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Underpowered Moritat?


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#41 vogue69

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:37 PM

Boss Gitsmasha said:

 

FieserMoep said:

 

2d5 are far superior to a 1d10, even with tearing.

 

1d10 / 2d10d1

Min: 1 / 1

Max: 10 / 10

Average: 5.5 / 7.15

Std. deviation: 2.872 / 2.351

Chance to get RF: 10% / 20 %

 

2d5 / 3d5d1

Min: 2 / 2

Max: 10 / 10

Average: 6.0 / 7.20

Std. deviation: 2.000 / 1.842

Chance to get RF: 20% / 30%

 

 

I'm impressed. Of course, they both pale to a Great Weapon, which is 2d10/3d10d1.

Then there was that Khorne Renegade I had in Black Crusade who had the Flesh Render talent, which made her roll TWO extra dice on Tearing weapons, discarding the two lowest. Combined with her Best-craftsmanship Chain Greatsword, which was 2d10+3R Pen 3, I'd roll 4 damage dice and discard the lowest two. Blood for the Blood God.

 

that's what I have for my Rank7 Moritat Reaper right now. Flesh Render, Crushing Blow, Blade Dancer. It's like a latex whirlwind of blades.

 



#42 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 10:47 PM

How the hell did you get Flesh Render in Dark Heresy? That Talent didn't even exist when it came out.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#43 vogue69

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 02:54 AM

Boss Gitsmasha said:

How the hell did you get Flesh Render in Dark Heresy? That Talent didn't even exist when it came out.

we inluded Flesh Render, Preternatural Speed, Crushing Blow and Blade Dancer in the Moritat Reaper tree.



#44 Cymbel

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 09:08 PM

Those really are sensible choices and give them the buff when they are winding down (Tearing is a HUGE boost initially, competes well with CQ chainswords because a BQ mono sword is 190 VS the higher price of a chainsword as well as the quiet feature, and the XP bonus of saving it to focus on melee with light ranged, but not needing weapon training talents).

Crushing Blow gives the boost to stack up better against power and with the tearing makes them even better on a raw damage scale VS light armor

Flesh Render makes their special EVEN better, especially when they go to a lathe sword with the 1d10+2+MB+SB Pen3 +10 hit SUPER TEARING VS a CQ power sword

The speed boost is nice and helps them close the distance

Blade Dancer combined with 2 BQ blades and lightning attack makes 4 +10 to hit attacks, right?

And you also replaced the Reaping with the OW whirlwind talent, right?

Btw, what is the XP cost on all of these?



#45 vogue69

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 12:03 PM

Cymbel said:

 

Those really are sensible choices and give them the buff when they are winding down (Tearing is a HUGE boost initially, competes well with CQ chainswords because a BQ mono sword is 190 VS the higher price of a chainsword as well as the quiet feature, and the XP bonus of saving it to focus on melee with light ranged, but not needing weapon training talents).

Crushing Blow gives the boost to stack up better against power and with the tearing makes them even better on a raw damage scale VS light armor

Flesh Render makes their special EVEN better, especially when they go to a lathe sword with the 1d10+2+MB+SB Pen3 +10 hit SUPER TEARING VS a CQ power sword

The speed boost is nice and helps them close the distance

Blade Dancer combined with 2 BQ blades and lightning attack makes 4 +10 to hit attacks, right?

And you also replaced the Reaping with the OW whirlwind talent, right?

Btw, what is the XP cost on all of these?

 

 

 

Moritat Reaper (Rank6+) gets the following talents Talents: Crushing Blow (100exp), Flesh Render (200exp) (Black Crusade), Preternatural Speed (200exp) und Blade Dancer (300exp) (Only War/Black Crusade).

The Reaping follows the rules of Whirlwind of Death from Only War. We play with OW Combat Rules though.



#46 ArcCain

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 10:42 AM

What Rankes/Levels are we talking about here?

I have a assassin in my game and he is a buzz saw, he dose not even have the Moritat expansion and still killes pritty much everything he gose up against, and he is melee focused.

The Moritat only say´s that you need to use bladed weapons, as long as your weapon has a edge your fine so power weapons are fair game, don´t forget that there are some cool crossbows in Inquisitors Handbook and Ascension that you can still use and you still get Tearing against living targets with them.



#47 FieserMoep

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:26 AM

If you would have watched the discussion you would now that there is a very strong and valid argument against power weapons for the moritat. Fluffwise these weapons are shaped like bladed weapons but in fact it is the powerfield, not the edge, that inclicts the damage. (This the for example the reason why an Omnissian Axe looks like a blunt cog but still works finde as a power weapon - thanks to the field)

Someone that is against advanced weapons and is trained in cutting weapons would by no means apply all his talent to these advanced weapons. He might know how to hold a sword but this does not qualify him to fight with this weapon and even more all the eviscerating skills a moriatat has achieved with a blade cant apply to a power weapon because it is not "physical" like a blade is and therefore you cant pull the guts out and increase the damage even more (hence the tearing). A power field simply burns the flesh away.



#48 ArcCain

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:32 AM

1: Yes, you can put a power field on most weapons in the game but how the field works i based on the weapon, (+installation), and how advansed it is. Power Fists/hammers trigger on hit delivering a powerfull blow but is otherwise most of the time "of", Power swords and axes dose not have the advanced trigger system and needs to stay on, the field allows the weapon to "cut" through armour and fleash better but burns up it´s battery faster.

2: The Omnisian Axe is not something every Tech-Priest has, it is only for the "elite" that has proven them selfs, and in Inquisitors Handbook it look quite sharp.

3: In Ascension the Death Cult Assassins start with two power swords, if you are a Moritat you will most likly grab that path. The power sword is very much a physical weapon the field just makes it more deadly, as a Player/Moritat you have sacrificed most ranged weapon, (and indeed melee weapons), to be the best you can in melee, why would you as a GM screw the character in the late game over a power field? The sword is a sword it is just enhanced, the Tearing rule is based on the fact that the Moritat is just that good with bladed weapons and nothing more, a weapon dose not need to have teeth or other additions to have Tearing, it can some times be added to a weapon just to demostrate it´s killing power. Also, there code allows them to use other or "cheating" weapons if they can´t harm the enemy any other way. As someone said earlier, Assassins Strength is expensive so give them some leeway.

If you as a GM is going to deny the Moritat his or hers tearing do to a power field you should supply him with a good Lathes blade or something similar with good damage and pen. The cell will eventually face carapace and power armour and then the Assassin is mostly useless unless he uses weapons that he can´t even use his tearing, (one of the reasons you pick a Moritat), with. If we are to deny him power weapons.

"A blade is and therefore you cant pull the guts out and increase the damage even more (hence the tearing)." So what if he turns the power field of and twists the sword around before pulling it out?

 


#49 FieserMoep

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 11:55 AM

1. The battery thing depends on fluff, actually there are models with unlimited energy supply. But everything else you say here does not add to the discussion of a moritat can use it. I was talking about the least "bladed" power weapons, most of us know that hammers/fists work different but they are nothing to discuss if we are talking about the moritat.

2. My argument was not about how wide-spread it is, my argument was about how force fields work and this weapon is a quite good example for this, no matter how often you will encounter it. And if we go in deep here, every power weapon is only asignet to elite fighters, even a "common craftmanship" version is something special and valuable.

3. The Ascention Career is not made for moritat alone, it is made for death cultists and just offers these weapons, it does not force you to use it. A death cult that has sworn to use primitive, edged weapons has no use for this kind of armament, simple as that. A power weapon is a physical weapon, indeed, but its primary damage does not come from pure force, but from advanced technology. Where a moritat uses a bladed weapon to inflict harm he uses cuting methods that leave big and bloody wounds, that is what makes him so special. A power blade on the other hand simpley burnd everything of. No matter of a moritat uses his special skills or another experienced fighter uses it. Just look at the damage code, a power weapon inflicts energy damage while a regular blade uses rending damage. This is the damage that fluffwise cautarizes wounds, just like Lasguns or for example gaunt when he cut of Larks leg with his sword and imideatly cautarized the wound with it. Does that sound like the bloody buisness a moritat is for? Well at least it does not for me. Every wound a moritat inflicts is made by a surgeon that knows how to devastate a living body. When he cuts your stomage he does it that way that your organs will fall out, he is an artist and just like you cant replace the brush of a dedicated painter with a spray can you cant replace an edged weapon with a power blade. In the end they do roughly the same but the dedicated painter can only use his skills with a brush though he might have learned to use a spray can, it is still something different.

And no, a power sword is nost just a sword with an enhancement. It is something complelty different. This weapon has been build from scrap to be a power weapon, you cant just attach something and say."yea, power field!". But more important in this discussion it is also used differently. If you just look at it with the definition weapon, it might be comparable, but if we go more into detail, as we have to, and talk about an actual blade and the physic mechanics of cuting, then the power weapon works complelty different. The actual blade you see is just traditional and cosmetic, in some models it only adds some weight for slashing power or to cunduit the actual power field. For example Gregor Eisenhorn used a power sword that had no blade at all and was just a hilt (Do not confuse this with the sollex blade).

Also it is true that a moritat sacrifices some tools and weapons and might be even weak in comparision. But this is no ****** MMO where every class has to be balanced, this is a PnP. And if a zealot takes a decision out of fath then it is that way, even if it might cripple him, this is the very essence of faith. It adds to the charakter of a PC and you have to forget about DMG comperability etc. He is an assassin and not made to fight toe to toe with enemys in power armor. As an assassin he sneaks in and kills those guys when their helemts or even complet armors are off. Yes, it might not be that easy but then you should not have rolled a moritat assassin. Everyone can read about them, it is no wall you hit unprepared. It is a choice you take and if your charakter notices INPLAY that his believes are wrong for he cannot slay the emperors enemies he might reconsider his believes. But this is an active choice. To make it more convinient by allowing power weapons is just weak cheating that has no place in charakter play, at least for my group an me. If all breaks loose, he has to b reak with his death cult, the moriat if he thinks they are wrong when they only use "primitve" weapons. That is his freedom but he has to deal with the consequences. He took a moritat, he play a moritat. To cry in the lategame for better weapons only shows that he onyl took it becauce of min-maxing, not because of the thrill of playing such a dedicated silet killer with its own code of honor.

And you said it already, there are choices like Lathe Blades he can try to acquire, also he can use called attack to unprotected areas like the face etc. Not every armour covers the whole body and is a sealed power armor. And if you are constantly fighting CSM then DH is propably not the right setting. Carapce is even managble with a Mono-Great-Weapon.

And to your last paragraph, the area where he turns the blade has already been burned out by the powerfield before. If you know ask why he stabs even futher after takin it of and then twisting it you might address FFG directly. In the end this is a PnP system that has to focus and drop rules that might never apply.

Also mostly the argument that a moritat is underpowered includes armors like carapace and even power. I just wonder where your assassins are fighting? If the campaing includes gun-ho random encounters on the street with full equiped kill teams I agree that an assassin might be in trouble here, a guardsman would be the more fitting melee fighter here. But if we realy break down what it means to be a melee assassin we come to talk about stealth and infiltration where the assassin actualy is good at. The moritat is the best silent killer in the setting for he can use silent weapons (no chain or power, just primitive) with the strongest effect. Actualy he is the only assassin career that can more or less guarantee a silent kill in one ambush. This is where his strengh lies, but most people dont get it when they compare him to auto-cannons and what not.



#50 ArcCain

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 01:04 PM

1: Battery is quite relevant as the book´s often sayt that the weapons can only be used so and so long, often around 20-30 minutes, and yes there are some weapons that have unlimited power.

2: A Powersword/blade/knife dose not make a huge burning hole it is a focused edge that deals E typ damage, unless you score a crit.

3: "Every wound a moritat inflicts is made by a surgeon that knows how to devastate a living body. When he cuts your stomage he does it that way that your organs will fall out, he is an artist and just like you cant replace the brush of a dedicated painter with a spray can you cant replace an edged weapon with a power blade." Yes you can, a power weapon will do the same job and faster + there is the burn trauma, (that you keep comming back to), being inflicted. And if Death Cult Assassins don´t use advanced weapons why do they start with them? The Moritat said nothing about only using primitive weapons, only that they use blades and bladed weapons, a power sword is still a sword. Some would see it as a blessing to be giftet such a grand weapon to slay the enemy´s of the Emperor.

Funny that you mention Eisenhorn, I remember him, and I am quoting the book, cutting a Dreadnought in half with his powersword. Just as long as we are draging the books into it. And I am not messing with you when I say that I don´t understand what your talking about here.

Again it say´s nothing about only using primitive weapons. So your saying that by taking a starter pack by what it offers and not just based on the fluff is mid maxing? Then how are you ever going to get started? If you want to build melee you will grab what is best for melee and that´s that, tactical and clever building. First you say it´s not about choic but then you say that it is not about making a choic, it´s about playing a underpowered character based a choic given to you by the book to make you better att killing with blades but none of your argument are backed in the Moritats restrictions. And the Reaping dose not sound like something that a stealt based Assassin will want anyway, if you roll a Moritat you will be in the thick of melee. And yes the Reaping is from a later add on but there is no reason to not grab it if you are a Moritat.

There are power armours and fare worse stuff that normal humans can have, not everyone will but some time you will run into it and then there is the stuff xenos may have. We should not even start on Daemons.

Eh? What?

Acually, if you balanc the campaing propperly the enemy´s the Cell will face will not be push overs like the one the book´s, pare from a few, gives you. The Assassin in my group is not even a Moritat and he is till murdering almost everything he runs into in combat thanks to his power sword so I don´t think he or Moritat´s are underpowered, people just knowingly miss inturpit the rules just as in the original table top game, why a party would want to cripple them self that way is beond me. + DH is an ARPG, there is not that much stealth in it and you can´t really play a stealth Assassin with out something that deals a lot damage and can oneshot or knock some one out, Moritat or not.



#51 FieserMoep

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:01 PM

ArcCain said:

[…]DH is an ARPG[…]

And there we have completly different points of view. For me DH is a RPG about Investigation. If you want a 40k line that is focused on action I would suggest OW, DW and even RT to some degree. In DH you are an acolythe, a tool of investigation. You are serving an Inquisitor and in your role combat is an element but not your purpose, for this "simple" task an Inquisitor can deploy inquisitorial Kill-Teams or demand support from local forces if he want to.

2: They do cause burning effects the longer you let them stay on the wound. And they "burn" the flesh out by destroying the molecular bonds of matter, they do not rend or cut like a regular blade would.

3; I never stated that Death Cultists do not use advanced weapons, I stated that Moritat wont use them. They are a special career, not the majority of this role. And the enty more or less talks about "primitve" weapons (should have used quotes here) for the majority of bladed weapons are in fact primitive. Later on they get Mono/Lathe upgrade but more or less they stay the same. Power weapons are a complelty different category (hence you need the specific talent for them). But if you like starting careers that much and refer to them all the time though just look at the moritat career. Does it grant the power weapon talent? No, they rely on their primitive melee weapons talent. (And the gear of starting equipment only covers a wide array of equipment or do you realy belive 66% of all guardsman are equiped with muskets ors bows? Are you serious?) The starting gear only tries to allow you to play different cliches, but it is no mandatory law that says: YOu get it, you have to use it! Every Guardsman I know was instantly droping all the weapons that did not suit his homeworld for example. And yes, a power sword is still a sword, but unless it is turned off it has not blade, and this is the problem for the moritat.

(4.) Well, we dont play like that. We do not say: I want to melee, what class offers the most bonus to that. We play roles and develope them. If someone plays a Guardsman he invests in some BS, but if he becomes an Officer and wants to portrait the chainsword swinging Sarge then he spents some WS. If someone plays a moritat he does not choose him for his special skills or talents in the first place but he offers a given set to actualy play a dedicated death cultist with some nice aspects of faith and the struggle he might have on his travail. For sure there are always some meta-aspects, but to always aim for the best, as you mentioned it is one thing: Min-maxing. I do not say it is a bad thing per se, but that is what it is. You even agreed with me though you used another word for it. And the reaping as a spin attack does include several enemies but in my opinion he is still an ASSASSIN, not a murder-servitor. This talent is usefull if things go horrible wrong but do you realy think of body-glove wearing assassins in the middle of a combat zone? An ASSASSIN? Another point where we have complelty different opinions. For my opinion an Assassin is an Assassin, for you it is something different, a Brute of some kind… and again I have to propose the Guardsman… this career also gets all important melee talents, even more of the important ones than the assassin though later on. And he actualy might wear a heavy armor and this is what you are talking about, at least in my opinion. This is the class for the thick of melee.

And about the Daemon-Stuff or Power Armors that seem to appear quite often in your games… well, you made DH an ARPG… I guess the concept of battles that cant be won and the existence of always a bigger fish is something strange to you. Also you speak of "crippeling" I speak of actual roleplay. Not everything is pro or balanced. Heck… if I would be crippled for every character that has his own limits by choice… and Moritat is perfect for stealth… a power or chain weapons make so much noice… no wonder that you have no stealth elements… a moritat with tearing can use some BLADED weapons with devastating efficency. But it seems you are not playing a DH inquisitorial investigation cell but a kill team.



#52 ArcCain

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 06:56 AM

Actually, the book say´s it is a ARPG, yes you can and should run investigation missions etc to keep things fresh but the more a story arc progresses there is less focus on learning stuff and more of a focus on facing and stoping what ever you are fighting. And it really comes down to the players how they want to handle something.

2: Still makes it easier to cut through your enemys, but here´s a question; How do you use a power sword? By shopping and slicing just like a sword, what is the Moritat good with? Swords and why do they get the natural tearing? For being bad ass with swords. The type of damage is unimportant as long as the weapon is used as other edged weapons. It is there natural skill not the weapon they use that grants them tearing.

3: Being a Moritat just changes your start and back ground other than that you are a regular assassin and the Moritat Reaper is a add on, you can still gain power weapon training from the core path in DH. Pluss after reading up on the Moritat´s lore in IH it seem pretty clear to me that they are mostly fighters, and there was no mention of using just primitive weapons there either. I don´t get the guardmen thing your saying. The starting gear is free so like it or not there is litle reason to not grab it and yes you can customize your starter set. A power sword is still a sword that has a uppgrade, it still functions just like a sword when it comes to killing people with it.

Having all the Moritat game knowlidge in the back of my head from just reading the book I can understand that some people missunderstands what it is saying but again, a power sword is still a sword, it has a edge, it´s fine. The Moritat´s code dose say that he/she should be fair when fighting enemy´s in single combat or challenges, (1v1), to prove him/her self. By the time a Assassin can get a power weapon he won´t be going after the small fish and if you want to RP it he could be a bit like a Witcher where he/she only uses normal, mono/lathes, power weapons against enemys of diffrent threat and armour. That I think would be a cool idea plus it gives him a RP reason to carry so many weapons.

4: True but not for the Moritat, all they have to fall back on is arrows, throw weapons and melee, they don´t get much leeway in how they can build. And there is nothing saying that a Assassin can´t carry armour, but they will rarely go beond Body-gloves and flack armour. And Assassins are not brutres, they are skilled "artists" who kill with skill able to go upp against multiple enemy´s and still be able to win. Actually a Assassin is just a more expensive murder-servitor that kills when ordered to. Depending on how you want to RP it, some do some don´t.

I don´t know where you get that power weapons make so much noise, they do produse some light and noise but this is easely masked but a city´s every day sounds.

Actually, my campaing has been running for over 1 and a half years now and my Cell has only ever met two demons, (1 just happend thanks to a massive PoW), and three emeny´s using power weapons, (A Eldar, a Heretek and a Sector Crime Lord). The rest has been quite ordinery, only know have I uppgraded enemy weapons so that they can harm the Cell. There is no point in playing if you can´t "win", although what winning is may depend on the situation.

What your cell will face really comes down to what Ordo your in.



#53 FieserMoep

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 09:44 PM

2. They are good with bladed weapons, but they are not this good with non bladed weapon. Just as a mace is a blut weapon a power weapon is - badatsum - a power weapon. It is a complelty different technology. And just because it has a traditional design that is actually not used in combat when turned on it is no bladed weapon. It is their skill, yes, but they are skilled with a particular kind of design of weapon, and that is bladed weapons. Not weapons that use a fancy power field.

3. YOu are just hilaroius. At one point you argue that the starting gear defines a career, you said because a death cultist gets his hands on power weapons in ascention and because this is a favourable roll for a moritat this includes that he should be able to use power weapons. But when I tell you that starting gear is just a made up all-round pack you do not have to take serious or view as role defining you argue back with my own words? Funny mate. And no, a power sword is not just a sword with an upgrade. Any common bladed weapon would be instantly destroyed if you attach a power field generator for this weapon is, in most designs, still a conduit for the field. These weapons were made as power weapons, you do not simply take a sharp stick of metal, attach something and call it a power weapon. And is is NOT working like a sword. There is a huge difference between a field of energy ripping appart your molecules and a piece of metal that has been trusted into your guts. In most parts of the RP this makes no difference, but for the moritat it does. For the power weapon does NOT cut with a BLADE it cuts with a POWER FIELD it HAS NO EDGE that is used in combat unless turned off. Pretty simple.

Also nothing speaks against carrying a power blade with him, for  he is allowed to use such equipment outside of his creed if he is not able to harm is foe otherwise, though his tearing does not apply. Fine with that.

4. Also i never said Assassins were brutes, most of the guardsmen are. And if your moritat stays always on the frontline fighting fancy around I just ask what kind of assassin he is? Well, none I gues. He fullfills the role of a brute and a guardsman would suit this more if you actualy do not stealth and… well… assassinate… or what is the job of this profession? And a murder servitor, at least a decent one, is more expensive than an assassin… and more reliable, well for this task only. See… just a brute.

And where I get from that power weapons make noise? They do, lotsa novels discribe how they crackle and the more powerfull ones even howl when turned on though not that loud as chain weapons would. But even more they smell like ozon and can illuminate their souroundings. Yea… perfect weapon for an Assassin.

And there is no point in playing if you cant win? Realy?! So you GM tailors every situation that you just can rush in? Heck, there are 20 Arbitges, armed with Carapce and Full-Auto-Shotguns and you still start a fight from a position at a disadvantage? Your NPCs are to stupid to set  up an ambush to deal with this pesky Akolythes? I am not talkin about railroading the defeat of the group or taking every chance from them to spot the situation. But there is always a bigger fish. There is always a fight they simply cant win… but yea. you made your point pretty clear. DH is an action rpgs and the group has to steamroll everything or "win" in the end (in my opinion staying alive is always a win), and fights that are to difficult make everything pointless.



#54 Angel of Death

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 06:30 PM

Well playing a very conservative ultra fanatic Moritat, I will admit he has a power blade, but he has not used it for combat but to cut thur objects to get his enemies.

 

And Alaric is not a social PC at all.. His social skills: 

Medicae - because should require u and another person

Interrogation - because should require u and another person

Intimidation - because should require u and another person or more

oh and The Reaping - because should require u and another person  burla

But at the sametime I will admit he beleives that he is the Scalpel of the God-Emperor, and is guided by his will and has been protected to kill in his name against heretics.  

 

and well, because Alaric is from Dusk, he never studied Law, which has been noted as he has no clues about the Law of Gravity and how it should work.atontado


"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

 


#55 ArcCain

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 01:06 AM

1. A bower sword is a sword, your statement is not backed by the book.

2. What are you talking about? Half of this is just insults or missinterpitetions of what I said, not that it surprises me being the 40k fandom. You "cut" whit a power sword just like any other sword, it just has a field that sets people on fire when you land critts.

3. I know, it is you who has been talking about only using primitiv weapons.

4. Eh, yes you did; "For my opinion an Assassin is an Assassin, for you it is something different, a Brute of some kind…" you made a assumptions that I don´t know what a assassin is, but then again you make quite a lot of assumptions, plus ignoring the actual book.

5. Yes, but it is not that loud nore could many peole smell it, unless it is sufficatingly strong.

6. Again your making assumptions, dude, my gang is using the same stuff that everyone else by there level is, maybe even less, they are steamrolling stuff not couse I let them, couse they are just really good att it, they chooce to take on a situation that I give them however they want, and no I am not letting them win. I infact hate GM´s that do that, what I am is just. I am not forcing them to do anything and this intire part is quite unprovoked, I have meet your kind of people before, they are the kind that can´t win argument and end up with this kind of talk. Hell I have even meet people that don´t think burning books on Emperors Ascension day is a thing even though it is in the Inquisitors Handbook, why? Couse they don´t read what they don´t want to learn.

Bottomline:

Your argument is based on personal perception, nothing of what you say is stated or supported in the books that otherwise do a good job of saying what flys and what dosn´t. Damage type is for the crit table and has litlle inpact to the game other than that. Do you really think that setting a guy on fire or having him explode is less effective then having him bleed out?

What is a assassin? Some one that kills people and often do it for money, it may be stealth, it may be messy, but the end result is that the target dies, just as a bandit is a thief, he steals by robbing you but he ultimetly steals from you. Moritat are killers that use blades and other edged weapons, it can be silently or it could be in the middle of a ballroom, it depends on what they want to achieve by killing the target. Nothing say´s that it has to be quiet and stealth.

Your rude and type to much, cut it down a bit.

Don´t ever make assumptions.

I believe that we have reached the end here and will just have to agree to dissagree.



#56 FieserMoep

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 02:42 AM

ArcCain said:



Your argument is based on personal perception, nothing of what you say is stated or supported in the books that otherwise do a good job of saying what flys and what dosn´t.

My last try here to argue with you, but you are still not reading what I am writing. I already mentioned a novel with a power Sword that had NO physical blade. It was just a hilt, nothing more that emits the power blade that not just works like an ordinary sword. The blade you can see on power weapons is just a conduit, nothing more, it has NO edge.

 

Well, I am out.



#57 Darth Smeg

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 08:47 PM

In the interest of peace and harmony (What? Heresy! There is only war!) I will point out that our noble Rules Overlords (FFGs developers) answered this question with a "whatever works for you" style answer.

The Moritat are NOT prohibited from using chain or power swords by the fine Rules As Written, but there is certainly enough text that support a more restricitve interpretation, and as such your group/GM is free to introduce such restrictions.

Thus Spake FFG (I paraphrased, as I couldn't be arsed to find the quote).

So you're free to keep arguing about what's "correct", but keep in mind that you're arguing about what should be orthodox interpretation of religious doctrine in an imagined extremist cult in a fantasy universe that doesn't exist and that changes all the time to such an extent that even "official canon" contradicts itself constantly.

I doub't there is such a thing as "correct" here, so go with the advice from the game creators: "Say Yes!" and follow the "Rule of Cool!"

Will restricting the assassin in your group to ancient weapons make for a cooler game? If so, go for it. Will it make the player sulk, the party lose it's edge (pun intended) in the fight against the Emperors enemies? Then for Him-on-Terras sake drop the issue and let him have his cool toys!

We're playing to have fun, right? Not to "accurately portray and simulate the realism of the 41st millennium".

You're fielding chansaw wielding swordfighters against space-elves with lasers for petes sake, on spaceships that look like cathedrals! And you have wizards and demons that warp space and time and break all known laws of nature. If you've all decided to accept this level of disbelief, and to play this GAME together, then bloody well learn to just Let Go. 

In my not-so-humble opinion :)


Tarald - The Dark Lord of Smeg

You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on

 

My House Rules for using Only War (and more) for Dark Heresy games


#58 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:23 AM

I'm suprised nobody has mentioned that the Metallican Gunslinger is also "underpowered."

 

I believe it is most accurate that DH started out as an investigation game that has changed, presumably under market pressure, the popularity of Abnett, and the buying power of teenagers :), into an action game. This occured around Blood of Martyrs and Apostasy Gambit and I think is not coincidentally tied into the general decline of product quality.



#59 Morangias

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:33 AM

Oh, look, it's the "Moritat are underpowered" thread again, right on schedule!

 

Generally speaking, yes, Moritat characters are in a bit of a bind, as their main advantage is entirely outdone by a mere chainsword, generally available quite early on in the game, and they are still stuck with all the disadvantages.

 

That said, Dark Heresy has quite a lot cool things Moritat can use while maintaining the advantage of the Bloody Edge. And if DH isn't enough, Rogue Trader may also be helpful. Dual-wielding Sanctified Lathe Bolo Knives with Tox Dispensers is a surefire way to deal a ton of damage with insane RF potential even at higher echelons of power, and that's just scratching the surface.

 

Moritat have a harder time getting really good weapons, but they aren't crippled by that. And once they do find the right equipment, the results are pretty good.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#60 Alex Cube

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 04:36 PM

I am in fact amused by the fact that some people say that Moritat cannot use power weapons because they are not primitive, while stating that lathe-blade and mono upgrade is ok. Seriously, re-read the description of both (and tox dispenser, for that matter) and you will be shocked -- both are in no damn way primitive or non-high-tech.

Secondly -- Reaping. It is meant to be used i the thick of melee. So I'm in no way saying that an assaasin shouldn't stalk the shadows and kill enemies while being unseen, but let's face it -- it is a comat-oriented class an is by all means supposed not to suck in melee, an from some fanatics of yours are saying it is either using a sword/knife without mono/lathe/power/tox upgrade or a bow/thrownKnife without upgrades which will suck in a real fight anyway.

Bsides, sir Moep, I hope youndo understand a power sword that "disrupts molecular bonds" and "cautherizes wounds" are diametrically opposed matters and I can hardly imagine that happening at the same time. And I agree that ascension would not give a moritat prefered class a power sword if he could not use it, but oh, wait, you just said the opposite.

I am also surprised by ArcCain's statement that power swords burn through their targets, AFAIK power fields on swords indeed do soften the matter by "disrupting molecular bonds" but everyone with at least a bit of engineering knowledge (which is, of course, not always applicable to WH40K matters but anyways) understands that that means that the physical sword cuts through matter much more easily, and that's it, no burning/cautherizing wounds and stuff.

So from this perspective a power sword cuts throygh matter with power field only helping by softening up targets, so yes, it is a bladed weapon in which the thrust makes most of the work and the field helping a bit (sword in which the blade itself wouldn't matter wouldn't have a SB add to damage like the forementioned sollex blade) and so can be used by moritat, because the only other option would be to restrict moritat to the bladed weapons with primitime quality with almost no upgrades (no power/lathe/mono) which sounds ridiculous to me as even a great weaopn being primtive cna't stand a chance in fight even to a kill-squad-trooper who is a quite low-level adversary.

Lastly as for me personally I would definetly say no to any chain weaopns as they are no blades -- they are bladed chains but that is quite different from a proper blade, and of course no staffs/mauls/hammers/etc of any kind primitive or not






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