship with HLC? or the 3 hp TIE that's very difficult to hit? If you're facing this list, who do you target?

Also, I'm pretty good at getting my TIEs in the way of the big ships. So if I face a large ship with higher than 6 Pilot Skill, I'm guessing I can get it in the way to take away actions. Or if nothing else it's a PS6 ship that will fire before many other ships and will likely last a while.

I'm not convinced that this list is better than my 2BH's with Dark Curse and AP, though, so it may be moot anyway.


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#23 DeadInkPen

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:32 PM

I do like your updated list a little bit more then others, though the 3 with VI was quite superb. Here is something I have tried out the last couple days against HSF:

Bobba+HLC+VI
Kath+Ion
Dark Curse

Game 1: I spent the first two turns moving up as slowly as I could, that way I could get a couple of range 3 shots off with the HLC and Ion. I was focusing on the support ships with the Ion and Dark Curse. Bobba was worried about the Falcon. Bobba shot first and got 3 shields off of Han. Han shot next and took one shield off Bobba. Kath went next with the Ion, two crits rolled X-wing got only 1 evade. So I was happy a stress and an Ion token on an X-Wing right on the first combat. Dark Curse went, nothing hit with him. The two rookies went and took 3 shields off of Kath. Round 3 I ended up with Kath right behind the rookie I Ioned and stressed at range 1 and managed to get dark curse in a shot position with out reprisal on the same rookie. With Bobba, I just did a low 45 turn.  This time I got the remaining two shields off the falcon plus two hit to his hull. Han took a shot at Dark Curse this time and got two hits in. Between Kath and Dark, the rookie went down. Round 4 - was a disengaging round for the rookie as he did a k-turn. I did 90 degree turns with all my ships getting ready for the next go around. Han shot and took out Dark Curse this round, Kath had a rear range 2 shot on Han only got one hit on that one. Round 5 - I got really lucky with Han sitting in a cross fire of Bobba and Kath. Bobba got 3 hits on him again, Han managed to hit kath poping her remaing shields and dealing 2 hits and one crit to her. Kath fired and her shot managed to deal enough damage to him to take him out. My oppent called it once he lost Han. 

Game 2: Wish this one would have went better for my opponent. He kept on landing on asteroids and even screwed up with his dial sending two of his ships off the mat. Wanted to get another game in against HSF, but he wanted to try another build against me running HSF.

I am thinking Kath with Ion is going to be up there with Turr with PtL in just sheer fun. Haven't gotten enough games in where I have gotten a sample of how this will do. What do you all think of that combo? One victory really doesn't leave me wanting to brag about it.



#24 ziggy2000

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 02:53 PM

DeadInkPen said:

I do like your updated list a little bit more then others, though the 3 with VI was quite superb. Here is something I have tried out the last couple days against HSF:

Bobba+HLC+VI
Kath+Ion
Dark Curse

I just plugged this into the squad builder and it came out at 104 points. Did I miss something?

 



#25 DeadInkPen

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 03:00 PM

Sorry I meant AP instead of Dark Curse. Was doing one that was Krassius instead of Bobba and that one had Dark Curse. 



#26 ziggy2000

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 03:25 PM

DeadInkPen said:

Sorry I meant AP instead of Dark Curse. Was doing one that was Krassius instead of Bobba and that one had Dark Curse. 

OK that makes sense then!

 



#27 hothie

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 04:03 PM

Zig you surprise me. I thought for sure you woud jump on the Kath vs Ion cannon interaction.

DeadInkPen, I hate to say it, but I don't think you're playing that one by the rules, either. I just looked through 14 pages of Rules threads on here (checked AFM, too), but I couldn't find it asked anywhere, so I may be wrong about this.

I think since Kath is the one attacking with the Ion Cannon, and the Ion Cannon card cancels the crit results, technically the defender isn't the one cancelling the results, so I don't think Kath's ability works in this case. Kath's card specifies if the defender cancels the result, and the Ion Cannon card says "suffers 1 damage…Then cancel ALL dice results." So, I don't think the ship would get a stress token from an Ion attack.

Otherwise, though, glad it played well for you. :) I may take another look at Boba with VI, as I did do okay with him. I just needed to have a better supporting cast.

And the invitation is still out for May 4th if you can make it. I'm not sure exactly how far the drive is for you, maybe too far, but lots of us are staying at hte Radisson.


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#28 ziggy2000

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 04:26 PM

hothie said:

 

Zig you surprise me. I thought for sure you woud jump on the Kath vs Ion cannon interaction.

DeadInkPen, I hate to say it, but I don't think you're playing that one by the rules, either. I just looked through 14 pages of Rules threads on here (checked AFM, too), but I couldn't find it asked anywhere, so I may be wrong about this.

I think since Kath is the one attacking with the Ion Cannon, and the Ion Cannon card cancels the crit results, technically the defender isn't the one cancelling the results, so I don't think Kath's ability works in this case. Kath's card specifies if the defender cancels the result, and the Ion Cannon card says "suffers 1 damage…Then cancel ALL dice results." So, I don't think the ship would get a stress token from an Ion attack.

Otherwise, though, glad it played well for you. :) I may take another look at Boba with VI, as I did do okay with him. I just needed to have a better supporting cast.

And the invitation is still out for May 4th if you can make it. I'm not sure exactly how far the drive is for you, maybe too far, but lots of us are staying at hte Radisson.

 

 

Oooooh, that's splittin' a hair… but you may be right. Better submit a question on that one.

Speaking of which, has anybody gotten any rulings lately from submitted questions? I know there are some other threads here awaiting some official rulings on contentious questions. Over on the card game forum the rulings usually come pretty fast, but there's been nothing here on some questions for a week or more. I wonder if they are getting ready to issue another FAQ before the Regionals season begins next week?

 



#29 DeadInkPen

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 05:13 PM

Hothie,

You may be right on that one. I thought it was going that the critial hit that was evaded was considered cancelled before calculating the hits that made it, then the Ion cannon's card text took over. Definately going to have to submit that as a question to FFG. Hopefully the delay is an updated FAQ. 

I really want to be there on the 4th, but I have to be at a local convention here for the weekend as I am in charge of a room. I only live about four hours away from there. I am definately planning on attending worlds this year. If you and Zig are there lets go out for a drink. Plus hopefully I will have my plastic manuever dials made up by then to show them to you.



#30 ziggy2000

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:26 PM

DeadInkPen said:

Kath went next with the Ion, two crits rolled X-wing got only 1 evade. So I was happy a stress and an Ion token on an X-Wing right on the first combat.

This was played right, and Kath's ability kicked in - the defender's evade cancelled a crit. I also think hothie has a point, if the evade had cancelled a regular hit and the Ion cancelled everything else, her ability would not have kicked in.

Sorry to not see you on May the Fourth, but hope to see you at Worlds - I'll claim that beverage. My biggest problem is that hothie is going to the same regionals I am - I'm not sure how much of a chance I'll have. My partner, though, has not lost to him yet! reir (dig)

 



#31 hothie

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 12:44 AM

Yeah, I think you played that right, given that scenario. In the "comparing dice results" step is when dice get cancelled, and it sounds like a crit was cancelled in that step. I thought you were cancelliing them from the Ion hit instead, but it sounds like you played it right if that was the case.

And I hope you have a good time at your con. We'll definitely have to get together at Worlds. And Zig is absolutely right. She is 3-0 against me, so I'm not the one you should be gunning for *waves hand*

But, on topic, I was thinking about Fett with VI last night, and came up with this:

 

Boba Fett with Veteran Instincts and Seismic Charge (42)
Bounty Hunter with HLC (40)
Mauler Mithel with Veteran Instincts (18)

 

That's a 10, 9, 3. Seismic charge is really nice on Fett because you already know where your opponent's ships are when you place it. I could put the HLC on Fett, but that gets to all of my eggs in one basket, and he becomes the target immediately. Putting HLC on the Bounty Hunter means I can lose 1 ship and still have 2 good attackers left. Mauler will likely go down first, but I try to get a trade for him before he goes. I kinda like this version. It combines many of the concepts I have been practicing with all in one squad.


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#32 hothie

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 04:24 PM

I keep practicing flying this squad, and I'm finding that I'm having a hard time with the Bounty Hunter moving first, but me wanting to keep him in the back for more effective HLC shots. I may have to change up my starting somehow so that he's facing sideways or something, so that Boba and MM can take a turn getting in front of him more easily. I dunno. I may get to play a practice game Thursday and see how it goes.

And I wanted to rant, and I will keep the rant on my thread so that I don't have to start another thread somewhere, and also those of you actually reading this will get to see my thinking on this issue. It regards TIEs with Stealth. I learned long ago that Stealth device WILL go away on whatever ship you have. It is nice thinking about TIEs with 4 (or more) defense dice, but you know what? Han can one-shot a TIE with or without Stealth Device. When you equip your TIEs with Stealth, now you are relying on good defense rolls, and in this game, the dice favor the attacker. It is just not a smart idea to rely on your defense to help you win matches with this game. I've rolled badly so many times with defense dice that I've learned not to rely on them at all, and instead go for offense. I see so many people thinking that just putting Stealth Device on their TIEs makes them invincible, and it just doesn't work. They will still go down with 3 hits. I see people building squads of Interceptors with Stealth Device, thinking that they are the best squad ever. And they have 12 hp. I only need to put 12 hits on you, and the game is over. And the dice favor the attacker. I dunno, I guess I've moved past the "I have a shiny new ship, how can I trick it out?" stage and moved onto the "Don't rely on defense" stage of playing. I guess I've learned the hard way that rolling 4 blanks on defense isn't all that hard to do.


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#33 ScottieATF

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:26 PM

hothie said:

I keep practicing flying this squad, and I'm finding that I'm having a hard time with the Bounty Hunter moving first, but me wanting to keep him in the back for more effective HLC shots. I may have to change up my starting somehow so that he's facing sideways or something, so that Boba and MM can take a turn getting in front of him more easily. I dunno. I may get to play a practice game Thursday and see how it goes.

And I wanted to rant, and I will keep the rant on my thread so that I don't have to start another thread somewhere, and also those of you actually reading this will get to see my thinking on this issue. It regards TIEs with Stealth. I learned long ago that Stealth device WILL go away on whatever ship you have. It is nice thinking about TIEs with 4 (or more) defense dice, but you know what? Han can one-shot a TIE with or without Stealth Device. When you equip your TIEs with Stealth, now you are relying on good defense rolls, and in this game, the dice favor the attacker. It is just not a smart idea to rely on your defense to help you win matches with this game. I've rolled badly so many times with defense dice that I've learned not to rely on them at all, and instead go for offense. I see so many people thinking that just putting Stealth Device on their TIEs makes them invincible, and it just doesn't work. They will still go down with 3 hits. I see people building squads of Interceptors with Stealth Device, thinking that they are the best squad ever. And they have 12 hp. I only need to put 12 hits on you, and the game is over. And the dice favor the attacker. I dunno, I guess I've moved past the "I have a shiny new ship, how can I trick it out?" stage and moved onto the "Don't rely on defense" stage of playing. I guess I've learned the hard way that rolling 4 blanks on defense isn't all that hard to do.

Even before i got the game home from Gencon my friends and I saw that high Agility scores are not a subsitiute for Shields.  You can and will "biff" in this game.  A "biffed" attack roll doesn't destroy the attacking ship, but a "biffed" defense roll will get you killed.  It is why I didn't ever agree with the Math-Wing discussions of Wave 1. 

I just had a conversation with my friend last week as how people take Stealth Device as a gaurentee.  I see players yank there hair out when they Stealth Device gets knocked out by a random throw away shot, but that's going to happen.  As you are saying it just isn't the best idea to stack defense and think yourself unhittable.  I think we played a game today where noone rolled more then 1 evade on any single roll. 

Only Shields and Hull can save you in the end.  Thats not to say the Stealth Device is bad, but it isn't an absolute. 

 



#34 Fabs

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 12:44 AM

ScottieATF said:

Only Shields and Hull can save you in the end.  Thats not to say the Stealth Device is bad, but it isn't an absolute. 

And the Evade action. Granted it's an action to assist defense when we're just discussing the game favours the attacker, but it's a guarenteed 1 hit absorbed, like a shield … that recharges every action.

I do like the synergy of Han Solo + Gunner/Luke being practically action independant, leaving the Millennium Falcon upgrade for defense. Hmm, maybe I should fly my Firesprays a bit more like that.



#35 Rogue 17

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 01:23 AM

I was flying a 4 interceptor squad with stealth trying to practice for regionals, and after playing about 12 games with and without stealth devices I was finding that the ships lasted just as long, about two hits, regardless who was flying, on average.  I dropped the stealths and just added in a 5 interceptor and now I have better results over the long term, more hits total and more shots fired for better results.  I love the idea of stealth devices, but for 3 pts I can find a more cost efficient option.



#36 Englishpete

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 07:53 AM

This is becoming my "Imperial List" of choice. It needs some flying time, but it has potential.


Total Squad Points: 100

Pilot: Academy Pilot 1
Tie Fighter (12)
Upgrades:

  • No Upgrades Selected


Pilot: Kath Scarlet
Firespray-31 (38)
Upgrades:

  • Marksmanship (3)
  • Mercenary Copilot (2)
  • Heavy Laser Cannon (7)


Pilot: Bounty Hunter 1
Firespray-31 (33)
Upgrades:

  • Gunner (5)


The Kath set up should allow me to pound on my enemy and/or stress them.

As I read it, you roll for the HLC and change any crits to hits. Then change any eyeballs with Marksmenship. Then I can apply the Merc co-pilot (range 3) to get a crit back, should make her quite nasty.

The Bounty Hunter takes his chances with the Gunner re-roll, but should not be underestimated and as you want to make range 1, moving early is OK.

The acadamy pilot is cannon fodder, but if ignored may get into a position at range 1 to annoy another ship from outside the opponents shooting arc.


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(Horatius: Captain of the Gate)


#37 hothie

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:48 AM

Englishpete said:

This is becoming my "Imperial List" of choice. It needs some flying time, but it has potential.


Total Squad Points: 100

Pilot: Academy Pilot 1
Tie Fighter (12)
Upgrades:

  • No Upgrades Selected


Pilot: Kath Scarlet
Firespray-31 (38)
Upgrades:

  • Marksmanship (3)
  • Mercenary Copilot (2)
  • Heavy Laser Cannon (7)


Pilot: Bounty Hunter 1
Firespray-31 (33)
Upgrades:

  • Gunner (5)


The Kath set up should allow me to pound on my enemy and/or stress them.

As I read it, you roll for the HLC and change any crits to hits. Then change any eyeballs with Marksmenship. Then I can apply the Merc co-pilot (range 3) to get a crit back, should make her quite nasty.

The Bounty Hunter takes his chances with the Gunner re-roll, but should not be underestimated and as you want to make range 1, moving early is OK.

The acadamy pilot is cannon fodder, but if ignored may get into a position at range 1 to annoy another ship from outside the opponents shooting arc.

From what I've found, and this is purely my own opinion, is that gunner is not as good as people think on a Firespray. Usually when I fly them, I take Target Lock, and that works just fine. You can make arguments for having a gunner, like if you get blocked, or taking the evade action instead, but usually Target Lock works just fine on a Firespray in place of a gunner. i think for the points, I'd rather upgrade the Academy Pilot to mauler or something to make him a little more offensive. Just my thoughts.


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#38 DeadInkPen

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:02 AM

Hothie,

I like enjoy how we have almost similar thought processes on some of these things. I completely agree with you on Stealth Device. I never really used it, because I prefer added mobility from playing RPGs and other tabletop games that allow it. I am a big fan of Engine Upgrade, but since I like the Imperial side of X-Wing a lot more its kind of useless with the barrel roll option. The best defence in this game is positioning not to be hit or hit by as limited number of ships as possible. I have used Engine Upgrade on the Rebel side to boost out of multiple fire arcs into one to two before. But I have faced a lot of people around my area who swear by Stealth Device, but none of them has won any of the local tournaments with a squad full of them. Have one guy who keeps on telling me well you could roll bad on an attack then I reply to him the same about defence and give him the break down of how the dice favor the attacker. He still hasn't learned even though his all stealth interceptor squad never wins. Though now he is doing Han with Biggs using R2F2 and Stealth and an A-wing.

Again I agree with you on the Gunner and Firespray. I was using that combo for a bit, but wasn't getting to use its ability all that often, so I ended up ditching it. Though I do question the use of Mercenary Co-pilot due to the limited use of his ability only being at range 3. Its a lot of work to stay at that range continuously. 

I would really enjoy having you or Zig try out that Kath and Bobba build I put up and give me your thoughts on it. 

 

 



#39 GenmaSeuss

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:22 AM

I just want to say.  Great thread. 

The Second thing is how can you guys possibly play this many games?  I'm lucky to get in two games a week.  Probably just where I live. 

 

 



#40 hothie

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 12:32 PM

DeadInkPen said:

Hothie,

I like enjoy how we have almost similar thought processes on some of these things. I completely agree with you on Stealth Device. I never really used it, because I prefer added mobility from playing RPGs and other tabletop games that allow it. I am a big fan of Engine Upgrade, but since I like the Imperial side of X-Wing a lot more its kind of useless with the barrel roll option. The best defence in this game is positioning not to be hit or hit by as limited number of ships as possible. I have used Engine Upgrade on the Rebel side to boost out of multiple fire arcs into one to two before. But I have faced a lot of people around my area who swear by Stealth Device, but none of them has won any of the local tournaments with a squad full of them. Have one guy who keeps on telling me well you could roll bad on an attack then I reply to him the same about defence and give him the break down of how the dice favor the attacker. He still hasn't learned even though his all stealth interceptor squad never wins. Though now he is doing Han with Biggs using R2F2 and Stealth and an A-wing.

Again I agree with you on the Gunner and Firespray. I was using that combo for a bit, but wasn't getting to use its ability all that often, so I ended up ditching it. Though I do question the use of Mercenary Co-pilot due to the limited use of his ability only being at range 3. Its a lot of work to stay at that range continuously. 

I would really enjoy having you or Zig try out that Kath and Bobba build I put up and give me your thoughts on it. 

 

 

The more I practice flying 2 firesprays, the more i think I'm going to put HLC on Boba instead of the Bounty Hunter. It's just extremely diffcult to keep the BH in back when he moves before Fett and still keep his actions. So, I should be able to play a practice game on Thursday, and I want to try putting the HLC on Fett and see how that runs.

So, your squad of Boba with HLC and VI is a good one. Kath and Ion is an interaction that we are discussing at length on the rules forums. The thing is, it's a very expensive combo for only dealing out 1 damage with a possibility of a stress as well. I mean it's cool when it works, but I don't think it will be enough to win games.  So I personally would drop Kath and Ion, but if it works for you, that's cool.

Here's what I plan on running Saturday:

Boba with Veteran Instincts, HLC, and Seismic Charge
Bounty Hunter
Mauler Mithel with Veteran Instincts

I've been practicing flying these 3 around, and I think it will work out better if the HLC is on Fett and I can keep him towards the back. And since the BH moves before Fett, there should be room for Fett to go when it's time for him to move.

And I saw EnglishPete talking about Soontir with PtL and Stealth. I mean, yes, he's a PS9 that's difficult to hit, but for 33 points, I'd rather have a BH that is 10 hp and can shoot behind him, and he can also be a big blocker for fett and Mauler. And he has the same attack dice as Fel with a much larger Range 1 area.

But, we'll see what happens on Saturday. I'll post a big write up on Sunday (won't be getting home til after midnight), and I'll try to remember to take pics if/when I can.


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