Jump to content



Photo

Underpowered Moritat?


  • Please log in to reply
62 replies to this topic

#21 Cymbel

Cymbel

    Member

  • Members
  • 735 posts

Posted 11 March 2013 - 04:48 PM

I would let a monoed blade be reforged as a lathe blade, essentially destroying the mono part and forming it into something new while still having the player investment into the weapon. Stacking is just broken as it brings you close to Pen 6, which is a power sword. Whether or not it stays sanctified is up to the GM. Also, by the rules, a d5 still only had a 10% chance, because by RaW you have to roll a 10 on the d10 to get it. So 1 = 1, 6 = 1, 2 = 2, 7 =2 all the way up to 5  = 5, 10 = 5 + RF



#22 FieserMoep

FieserMoep

    Member

  • Members
  • 362 posts

Posted 11 March 2013 - 06:31 PM

FieserMoep said:

[…]in our round we rule that they do not stack but a weapon with mono can be turned into a weapon with Lathe (Hence the 3[…]

Cymbel said:

I would let a monoed blade be reforged as a lathe blade, essentially destroying the mono part and forming it into something new while still having the player investment into the weapon

Its pretty much the same.^^ This actualy was the reason why I wrote Pen 3/5 in the weapon profile, 3 for not stacking, 5 for stacking. I know groups that use different rules. How a weapon is turned or purchased as a custom job, a reforge or some other augmentation totally depends on the situation, the circumstances and the GM. You can also handle the lathe upgrade as a hardening process for monoed weapons or what ever. There are enough reasons to find a solution to keep a heirloom weapon and "upgrade" it as long as it benefits the RP and keeps the rules.

And when I was refering to the Bolo Knife RF Bonus I was talking about the 2d5. I know that a d5 is rolled as a d10, halved and rounded.^^ The reason why I said a Bolo Knife still has the advantage here is because it rolls two dices and hence has two dices with a 10% chance to deal RF and with tearing there are up to three dices. With lighning attack/dual wield you roll 9/12 dices, with a combat knife or any other 1d weapon you roll only 6/8 dices. Chances for RF are very high here (another reason why the great weapon is an awsome weapon in the hands of a moritat).



#23 bloody malth

bloody malth

    Member

  • Members
  • 27 posts

Posted 03 April 2013 - 08:05 PM

Until I read this thread, It had never even occured to me that Moritat couldn't use chain or power weapons. Even after reading,  I still don't buy it. Perhaps there are ultra-conservative factions that believe the purest kill can only be done with a primitive weapon and that anything else borders on heresy, but the dogma of religions changes based on what becomes practical.

As a gm, have silent Moritat NPC's kill or attempt to kill with primitive weapons only, if you want. Enforcing this restriction on PC's, however, seems unneccessarily punitive and not strictly within the rules. Chainswords obviously have an edge; they have dozens of small ones. Powerswords have an edge wreathed in a power field. A PC could decide that they want their character to abide by the more conservative restrictions, but that is a role-playing decision I would leave up to them.

It could lead to interesting plot and role-play developments as the more progressive elements of the Moritat may find themselves in a spiritual and political dispute with their traditional brethren. The successes and failures of the PC could be used by either element for political gain.



#24 PnPgamer

PnPgamer

    Member

  • Members
  • 237 posts

Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:22 AM

I think the official answer was along the lines that they can use chain and power, but they don't get anything special out of them. or something like that. There have also been multiple instances of noting where a moritat using a chain weapon is not the most silent one.



#25 FieserMoep

FieserMoep

    Member

  • Members
  • 362 posts

Posted 07 April 2013 - 01:23 PM

bloody malth said:

Until I read this thread, It had never even occured to me that Moritat couldn't use chain or power weapons.

He can, but his Dogma states that he is only allowed to do so if he could not otherwise defeat his foe in the name of the Emperor.

bloody malth said:

Perhaps there are ultra-conservative factions…

Perhaps there are? This is pretty much the definition of any death-Cult worth its salts. They are ultra-conservative to their believes. And never go to a Konfessor or Tech-Priest and tell him that religious dogmas have to change based on what becomes practical… in the most dire situation they might break their dogmas but they would very much know that this was horrible wrong.

bloody malth said:

As a gm, have silent Moritat NPC's kill or attempt to kill with primitive weapons only, if you want. Enforcing this restriction on PC's, however, seems unneccessarily punitive and not strictly within the rules.

it is no punishment for the Player has choosen this career. Now he has to deal with its benefits and drawbacks. They are able to use this kind of weapon but they have spent their live to master the pure form of the blade. And a Chainsword has little blades but theiy are far from beeing an edge and saying that they can be used with the same surgical accuracy than a pure blade is redicioulus. And power fields are also not a "blade". They might look like one but the energy litteraly burns through the target, vapourizing it. You can not tear flesh that has disappeared. These are the reason why the mechanics of the moritats tearing is not workinga and also this is the reason for the willpower check. They do not like this weapons for they act against their believes. For a moritats there is only one thing he needs to kill his enemy, a blade, a real edge.

And a moritat that is wielding a sword and is wondering why he cant kill an enemy in terminator-armor after he has openly charged him has clearly failed as an assassin…



#26 Cypherinthesystem

Cypherinthesystem

    Member

  • Members
  • 12 posts

Posted 25 April 2013 - 12:31 PM

I'm to the opposite side of the spectrum on the Moritat. People read the Bloody Edge (Trait) entry wrong

"The Moritat disdain many modern weapons as crude and spiritually unfulfilling, preferring instead the sacred edge of the blade. As a result, they must pass a Hard (-20) Willpower test to use any weapon lacking an "edge" in combat (Thrown Blades, Knives and arrows are fine) UNLESS they obviously have no chance of harming their enemy otherwise."

Moritats are zealous in nature for there devotion, but they are not insane. My character build had a Stub Revolver with Man Stopper Bullets just incase, but I rarely ever had to use it. Also as Cymbel has posted before

"http://fantasyflight...46&efidt=678245"

The ruling is a Moritat can use a powersword/chain sword. The debate is over if they get tearing with a Power Blade (Which is GM discretion).

The Moritat can be a great build due to the background nature and focus. My character was the noble born background, and acted the pompus arrogant type in public. But that was not the real him. That was the Fasade (Oh you taught me well Bruce Wayne). Might I recommend to players to play a character not just on potential damage output, but what excites you. If your worried about just throwing dice, then as mentioned above, you can still be a Minmaxer with a Moritat

Rank:4 Secluse: Melee Weapon Training (Chain)

Rank:5 Assassin: Melee Weapon Training (Power), Thrown Weapon Training (Chain)

Rank:6 Moritat Reaper: Melee Bad***

To have tearing before Rank 4 (2000Xp) Is great to have, cause your not touching the Power or Chain sword for a long while (Unless your GM gives out XP like nothing). This will then give you the ability to do more damage as a melee build with your awesome dodge capabilities. Granted you may not have as many wounds as a Guardsman, your AG makes up for this.

 



#27 Angel of Death

Angel of Death

    Member

  • Members
  • 303 posts

Posted 26 April 2013 - 03:49 PM


Now I play a ultra-conservative Moritat Reaper born on Dusk, he has not yet used anything outside of a mono blade to kill.  He beleives he is the Emperor's Scalpel, with it being his job grant to his enemies with his Benediction.  He is for lack of a better word a Zealot to the Imperial Creed.  He may not be a social butterfly, honestly the only "Social" skills he has are: Intimidate, Interrogation, and Medicae.  What he is a for lack of a better word, a living weapon against our enemies.  He is not an investigator, kinda useless unless 1 needs Muscle.


On a recent job our cell was sent into the underhive and my PC outfit looked a lot like this



It was kinda of amusing when he let his coat open to the small group of gangbangers and used it to Intimidate them.


Now for

wielding a sword and is wondering why he cant kill an enemy in terminator-armor after he has openly charged him has clearly failed as an assassin…


Agreed that a failure, and my Moritat would only end up there in 1 of 2 ways:


1: Father Des told me to go Kill the Heretic


2: By engaging it the rest of my team could get away


When the party mentions he should have a firearm he keeps mentioning getting the Kavan Munitions “Deathstalker” Pistol, and my party is sure I will never use the ammo in the gun.


http://www.fantasyfl...46&efidt=735454  (reply #2)


 


 


 


 


"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

 


#28 Ravnoc:Haunter

Ravnoc:Haunter

    Member

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:32 AM

high-marshal said:

Where do they say power swords don't count?  I don't think the errata mentions it and as far as I can tell the trait itself makes no mention of power weapons, one way or the other.  As GM of my group any moritat using a power sword (or power axe for that matter) would still get tearing.

We know that Power Weapons do not apply because a Power Weapon with "Tearing" is called an Evicerator.  ^_^  I reccomend using one.



#29 Boss Gitsmasha

Boss Gitsmasha

    Member

  • Members
  • 356 posts

Posted 27 April 2013 - 08:16 PM

Eviscerators aren't power weapons, they're chain weapons. And if you're going to use an Eviscerator, there's no point to playing a Moritat. You may as well play a regular Assassin and pack a gun as well.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#30 Angel of Death

Angel of Death

    Member

  • Members
  • 303 posts

Posted 29 April 2013 - 12:47 PM

Boss Gitsmasha said:

Eviscerators aren't power weapons, they're chain weapons. And if you're going to use an Eviscerator, there's no point to playing a Moritat. You may as well play a regular Assassin and pack a gun as well.

I have to agree with that comment.


"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

 


#31 Cymbel

Cymbel

    Member

  • Members
  • 735 posts

Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:24 PM

First off, while in some fluff Eviscerators do have a form of powerfield, the main damage truly comes from the tearing blades

Secondly, FFG gave an unofficial ruling that they dont and many GMs say they do

And most importantly, it gets tearing already, it is loud, it doesn't shed blood on a sacred edge, it isn't precise in any way, WHY as a Moritat are you using it? It isn't for religious reason, it isn't for tearing and every assassin can wield one with chain training.

Moritat can turn a cheaper and silent sword into a weapon almost as deadly as a chain sword, that is where they suceed, as a fanatical limited assassin who can kill well, but like all assassins are glass cannons



#32 Brother Praetus

Brother Praetus

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,361 posts

Posted 29 April 2013 - 11:32 PM

Cymbel said:

 

First off, while in some fluff Eviscerators do have a form of powerfield, the main damage truly comes from the tearing blades

Secondly, FFG gave an unofficial ruling that they dont and many GMs say they do

And most importantly, it gets tearing already, it is loud, it doesn't shed blood on a sacred edge, it isn't precise in any way, WHY as a Moritat are you using it? It isn't for religious reason, it isn't for tearing and every assassin can wield one with chain training.

Moritat can turn a cheaper and silent sword into a weapon almost as deadly as a chain sword, that is where they suceed, as a fanatical limited assassin who can kill well, but like all assassins are glass cannons

 

 

 

Just like to point out:

Eviscerator; Blood of Martyrs p116
Descriptive text: "Favoured by Ecclesiarchy zealots and witch-hunters, the eviscerator is an obscenely large double-handed chain weapon fitted with a crude version of the disruption field generator more commonly found on power-blades."

Eviscerator; Only War p185
Descriptive text: "Often carried into battle by Priests of the Adeptus Ministorum, the eviscerator is an obscenely large double-handed chain weapon fitted with a crude version of the disruption field generator commonly found on power weapons."

Emphasis is mine.

Neither source gives the Eviscerator the Power Field quality, but they both have massive armor penetration capabilities, more so in Only War since the thing has the Razor Sharp quality.

-=Brother Praetus=-


"Truth is so rare it must be protected by a bodyguard of lies."

- Fortune Cookie


#33 vogue69

vogue69

    Member

  • Members
  • 334 posts

Posted 11 May 2013 - 05:05 AM

how do you roll the tearing dice for a 2d5 bolo knife? 1D10? 2d5? seperate coloured dice?



#34 Griautis

Griautis

    Member

  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 12 May 2013 - 08:32 AM

I think it should be two seperate 2d5 rolls and seeing which one of the two is higher… 



#35 FieserMoep

FieserMoep

    Member

  • Members
  • 362 posts

Posted 12 May 2013 - 09:07 AM

vogue69 said:

how do you roll the tearing dice for a 2d5 bolo knife? 1D10? 2d5? seperate coloured dice?

The easiest way would be 3d10 (round down for d5). One of the 3 dices is of another color and can be used for one of the two regular dices if higher.



#36 Darth Smeg

Darth Smeg

    Lord Nitpicker

  • Members
  • 1,647 posts

Posted 12 May 2013 - 07:26 PM

Roll 3, discard the lowest?


Tarald - The Dark Lord of Smeg

 

My House Rules for using Only War (and more) for Dark Heresy games


#37 vogue69

vogue69

    Member

  • Members
  • 334 posts

Posted 12 May 2013 - 10:40 PM

Darth Smeg said:

Roll 3, discard the lowest?

that's what i thought. But let's say you have a normal one handed weapon. 1D10 dmg. you roll a 1. and the tearing dice comes up a 10. you turned a measily 1 dmg into 10 dmg.the bolo knife is a better weapon. 2d5 are better then 1d10. so you roll the worst dmg roll and come up with 2 dmg. then you roll the best tearing result which in this case would be 5 (1D10 /2) and end up with 6 dmg. that doesn't seem right to me. it makes tearing worse with a better weapon. it works with a single d5 weapon though.



#38 Darth Smeg

Darth Smeg

    Lord Nitpicker

  • Members
  • 1,647 posts

Posted 13 May 2013 - 12:28 AM

True, but a 1 on a d10 happens 1 of every 10 situations, but a 2 on d25 happens only in 1 of every 25.

You get more "average" results, and not so many highs or lows. 2d5 is not necessarily "better" than 1d10, as it will tend to consistantly score "mediochre" results, whilst the d10 will be "all over the place".

 


Tarald - The Dark Lord of Smeg

 

My House Rules for using Only War (and more) for Dark Heresy games


#39 FieserMoep

FieserMoep

    Member

  • Members
  • 362 posts

Posted 13 May 2013 - 12:01 PM

2d5 are far superior to a 1d10, even with tearing.

 

1d10 / 2d10d1

Min: 1 / 1

Max: 10 / 10

Average: 5.5 / 7.15

Std. deviation: 2.872 / 2.351

Chance to get RF: 10% / 20 %

 

2d5 / 3d5d1

Min: 2 / 2

Max: 10 / 10

Average: 6.0 / 7.20

Std. deviation: 2.000 / 1.842

Chance to get RF: 20% / 30%



#40 Boss Gitsmasha

Boss Gitsmasha

    Member

  • Members
  • 356 posts

Posted 13 May 2013 - 03:12 PM

FieserMoep said:

2d5 are far superior to a 1d10, even with tearing.

 

1d10 / 2d10d1

Min: 1 / 1

Max: 10 / 10

Average: 5.5 / 7.15

Std. deviation: 2.872 / 2.351

Chance to get RF: 10% / 20 %

 

2d5 / 3d5d1

Min: 2 / 2

Max: 10 / 10

Average: 6.0 / 7.20

Std. deviation: 2.000 / 1.842

Chance to get RF: 20% / 30%

I'm impressed. Of course, they both pale to a Great Weapon, which is 2d10/3d10d1.

Then there was that Khorne Renegade I had in Black Crusade who had the Flesh Render talent, which made her roll TWO extra dice on Tearing weapons, discarding the two lowest. Combined with her Best-craftsmanship Chain Greatsword, which was 2d10+3R Pen 3, I'd roll 4 damage dice and discard the lowest two. Blood for the Blood God.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."





© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS