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#21 Exeviolthor

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 07:22 PM

"…To cut it short, I wasn't consulted on how I would react, and the other character pushed mine out of an airlock, with no chance for me to save myself."

 

Pompz1 the GM should never have allowed this to happen. He should at least give you a chance to roll perception before the other player could act on this.

I think that the other situation that you described is a perfect example on when to allow PvP to take place. When a player deviates from the playing style of the rest of the group (radical vs puritan) then a PvP should be allowed. The psyker should have known that it would be very likely that his character would be killed if found out. In our adventure most of the character are puritans (we also have a Sororitas there), but my player has recently become a nascent psyker. The other players do not know about this of course (even my character does not know it yet) so the fun is in trying to hide it for as long as possible.

Inevitably, they are going to fry me at some point… :)



#22 Darth Smeg

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:09 PM

This has (as most other things) been discussed before.

And as in that thread, I pointed out that "the rest of the group" do not have authority over the one who deviates from their group think. Only their Inquisitor does.

While I used the example of Psyker persecution, the argument is valid for anyone in the service of an Inquisitor. I quote the most relevant bits for your convenience:

"Then there is the issue of authority.

To put it shortly: they don't have it. Unless the acolytes Inquisitor has stated unmistakably that he wants his group to police the Psycher, and given them authority to terminate him upon suspicion, the acolytes do not have authority over the Psycher. All they can, and should, do, is to report their suspicions to their Inquisitor or superior in the chain-of-command.

No organization can exist where any member can exercise total authority, arbitrarily, on one of his peers. An officer in the army has no authority on other officers parallel to his own rank. He ONLY has authority over those BELOW him in the chain of command. You can't fire your co-workers, only your boss can do that. Even in a flat organization with no chain of command (like a doctors office with a few doctors in partnership) one person cannot exercise authority over another; decisions and disputes are settled by agreements, negotiations or by a board of executives.

In the 41s millennium, an Inquisitor cannot execute another for heresy. He has to bring him before a trial, a tribunal of his superiors in the Inquisition. Similarly, Acolytes cannot judge or execute each other, no organization could exist where such judgements were possible.

Psychers are a valuable resource. The rules of the Imperium dictate that Psychers not be burned as witches, but turned over to the Black ships. No Imperial authority is going to take kindly to servants who squander this resource! Killing a psycher is only really permissible when and if he poses a clear and present danger to the mission or the group, and he cannot be subdued with non-lethal force.

A summary execution of an Imperially sanctioned, Inquisition-serving psycher would be a transgression of an acolytes authority, a violation of Imperial Law, and an insult to his superiors who cleared the Psycher fit for duty, including his own Inquisitor.

Such an execution then, would be murder! Murder of the servants of the Imperium, especially that of the most Holy Inquisition, is Treason. Treason is the worst form of Heresy."


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#23 FieserMoep

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:55 AM

Darth Smeg said:

In the 41s millennium, an Inquisitor cannot execute another for heresy. He has to bring him before a trial, a tribunal of his superiors in the Inquisition. Similarly, Acolytes cannot judge or execute each other, no organization could exist where such judgements were possible.

I have to disagree here. An Inquisitor has no Law above him. The conklaves, Tribunals and Ranks like Lord Inquisitor (Exept the Representative of the Senate) are born out of respect, not law. An Inquisitor has the right to kill another Inquisitor and it happens more often than any kind of tribunal from what I can read in the Fluff and Novels.

If you are strong enough and your power base is well developed you can deal with the consequences of your doing that is what all is about. An Inquisitor is entiteld to kill one of his kind if he has proof of his guilt. This proof can be only instinct or real documents, it does not matter. Though other Inquisitors might check his reasons and he has to stand up for his decision.

Sector conklaves are some kind of check and balance but nothing mandatory. There is no overal structure of the inquisition beside their rank though in some sectors a conclave might have a long tradition for keeping order between the individal inquisitors. There are also other examples where an Inquisitor basicaly runs an entire sector alone though "officaly" there is still a conclave though. On the other hand there are Sectory without any conclaves at all.

This is what the Inquisition is about. It works outside the Law to save the Imperial Law. Though an Acolythe has not the status of an Inquisitor he is not what he was, with becoming an Akolythe he has become something different. And when one of the Cell becomes a threat to their objective they have to deal with that. And if their Inquisitor is a Puritan and their goal is to destroy a cult and their psyker is becomming possesd the first thing every man in his right mind would do is shoot him down and then shoot him again, burn him, collect its ash, burn it again seal it in a box with holy symbols and hand it over to the inquisitor with a salute. Or make it look like an accident…

Darth Smeg said:

A summary execution of an Imperially sanctioned, Inquisition-serving psycher would be a transgression of an acolytes authority, a violation of Imperial Law, and an insult to his superiors who cleared the Psycher fit for duty, including his own Inquisitor.

The Imperial Law forces you to kill the witch. It is of no matter wheter this witch was educated (sanctioned) or not when you have the slightes suspicion that he might be corrupted. The danger of one psycer gone rogue justifies the execution of thousands of other for one psyker can literaly doom an entire world.

Darth Smeg said:

Such an execution then, would be murder! Murder of the servants of the Imperium, especially that of the most Holy Inquisition, is Treason. Treason is the worst form of Heresy."

Murder is okay as long as it was justified. An Inquisitor can always get a new Psyker with ease, hunting down a Psyker that has recieved knowledge more powerfull than he should have while he served the inquisition is an annoyance.



#24 Darth Smeg

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:21 AM

FieserMoep said:

I have to disagree here. An Inquisitor has no Law above him. The conklaves, Tribunals and Ranks like Lord Inquisitor (Exept the Representative of the Senate) are born out of respect, not law. An Inquisitor has the right to kill another Inquisitor and it happens more often than any kind of tribunal from what I can read in the Fluff and Novels.

If he has no Law that binds him, then he has no Rights. Neither does he have any restrictions placed upon him, and what you have is Anarchy.

In practice, I agree that an Inquisitors authority is defined by his power, and thus his ability to enforce his will. But as most Inquisitors derive their power through influence, they're not going to risk upsetting their peers and superiors by ignoring traditions and agreements that bind them.

And these Tribunals have the power to excomunicate Inquisitors, and label them Traitoris Extremis (or whatever the title is), which is basically a "Wanted: Dead or Alive" notice. If that's not Law, then nothing is.

FieserMoep said:

 

The Imperial Law forces you to kill the witch. 

You just made the point that the Inquisition is above the law.

And If by "witch" you mean (unsanctioned) psyker, you are wrong. Imperial Law decrees that Psykers are collected and renedered as Tithe to the Black Ships. Killing them is in fact against the law.

If by witch you mean sorceror, then by all means: Kill away. Foul chaos worshipers, the lot of 'em.


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#25 FieserMoep

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 05:45 AM

Darth Smeg said:


If he has no Law that binds him, then he has no Rights. Neither does he have any restrictions placed upon him, and what you have is Anarchy.

What most people do not get is that Anarchy is per definition no state of chaos. It is a system of self-regulaton that favors communitys that work in the exakt same way as the inquisitorial conclaves and ordos do. To be strong people unite not because a nation demands it but because they share the same ideas and believes - so they are all equall. This also accounts for the inquisitorial factions for example. There is no other law than helping your own community and on the other hand benefit from it. This is the system the Inquisition uses. The balance is keept by gather people like you to stand up against single oprressors that my try to destroy you with their might and this is how the conclaves work. They can unite and strike single inquisitors that do not follow THEIR rules. But these rules are not made of the imperium, they are made by them. And if a single Inquisitor becomes so powerfull he can destroy an entire conclave he might do it. Why? Because he can. And the status of Traitoris Extremis is just a formal status in that community. No inquisitor is forced to follow it. It is basically nothing more than saying "This guy is bad". What you do is complelty up to the individual though they might punish others that do not follow their made up rules.

Darth Smeg said:

If by witch you mean sorceror, then by all means: Kill away. Foul chaos worshipers, the lot of 'em.

I used witch not as a specification on a particual group, I used it as an insult for this is what the vast population thinks off psykers. A mark of sanctioning is only preventing imperial psykers form getting executed on sight but it does not raise their social status. The complete imperial creed demands to kill the witch and I bet that if it would be fully released there is no line like this "Kill the witch, but before that check their ID for the case he is a sanctioned abomination." Psykers are toleratey for they are usefull. They are basicaly nothing else than tools that need to be abused or terminated. The danger of tolerating the slightest sign of corruption might lead to consequences beyond imagination. They are everything the faithfull hate and the right minded fear compressed into one person, a brilliant target to aim their hate. And the thing is their hate is not without reason. They do not understand what they are but that does not make them more simpathetically, it is the complete different, people hate the unknown and dangerous especialy if it could kill their entire family with one blink. And those that know more, like Akolythes of the Inquisition, know where this might lead to. As a puritan I would not sleep without an open eye on a psyker, if he is doing something wrong he has to stand up for it more than anyone else. And if it is warp-related he can consider himself quite happy to get a second chance. Radicals might be more tollerate but heck, they are radicals and mostly their status as Inquisitors keeps them save though their akolythes do not have this bonus. if they get "accidantly" shot by a puritan cell: bad luck.






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