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Don't like the CFB, going back to attack cards


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#21 dwightsboardgame

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:27 PM

Nevermind. I guess I've been playing it wrong. That seems like a silly rule.



#22 The Schaef

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 11:44 AM

Can't say I've really seen this problem.  Granted, we don't game the basestars in the same way, but that's not a gamebreaker for us.

 

For starters, the pursuit track tends to be more enticing than the power it grants.  Even without the ability to launch ships onto the main board, you can use the fleet board to place civvies on the main board and raiders on the fleet board.  Then, even without the launch, the next time the Cylons jump in, you can wipe out a bunch of civvies, and/or auto-pass the roll to damage Galactica.  And in their rush to hit the fleet board, people often forget that the regular Cylon locations can still mess with the crisis or destination deck.

 

And between digging for cards without jump icons and rolling on the fleet board, the Cylons can aim to slow down the human jump rate.  With or without a crippled basestar on the main board, time in this game plays to the Cylons' favor; every turn they're not jumping, they're resolving more crises which you can game for resource loss.  And if they rush to jump the fleet, then your basestar comes off the board and you can jump in a squad of cylons again, if not all of them.  So even if they jump, you advance your agenda.

 

We have found that the Fleet Board gives the Cylons more and better options to wreak havoc, as opposed to twiddling their thumbs waiting for a fleet card to show up so that they can use one of only four total options (assuming the original locations where the Rez Ship is open).  For the Cylons, the ships on the board is just one piece of the puzzle: the prime directive for them is to slow the game down, just as it is for humans to jump as far as possible, as fast as possible.  If they bog the game down, the ships will jump in sooner or later, and the real key is how to take advantage of this shift in resources.



#23 dakuth

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 06:48 PM

Can't say I've really seen this problem.  Granted, we don't game the basestars in the same way, but that's not a gamebreaker for us.
 
For starters, the pursuit track tends to be more enticing than the power it grants.  Even without the ability to launch ships onto the main board, you can use the fleet board to place civvies on the main board and raiders on the fleet board.  Then, even without the launch, the next time the Cylons jump in, you can wipe out a bunch of civvies, and/or auto-pass the roll to damage Galactica.  And in their rush to hit the fleet board, people often forget that the regular Cylon locations can still mess with the crisis or destination deck.

 
Ok so issues I have here:
1. You say that the pursuit track may not be that because the other options the bridge may be even MORE powerful. So even less reason to visit anywhere by the bridge?
2. I'm not sure people FORGET that they can mess with the crisis or destination deck... I think they choose not to, because the basestar bridge is so much more powerful
 
 

And between digging for cards without jump icons and rolling on the fleet board, the Cylons can aim to slow down the human jump rate.

 
Or they could just use the basestar, since it has a - is it 50-50? - chance of reversing the jump track. It's incredibly powerful for exactly the reasons your listing.
 

With or without a crippled basestar on the main board, time in this game plays to the Cylons' favor; every turn they're not jumping, they're resolving more crises which you can game for resource loss.  And if they rush to jump the fleet, then your basestar comes off the board and you can jump in a squad of cylons again, if not all of them.  So even if they jump, you advance your agenda.


Humans would be foolish to "slow down" just because they have a crippled basestar, yes. But they can just continue to play "normally." So essentially they get an entire jump cycle without any fear of cylon attack. They rush the jump, as normal, and yes - that means you can now get the fleet in, but it also means the humans are 1-3 distance closer to the end of the game. I rather think the humans luck out in that particular match-up.
 

We have found that the Fleet Board gives the Cylons more and better options to wreak havoc, as opposed to twiddling their thumbs waiting for a fleet card to show up so that they can use one of only four total options (assuming the original locations where the Rez Ship is open).  For the Cylons, the ships on the board is just one piece of the puzzle: the prime directive for them is to slow the game down, just as it is for humans to jump as far as possible, as fast as possible.  If they bog the game down, the ships will jump in sooner or later, and the real key is how to take advantage of this shift in resources.

I have found it actually reduces the cylons options. Superficially, it appears to give more, but since the fleet board is the only logical choice (since the goal is to slow down the humans, moving the pursuit track is by far the best option, unless a weak fleet is close to invading... in that case, as you said, dropping more civvies or raiders on the board are the best option... still at the bridge) then the three original (well, Pegasus) locations provide more options. 

 

To counter my own argument, though, I admit that without the fleet board, the situation usually dictates what the cylon should do, so there's not much decision making. With the fleet board the cylon usually has a few suitable options (even if it is "which other fleet bridge option should I choose after manipulating the pursuit track.") I still find, personally, being a revealed cylon to be very boring. I keep playing because anything BUT a revealed cylon is incredibly fun. I hate that once every now and again I'm caught out early, and have to spend the rest of the game mostly-watching.

 
The main point, though, is how silly it all is. As I said, there is plenty of strategy involved with all this... but it is just so dumb that the humans cheer when a single basestar shows up, because now they have a much-less-dangerous jump cycle, when logically it should be more dangerous.
 
The main point is how silly it is that cleaning up civilians is so trivial, so now raiders only get to civilians in an all-or-nothing situation. Mostly, they spend their time attacking galactica.
How silly it is that there is almost no point to use the other cylon locations because the basestar bridge is so powerful and flexible.
 
I question the balance, but my main beef is with the blatant gaming and sillyness.


Edited by dakuth, 04 July 2013 - 06:59 PM.


#24 The Schaef

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 08:54 AM

Ok so issues I have here:
1. You say that the pursuit track may not be that because the other options the bridge may be even MORE powerful. So even less reason to visit anywhere by the bridge?
2. I'm not sure people FORGET that they can mess with the crisis or destination deck... I think they choose not to, because the basestar bridge is so much more powerful

 
I'm confused.  I thought your complaint was that adding the CFB weighed the game heavily in the humans' favor.  Now you're saying it's so powerful there's no reason to go anywhere else?
 
"Or they could just use the basestar, since it has a - is it 50-50? - chance of reversing the jump track. It's incredibly powerful for exactly the reasons your listing."
 
And here, after saying that the humans could control the Fleet Board and keep the Cylons away forever, you're saying the Cylon location to manipulate the tracks is very powerful?
 
"So essentially they get an entire jump cycle without any fear of cylon attack."
 
But that operates under the premise that the only danger the Cylons pose is by attacking with their fleet.  It's only one of several different pressures, all of which are being applied simultaneously.  Previously you pooh-poohed the ability to mess with crisis or destination, but burying a 3 distance and leaving them with crummy alternatives means they have to go through an extra jump cycle.

 

"The main point is how silly it is that cleaning up civilians is so trivial, so now raiders only get to civilians in an all-or-nothing situation. Mostly, they spend their time attacking galactica."

 

Why on earth would you want ANY ships attacking Galactica?  Using the very concepts I outlined above, I have had situations where I used Cylon Fleet to activate raiders and get like 20 shots at Galactica.  Even at their low rate to hit, the law of averages large numbers was in my favor and I notched a Cylon win on Galactica damage.  With raiders.

 

The SOP in our group is to escort all-but-one civvie and make the raiders chase it around the board and then deal with Vipers when they arrive.

 

How silly it is that there is almost no point to use the other cylon locations because the basestar bridge is so powerful and flexible.

 

Assuming you're right, how much "point" is there to use the Cylon locations without the Basestar Bridge?  If they're that useful to you, you would use them regardless.  And if the Bridge is so much a better choice, that doesn't reconcile with the idea that the humans are winning all the games.

 

It is as you said before: being a revealed Cylon gives you limited ways to act out because your decisions are largely driven by the situation on the board.  But once you're revealed, I don't see how it's worse to have nine different things you can do instead of just three, even with a lot of overlap.  To me, that makes it more interesting to be revealed, just as having the CAG role makes the pilot more interesting to play.

 

In addition to the example I gave above:

 

In a recent game we had two heavies launch early and as the CAG I started to panic a little bit, but they spent half the game off the board and the other half not being activated by a crisis card.  But even with the fleet under control and civvies managed and morale and fuel doing wonderfully, we got hammered on food and lost.

 

In another game we had Centurions get on the board after the turn, and the humans couldn't get rid of them.  With two revealed Cylons on the same side of the table, Cylon Fleet turned the game into a death march.  Why would I give a crap about the fleet pursuit track when the Centurions could streak across the board?

 

The point is: in our experience, having the Fleet Board has a). not resulted in a tilt in favor of the humans and b). has not turned the Fleet Board into the exclusive destination for revealed Cylons.  And frankly, if we played more games withOUT Pegasus, I imagine the Cylons would have even more of an advantage because the humans lose their damage soaker.  It doesn't seem worth trading it away for a dozen or so cards in a stack of 130, basically cutting the occurrence of those cards in half from the base game.






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