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Specialist weapons, standard kit? ammo?


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#21 Cryhavok

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 05:59 AM

Graey said:

My personal solution to the hellgun/hot-shot lasgun thing was simply to treat it as a complex battery/charge pack change, whith the pack amplifying/modifying the output for consistent performance. I've been following that issue since DH, and between that, and looking up Storm Trooper fluff (three wikis, two codeces, and the Munitorum manual), that's likely the easiest explanation.

I like this. It wraps the problem up nicely and avoids having to house rule it. The weapon can still use the standard las packs lkke the rules say, but the player still has to lug around the 10kg pack. It may not be 100% fluff canon, but it fits nicely, so I like it. Thanks.

#22 Blood Pact

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 04:52 AM

Where does it say that Hellguns (the whole Hot-Shot Lasgun sounds stupid, and always will. Stupid 2nd Ed terminology) can take the normal charge packs that lasguns to? Because even if so, they certainly shouldn't provide the same amount of shots.



#23 Kiton

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 06:10 AM

Way back in Dark Heresy the Voss-Pattern had that option at a quarter capacity. 1d10+4 pen 4 I believe, though, for that gun. Pretty close to today's Overload settings in performance but at least it wasn't unreliable.

And that's it. Far as I know it never was mentioned again.

The 10kg pack the Type XIV has is good for 200, not 30 shots, depending on how well maintained it is and its power settings. That's a massive difference with what we have in the weapon tables, albeit still far less weight-efficient than carrying three and one third charge packs for a lasgun. It also implies they're variable in some way and that perhaps quality should affect ammo use in energy weapons.



#24 exseraph

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 07:02 AM

Blood Pact said:

The backpack is factoring heavy weapons. You're right, it's great for autocannons, but it sucks for autoguns, because the ammo count for solid projectile weapons is set to balance against the autocannon. And yeah, it's only 80 lasgun shots. But how about lascannons?

While the problem could 'simply' be solved by expanding the list of weapons and the numbers of shots it provides for them, the whole thing begins to get a bit too much when it's taking up more and more of a column.

A houserule solution to the backback ammo supply conundrum would be to say that it carries 20 kg worth of ammo (the other 5kg being electrical feeds/ammo belts/whatever). You could calculate this based on a magazine having 10% of the mass of the weapon, which I think is stated somewhere in the rules.

So, for a 55kg lascannon, this would be 5.5 kg for a charge pack. Its charge packs have 5 shots, or 1.1 kg a shot, so it could hold 18 shots. That seems reasonable; it's more than normal but not inexhaustible. To some extent, this is helped by the fact that more damaging weapons seem to be heavier, even when they appear to be similar sizes.

The potential problem with this is that for a 5kg weapon like a lasgun, this is 40 magazines, or twenty-four hundred shots - almost as much capacity as a handgun in an action movie. But, you'd achieve a similar effect (and a similar weight) if you just had a huge satchel full of charge packs (except for reloading times), and I'm not sure that a lasgun with almost inexhaustible ammo is really that game-breaking.



#25 Kiton

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:19 PM

Given the backpack is probably built for a specific type of ammunition [or at the very least you can't stuff a flamer-fuel pack full of bullets] its probably perfectly fine if one's willing to obtain it for their lasgun instead of getting, say, a better weapon. 2400 lasgun shots is incredible… but its still lasgun shots*.

Although if that thing blows, that's gotta be spectacular.

 

Probably all works out better with 15kg backpacks anyways: 13 lascannon shots or 1995 lasgun shots.

Now imagine the horrible troubled regiment feeding all ten lasguns from one pack, cables all leading to the carrier…

 

Edit: given the lasgun's 4kg we're actually looking at 62.5 magazines worth: that's 3750 shots, 3333 for a triplex or long-las, or a whopping 4285 bullpup lasgun shots. A multilaser would be looking at 100/3.5*25 or 714 shots per 25kg backpack…

Perhaps a basic ammo weight per category and type would be better suited to by-weight backpacking…



#26 Kasatka

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 09:17 PM

Kiton said:

Given the backpack is probably built for a specific type of ammunition [or at the very least you can't stuff a flamer-fuel pack full of bullets] its probably perfectly fine if one's willing to obtain it for their lasgun instead of getting, say, a better weapon. 2400 lasgun shots is incredible… but its still lasgun shots*.

Although if that thing blows, that's gotta be spectacular.

 

Probably all works out better with 15kg backpacks anyways: 13 lascannon shots or 1995 lasgun shots.

Now imagine the horrible troubled regiment feeding all ten lasguns from one pack, cables all leading to the carrier…

 

Edit: given the lasgun's 4kg we're actually looking at 62.5 magazines worth: that's 3750 shots, 3333 for a triplex or long-las, or a whopping 4285 bullpup lasgun shots. A multilaser would be looking at 100/3.5*25 or 714 shots per 25kg backpack…

Perhaps a basic ammo weight per category and type would be better suited to by-weight backpacking…

With maths like this it is clear that the backpack ammo option is just broken as it currently stands and needs to be replaced with a backpack that lists shots not just per type of weapon (las, sp etc) but also class of weapon (las pistol, sp basic etc) and have variable weights dependant on the weapon in question - backpacks for pistols may only hold 5 or 6 clips but wouldn't weight al that much, whereas a backpack for a heavy stubber or meltagun would.

It might take up more space but considering it'd only be added in an errata at this stage it's not like FFG have printing space and costs to consider…

 


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#27 Savage

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 09:20 PM

Lord Steel said:

Well I may be mis understanding what you mean by Kit but if you are talking about stuff like "1 Uniform (field), 1 set of Poor weather gear. etc" I think the reason they left much of the details on such things out is that they are pretty unimportant … pretty self explanitory … simply did not merit page space due to being unimportant/self explanitory.

 

The same items, or very similar items, can be found on Pages182-183 of the Inquisitor's Handbook. 

Are you seriously suggesting that the items which make up an Infantryman's basic gear are worthy of descriptions and weights in a game about the Inquisition, but are somehow less important in a game that is actually about the Imperial Guard?

Seriously?



#28 Droma

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 09:53 PM

Well I found an answer to at least one of my original questions.

Specialist equipment is NOT part of the standard regimental standard kit and ammo for and replacements for specialist equipment must be aquired through logistics.

Page 161 under Logistics, fourth paragraph.
"For game purposes, any equipment—whether acquired through legitimate or underhanded means—apart from the standard kit falls under the umbrella of the Logistics system. This includes gear issued to specialists as well as equipment specific to a mission…"

Edit: After doing some thinking I believe that ammo for specialist weapons should be included in mission assignment gear. This should ensure it's available the majority of the time.



#29 Savage

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 11:13 PM

Droma said:

Well I found an answer to at least one of my original questions.

Specialist equipment is NOT part of the standard regimental standard kit and ammo for and replacements for specialist equipment must be aquired through logistics.

Page 161 under Logistics, fourth paragraph.
"For game purposes, any equipment—whether acquired through legitimate or underhanded means—apart from the standard kit falls under the umbrella of the Logistics system. This includes gear issued to specialists as well as equipment specific to a mission…"

Edit: After doing some thinking I believe that ammo for specialist weapons should be included in mission assignment gear. This should ensure it's available the majority of the time.

Oh, GOOD SPOT !

Although… I personally completely and ferociously disagree with specialists having to use the logistics system to replace what for them should be standard equipment.

So… While you have found the paragraph that proves the game's writers intended otherwise, I'll still be counting the specialists' equipment as standard issue and allowing them to replace/replenish it as normal. 

'Cause I'm a nice GM :)



#30 Lord Steel

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 08:01 AM

Savage said:

Lord Steel said:

 

Well I may be mis understanding what you mean by Kit but if you are talking about stuff like "1 Uniform (field), 1 set of Poor weather gear. etc" I think the reason they left much of the details on such things out is that they are pretty unimportant … pretty self explanitory … simply did not merit page space due to being unimportant/self explanitory.

 

 

 

The same items, or very similar items, can be found on Pages182-183 of the Inquisitor's Handbook. 

Are you seriously suggesting that the items which make up an Infantryman's basic gear are worthy of descriptions and weights in a game about the Inquisition, but are somehow less important in a game that is actually about the Imperial Guard?

Seriously?

Well short answer is ….Pretty Much., Long Answer is that I can see why in a the Inquistion Game this is the case both from a story view and a buisness view. in the story view these items could be vitally important for some disguise, or as evidence and also the a normal Inquistorial agent actually has a bit more time to worry about these things where as a IG grunt is either in a state of Bordom and not paying attention to the bits and bobs of his kit (till inspection time that is then he panics) or in  state of getting shot at and there for REALLY not caring about his kit (his CLIPS however…). i do know that this is a bit of a stretch but it make sense. Buisness view is that FF placed all this stuff down in the Hand book which came out before most of the other settings I think and then saw that most folks didn't bother over much with these items and figured that in future products these items could be glossed over and they could save some money on printing costs, Per unit these saving are not much but in bulk I am sure that this could add up to a nice chunk of change.



#31 Bracken Alistair

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 02:06 PM

Savage said:

Lord Steel said:

 

Well I may be mis understanding what you mean by Kit but if you are talking about stuff like "1 Uniform (field), 1 set of Poor weather gear. etc" I think the reason they left much of the details on such things out is that they are pretty unimportant … pretty self explanitory … simply did not merit page space due to being unimportant/self explanitory.

 

 

 

The same items, or very similar items, can be found on Pages182-183 of the Inquisitor's Handbook. 

Are you seriously suggesting that the items which make up an Infantryman's basic gear are worthy of descriptions and weights in a game about the Inquisition, but are somehow less important in a game that is actually about the Imperial Guard?

Seriously?

Also, keep in mind that Inquisitor's Handbook is a splatbook not a core rulebook. Almost 70% (give or take) is devoted to equipment stats and descriptions because the rules are already described in DH core rules. When Hammer of the Emperor comes out I guess there will be tons of fluff descriptions there that couldnt fit in the core rules.



#32 Lord Steel

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 09:23 PM

that is a very good point, i mean in the RT game in order to really be able to somethings (Warp travel, Ship Building and combat, Creation of planets and systems) with a bit of finess you need to buy the Splat Books. You could culdge something together using the main rules but it would look as pretty nor be as well made. So it could be a case of the Core book being dedicated towards just giving you everything you need to get things running and waiting for splat books to round off the rough spots (like tank combat and how much ammo a tank can lug around.)

 

This is kinda the point I start mutting unkind things about the makers of DnD and the lousy presadent they set.



#33 Droma

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 12:04 AM

Savage said:

Lord Steel said:

 

Well I may be mis understanding what you mean by Kit but if you are talking about stuff like "1 Uniform (field), 1 set of Poor weather gear. etc" I think the reason they left much of the details on such things out is that they are pretty unimportant … pretty self explanitory … simply did not merit page space due to being unimportant/self explanitory.

 

 

 

The same items, or very similar items, can be found on Pages182-183 of the Inquisitor's Handbook. 

Are you seriously suggesting that the items which make up an Infantryman's basic gear are worthy of descriptions and weights in a game about the Inquisition, but are somehow less important in a game that is actually about the Imperial Guard?

Seriously?



1. They really aren't that important.
2. They will vary extremely heavily depending on the regiment so a generic description doesn't really work.

The following are lacking an entry in the armoury section of the book.

rucksack/slingbag
basic tools
mess kit and canteen
blanket and sleep bag
grooming kit
cognomen tags
rations

All of these are going to vary heavily depending on where they are from. A grooming kit for a deathworlder is not going to be the same as one from a noble born regiment.. They aren't going to eat the same type of rations, etc.

Page 197 assumes small generic items are readily available and you can come up with your own descriptions and weights for things if you care to. Most of it probably wont have a weight or at most a kg or two.

They listed things that are important, ie things that alter the rules in some way or provide a mechanical benefit. Everything else is left up to player and GM description. Which is ok.



#34 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:19 AM

I want to know if the Sergeant's laspistol replaces his Main Weapon (or if the chainsword does). Since that's his standard loadout in TT. And I assume the other classes don't get the standard WW on top iof their ripper gun/flamer/bolt pistol.



#35 Droma

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:28 PM

bogi_khaosa said:

I want to know if the Sergeant's laspistol replaces his Main Weapon (or if the chainsword does). Since that's his standard loadout in TT. And I assume the other classes don't get the standard WW on top iof their ripper gun/flamer/bolt pistol.



I'm not sure what WW means but specialist equipment is on top of their standard regimental gear, so the laspistol/chainsword of the sergeant doesn't replace anything it's simply extra equipment.



#36 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 05:47 PM

Droma said:

I'm not sure what WW means but specialist equipment is on top of their standard regimental gear, so the laspistol/chainsword of the sergeant doesn't replace anything it's simply extra equipment.

This would imply that  ogryns get a lasgun. And Commisars get a lasgun as well. Maybe they do (I dunno) but they don't in TT as standard.

I actually don't see any rules on this in the book, so I'm going to go with "Specialist Weapons replace equivalents in standard regimental kit." So if you are a stormtrooper, you replace your lasgun (or whatever the standard regimental weapon is) with your hotshot lasgun -- you don't get any extra gun. Ditto the Ratling and Priest.

WW should have been "MW" -- Main Weapon. You have a Main Weapon and 1 or 2 sidearms (usually a pistol and melee weapon),



#37 Droma

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:12 PM

bogi_khaosa said:

Droma said:

 

I'm not sure what WW means but specialist equipment is on top of their standard regimental gear, so the laspistol/chainsword of the sergeant doesn't replace anything it's simply extra equipment.

 

 

This would imply that  ogryns get a lasgun. And Commisars get a lasgun as well. Maybe they do (I dunno) but they don't in TT as standard.

I actually don't see any rules on this in the book, so I'm going to go with "Specialist Weapons replace equivalents in standard regimental kit." So if you are a stormtrooper, you replace your lasgun (or whatever the standard regimental weapon is) with your hotshot lasgun -- you don't get any extra gun. Ditto the Ratling and Priest.

WW should have been "MW" -- Main Weapon. You have a Main Weapon and 1 or 2 sidearms (usually a pistol and melee weapon),



You may want to read page 164, paragraphs 5-7. Everyone is issued all equipment from the standard kit even if it may be redundent or never used. In the worst case it's fallback equipment should their equipment of choice get damaged, lost, traded, stolen, etc.



#38 Doomedpaladin

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:54 AM

Page 190 has rules for Weapon Customisation that bug me because of what is or is not a part of a kit. It claims that a Guardsmen never has an opportunity to personalise a weapon that isn't part of his  standard kit or a regimental favored weapon, right after saying that such adjustments stem from the constant use of their primary weapon. So a Ratling Sniper's specialist rifle somehow ISN'T his primary weapon? My Commissar uses her bolt pistol and chainsword almost exclusively, and being what she is, might never alter them. The sword was destroyed by a powersword however, which I looted. So after having the Techpriest reconsecrate it and getting trained in power weapons she has no problems customising it to help her serve the God-Emperor. My GM allowed this (and armor (2) for a customised Commissars Cap too), but the rules are very confusing on the issue. I hope this gets cleared up in future supplements (allowing customisations only on weapons you're trained in?) and maybe armor and vehicle customisations could get added too.



#39 Droma

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 04:54 PM

Yes the whole weapon customization section could use some work. As it stands it's pretty useless for most players.



#40 Kasatka

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:09 AM

Honestly i don't see the issue - my group has been ruling (i don't know if incorrectly as FFG STILL hasn't sorted a FAQ/Errata) that any piece of gear that is granted from your 'class' is added into your standard kit and thus can be modified and is always available etc.


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