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#61 HappyDaze

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 04:48 PM

Robomummy said:

Its not that ratlings are too silly its that they dont really fit into the game in my opinion. Ratlings and ogryns are very stange in a group of xenophobic humans and while they might have human origins they will still be regarded with suspicion and distrust amongst humans. I would prefer if the players in my group played humans with similar roles (sentry or brawler for ogryn and sharpshooter or weapon specialist for ratlings). I never liked either of these abhuman races as they just dont seem to fit in with the imperial guard. THe only exceptions I will make is if they were playing a squad of abhumans or if they played ogryns with catachans as there are ogryns on catachan. 

Ogryn can fit quite well into regiments from Death Worlds (as you mentioned) but also Feral and Feudal worlds. A Feudal world where the humans drug ogryn brutes and 'sacrifice' them to the Imperium as their tithe could be fun. Likewise, ogryn are typically very pious and would do well in regiments raised under the Penitent homeworld. Do be careful not to put them into Mechanised Infanty regiments or any other where vehicle use is mandatory (Armour, Artillery, Drop Troops, etc.), since they don't typically do well with enclosed vehicles.

Ratlings, OTOH, can really do well coming from almost any of the more civilised worlds. Agri-worlds and Frontier worlds would work well too.


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#62 HiveFleetStorm

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 04:06 PM

Two pointe to make here.

 

1)  Not all regaments have Ratlings or Ogryns.  Your right, thay aren't trusted or even tolerated by many in the Imperium of Man.  And thats a part of the 40k world.  Same with Psykers (Sanctioned or not), thay have no place in some regaments.  BUT ,There are millions of cases of severel regaments joining forces to combat a comman foe.  And thay may bring there Ratlings, Ogryns and Psykers to the fight for a tactical advantige over there foe. Just remember 1 thing ,YOUR PLAYING PROFESSIONAL SOLDERS. If ordered to work with abumans THAY WILL OR BE SHOT BY THE COMMISSARS FOR INSUBORDINATION. And, If thay had no place in a guard army, then thay would have bin killed to the last by all humans. 

 

2)  Ratlings and Ogryns don't have to be played by the hobit and simpleton.  Im in a campan that the ratling is a conniving little SOB with a sniper rifle.  And the Ogryn is trying to be a big game hunter by learning from the ratling. So theres 2 that are braking  there molds.  It is 1 of the fun things you can do buy  making a great backstory.  So don't think that theres only 1 way to play a race or class.      



#63 Tom Cruise

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 08:55 PM

Robomummy said:

 

Its not that ratlings are too silly its that they dont really fit into the game in my opinion. Ratlings and ogryns are very stange in a group of xenophobic humans and while they might have human origins they will still be regarded with suspicion and distrust amongst humans

 

 

 

Yeah okay congrats you just highlighted the most interesting aspect of roleplaying abhumans. I can't imagine why people would see this as grounds to rule these characters out in their games, are people that opposed to interparty conflict? And how is it ridiculous that they'd send such hated individuals into a war machine that 90 percent of the time results in death? It's not doing them a favour by any stretch of the imagination.



#64 RonFarster

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:12 AM

yeah gotta agree with the people on here that say "hate the player, not the race" i always found the idea of a character roleplaying a thief and stealing from other members of the party to be absurd, detrimental to the game and bad spirit. what does it honestly achieve? it just annoys people. a bit of intergroup conflict is fun but it jut slows the game down.

We have a Ratling in the group, and because we don't play xenophobes we're just fine. admittedly our PCs could be a bit more pious but really we just play a bunch of veterens/lads who do the get the mission done and respect anyone who can wield a gun properly. our Ratling is quite quiet and dour, but still thieves and cooks; a good balance.



#65 RonFarster

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:20 AM

yeah gotta agree with the people on here that say "hate the player, not the race" i always found the idea of a character roleplaying a thief and stealing from other members of the party to be absurd, detrimental to the game and bad spirit. what does it honestly achieve? it just annoys people. a bit of intergroup conflict is fun but it jut slows the game down.

We have a Ratling in the group, and because we don't play xenophobes we're just fine. admittedly our PCs could be a bit more pious but really we just play a bunch of veterens/lads who do the get the mission done and respect anyone who can wield a gun properly. our Ratling is quite quiet and dour, but still thieves and cooks; a good balance.



#66 Robomummy

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 06:01 PM

Tom Cruise said:

Robomummy said:

 

Its not that ratlings are too silly its that they dont really fit into the game in my opinion. Ratlings and ogryns are very stange in a group of xenophobic humans and while they might have human origins they will still be regarded with suspicion and distrust amongst humans

 

 

 

Yeah okay congrats you just highlighted the most interesting aspect of roleplaying abhumans. I can't imagine why people would see this as grounds to rule these characters out in their games, are people that opposed to interparty conflict? And how is it ridiculous that they'd send such hated individuals into a war machine that 90 percent of the time results in death? It's not doing them a favour by any stretch of the imagination.

Its not that I'm opposed to interparty conflict, its just that Only war is supposed to be the Human aspect of 40k. The average men and women with no special enhancements who are sent out to face the galaxy's horrors with their laser pointers. Adding abhumans to that just doesnt seem to fit, especially when you players choose to play the regimentsthat are incredibly fanatical and xenophobic (like the death korps). If a player wants to play either of these classes they can easily create a character that does the same thing who is human. In addition to this ratlings and ogryns may be seconded to Imperial guard regiemnts but for the most part unless they are fufilling the role of bodyguards they operate as seperate units unless fate throws them together for some reason (which can be a story but has been played out far too often). I see why they felt they needed to include them in the book but to me they dont feel like they fit. If you like them and want to play them then more power to you but i would prefer to leave them out of it. If I wanted to play a heavily muscled killing machine i would go back to deathwatch. 


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#67 Face Eater

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:35 AM

Robomummy said:

Tom Cruise said:

Its not that I'm opposed to interparty conflict, its just that Only war is supposed to be the Human aspect of 40k. The average men and women with no special enhancements who are sent out to face the galaxy's horrors with their laser pointers. Adding abhumans to that just doesnt seem to fit…

 

Thats missing the point, abhumans ARE humans, and the Imperial Guard is about all humanity being thrown in to the frey to stem the tide of xeno's and heretics arayed against the Imperium. Be they genetically superior nobles in the finest wargear available, wild hill men or hairy footed midgets, white, red, grey, blue or greenskinned they all fight, they all die in defence of the Imperium.

Whether or not you think they should be mixed in your regiment is totally different question. And if you have a xenophobic, abhuman hating regiment that's fine many are. But you missing out on those roleplay opportunities if they never come across a abuman regiment.



#68 Robomummy

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:51 AM

Face Eater said:

Robomummy said:

 

Tom Cruise said:

Its not that I'm opposed to interparty conflict, its just that Only war is supposed to be the Human aspect of 40k. The average men and women with no special enhancements who are sent out to face the galaxy's horrors with their laser pointers. Adding abhumans to that just doesnt seem to fit…

 

 

 

Thats missing the point, abhumans ARE humans, and the Imperial Guard is about all humanity being thrown in to the frey to stem the tide of xeno's and heretics arayed against the Imperium. Be they genetically superior nobles in the finest wargear available, wild hill men or hairy footed midgets, white, red, grey, blue or greenskinned they all fight, they all die in defence of the Imperium.

Whether or not you think they should be mixed in your regiment is totally different question. And if you have a xenophobic, abhuman hating regiment that's fine many are. But you missing out on those roleplay opportunities if they never come across a abuman regiment.

Abhumans are not humans, they were once but have since evolved to be something different in order to adapt to their enviornment. The imperum uses them becuase they have human origins and are loyal to the emperor but they do not consider them human. I dont see much roleplaying opportunits for them other then the other players looking down on them because of being less then human. Ogryns are massively muscled beings with the minds of children (according to fluff the smartest of them Nork could count to four and write his own name) and I dont see them as capable of anything more than heavylifting tasks and shooting heretics. In a fight an ogryns roleplying abilities are good but it pretty much ends there, anywhere else the player is usually left sitting on the sidelines while the rest of the party does the talking. Ratlings are halflings in space and are untrustworthy theives and good snipers (and cooks) in the guard regiment, while they have more roleplay abilities why should a squad work with them if it even says in the Imperial infantryman's Uplifting Primer that they arent to be trusted. Because of this the ratling players often end up sitting on the sidelines during most of the roleplaying aspect as well. While there may be a good reason that they are in your group it is likley that most other NPCs will not trust them or deal with a squad that works with abhumans. These classes in fact limits roleplay ability rather than expanding it.  


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#69 Terraneaux

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 03:11 PM

Robomummy said:

Robomummy said:

 

These classes in fact limits roleplay ability rather than expanding it.  

 

 

I would counter that you're wrong, as they expand the spectrum of options available to players.  They've been a part of the universe for a long, long time, and are part of how they show that humanity has come a long, long way from present day.  Humans have been living on strange planets long enough to have adapted to all sorts of crazy environments, and returning to humanity at large they definitely seem strange by comparison.  



#70 Robomummy

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 10:42 AM

Terraneaux said:

Robomummy said:

Robomummy said:

 

 

These classes in fact limits roleplay ability rather than expanding it.  

 

 

 

 

I would counter that you're wrong, as they expand the spectrum of options available to players.  They've been a part of the universe for a long, long time, and are part of how they show that humanity has come a long, long way from present day.  Humans have been living on strange planets long enough to have adapted to all sorts of crazy environments, and returning to humanity at large they definitely seem strange by comparison.  

Im not doubting that they have been inherent in the fluff for awhile (having been playing since the days of rogue trader) and they do show that humanity has come a long way, this doesnt make them a good RP class in a game focused on the imperial guard. Yes, maybe they can be decent NPCs but as player character classes the players tend to get sidelined during most of the actual roleplaying bits when interacting with the rest of the guard. They had human origins but they are still second class citizens in the imperium, generally looked on as little better then mutants by many regiments and this makes it hard for players to play them while trying to interact with other regiments (this is only in the case of ratlings as Ogryns barely are able to speak in short sentences). I just feel that abhumans are out of place in this book (along with psykers and commissars, but thats a different arguement).


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#71 HappyDaze

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:11 PM

Don't believe the propaganda. Racists would have you believe that ogryn are illiterate, but many a PC ogryn is fully literate, and they can theoretically keep pumping Intelligence by +5 every 2,500 XP by the Hammer of the Emperor rules.

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#72 Robomummy

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:40 PM

HappyDaze said:

Don't believe the propaganda. Racists would have you believe that ogryn are illiterate, but many a PC ogryn is fully literate, and they can theoretically keep pumping Intelligence by +5 every 2,500 XP by the Hammer of the Emperor rules.
 No, it goes completely against the fluff. The smartest ogryn in Existance is Nork Deddog, he can speak in short sentences, sign his own name ("N" for Nork), and count to four. Ogryns were written in the fluff to be little more than walking slabs of muscle who are given a gun and told to shoot the enemy, the whole point is that they arent smart enough to question their faith in the emperor. You are playing an ogryn in a way they were never meant to be played.


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#73 HappyDaze

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:34 PM

Robomummy said:

 

HappyDaze said:

Don't believe the propaganda. Racists would have you believe that ogryn are illiterate, but many a PC ogryn is fully literate, and they can theoretically keep pumping Intelligence by +5 every 2,500 XP by the Hammer of the Emperor rules.

 No, it goes completely against the fluff. The smartest ogryn in Existance is Nork Deddog, he can speak in short sentences, sign his own name ("N" for Nork), and count to four. Ogryns were written in the fluff to be little more than walking slabs of muscle who are given a gun and told to shoot the enemy, the whole point is that they arent smart enough to question their faith in the emperor. You are playing an ogryn in a way they were never meant to be played.

 

 

 

Or you're stuck listening to the propaganda. Sixty years ago, the party line was that a black man couldn't be President of the United States. The fluff of the time may have even supported that assertion, but that's because the fluff was wrong. So give an orgyn the chance and he might even become a planetary governor or a High Lord of Terra!


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#74 Terraneaux

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:59 PM

Robomummy said:

HappyDaze said:

Don't believe the propaganda. Racists would have you believe that ogryn are illiterate, but many a PC ogryn is fully literate, and they can theoretically keep pumping Intelligence by +5 every 2,500 XP by the Hammer of the Emperor rules.

 No, it goes completely against the fluff. The smartest ogryn in Existance is Nork Deddog, he can speak in short sentences, sign his own name ("N" for Nork), and count to four. Ogryns were written in the fluff to be little more than walking slabs of muscle who are given a gun and told to shoot the enemy, the whole point is that they arent smart enough to question their faith in the emperor. You are playing an ogryn in a way they were never meant to be played.

 

 

A lot of 40k fluff is hyperbolic or overwrought.  This is like that.  The average Ogryn PC is going to have what, a 16 Intelligence?  That's pretty dumb.  But there's always the opportunity for best quality cranial implants (go go Bonehead) or simply spending experience on intelligence if you want to play that scary smart ogryn.  

 

Even if you don't, though, you can certainly roleplay a character with a very low intelligence.  Finding ways to emote with a very limited vocabulary, relying on body language and facial expressions to a much greater degree, could be a lot of fun.



#75 Robomummy

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 05:22 PM

Well, im sorry if I like to play the game based on established fluff, If you just want to ignore it then go ahead but my group likes to play the game based on facts that have been established and it makes the ratlings and ogryns not fit into the book. Yeah you could play a smart ogryn, the rules make it possible but that still doesnt mean that it fits. Also where did that bit about the president and racism come from? it doesnt seem relevent to the conversation and it seems you have missed my entire point. This is a game with a well established fluff (I believe you are using that term incorrectly by the way) that specifically states what ogryns and ratlings are like, not like real life where people where actually oppressed and killed based on misbelief of superiority. I could go on at how The Imperium is supposed to represent the extremes of humanity, fanatical devotion, and other concepts but thats another conversation that Im not interested in having right now and would derail the topic of this thread. Anyway back to my original point, Bottom line my gaming group treats estblished fluff as fact for playing this game (dumb ogryns, untrustworthy ratlings, etc.) If you want to make up your own fluff then fine, go for it, but I maintain my postion that they dont fit into the roleplaying aspect of the game unless you change some fundimental facts. Since I dont want to rewrite major fluff when talking about entire species i would prefer to stick to what has already been established. 


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#76 HappyDaze

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 05:54 PM

Robomummy said:

Well, im sorry if I like to play the game based on established fluff, If you just want to ignore it then go ahead but my group likes to play the game based on facts that have been established and it makes the ratlings and ogryns not fit into the book. Yeah you could play a smart ogryn, the rules make it possible but that still doesnt mean that it fits. Also where did that bit about the president and racism come from? it doesnt seem relevent to the conversation and it seems you have missed my entire point. This is a game with a well established fluff (I believe you are using that term incorrectly by the way) that specifically states what ogryns and ratlings are like, not like real life where people where actually oppressed and killed based on misbelief of superiority. I could go on at how The Imperium is supposed to represent the extremes of humanity, fanatical devotion, and other concepts but thats another conversation that Im not interested in having right now and would derail the topic of this thread. Anyway back to my original point, Bottom line my gaming group treats estblished fluff as fact for playing this game (dumb ogryns, untrustworthy ratlings, etc.) If you want to make up your own fluff then fine, go for it, but I maintain my postion that they dont fit into the roleplaying aspect of the game unless you change some fundimental facts. Since I dont want to rewrite major fluff when talking about entire species i would prefer to stick to what has already been established. 

It's really quite simple. I'm saying that you buy into the in-game racist propaganda that unfairly sterotypes the various abhumans. You call it fact, but that's not necessarily true. What is true is that ogryn have a large penalty to Intelligence that they have to work very hard to overcome just to come up to the level of the average Guardsman. What is not true is that they absolutely cannot overcome this deficiency.


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#77 Robomummy

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 01:30 AM

HappyDaze said:

Robomummy said:

 

Well, im sorry if I like to play the game based on established fluff, If you just want to ignore it then go ahead but my group likes to play the game based on facts that have been established and it makes the ratlings and ogryns not fit into the book. Yeah you could play a smart ogryn, the rules make it possible but that still doesnt mean that it fits. Also where did that bit about the president and racism come from? it doesnt seem relevent to the conversation and it seems you have missed my entire point. This is a game with a well established fluff (I believe you are using that term incorrectly by the way) that specifically states what ogryns and ratlings are like, not like real life where people where actually oppressed and killed based on misbelief of superiority. I could go on at how The Imperium is supposed to represent the extremes of humanity, fanatical devotion, and other concepts but thats another conversation that Im not interested in having right now and would derail the topic of this thread. Anyway back to my original point, Bottom line my gaming group treats estblished fluff as fact for playing this game (dumb ogryns, untrustworthy ratlings, etc.) If you want to make up your own fluff then fine, go for it, but I maintain my postion that they dont fit into the roleplaying aspect of the game unless you change some fundimental facts. Since I dont want to rewrite major fluff when talking about entire species i would prefer to stick to what has already been established. 

 

 

It's really quite simple. I'm saying that you buy into the in-game racist propaganda that unfairly sterotypes the various abhumans. You call it fact, but that's not necessarily true. What is true is that ogryn have a large penalty to Intelligence that they have to work very hard to overcome just to come up to the level of the average Guardsman. What is not true is that they absolutely cannot overcome this deficiency.

It is not unfair stereyotyping, It is a fact written into the universe by the people who designed the game. "Ogryns possess many traits prized by the Imperium; they are brutally strong and completely loyal, although extremely limited intellectually, which limits their battlefield role to simple and direct assaults." This is what Ogryns are, if you want to write your own universe where ogryns are smart then go ahead but again they were never meant to be smart. They were specifically written this way and this is how I choose to play them, Smart ogryns go against the established fluff whichh is another reason why they have no place in my game. It is not racist propoganda, it is playing the game the way the creators of the 40k universe meant for them to be like.

 

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#78 Terraneaux

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 05:28 PM

Robomummy said:

Well, im sorry if I like to play the game based on established fluff

 

The established fluff of the game has ratlings and ogryn as an important part of the guard.  Your stridency in trying to remove them from available player options when we have a system that lets PC's roll as orks or kroot is really strange, and not really based on coherent reasoning.  Even if it was clear in the fluff that ogryns had a particular level of intelligence, cybernetic augmentations for their brains are well-known in the fluff, and since PC's are meant to be exceptional in some ways, playing the scary clever ogryn is certainly with that remit.  If you want to tell your players at the table you run that they can't play ogryn, go ahead, but shouting about it here where most folks either are interested in playing ogryn or else simply don't see the point of arbitrarily telling the former 'no' borders on solipsism for its lack of awareness.  

 

Also, the fluff of 40k has gone through so many incarnations and revisions and reimaginings that your arguments, in the end, come down to your own personal preference, since you're arguing to use one interpretation of the fluff over another.  This is 40k mark Fantasy Flight, different from the current fluff or black book grimdark or 2e or RT zaniness.



#79 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 12:37 AM

Dark Heresy is very very grimdark, albeit less now than when it was first published.



#80 Robomummy

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 09:14 PM

Robomummy said:

 

Well, im sorry if I like to play the game based on established fluff

 

 

 

The established fluff of the game has ratlings and ogryn as an important part of the guard.  Your stridency in trying to remove them from available player options when we have a system that lets PC's roll as orks or kroot is really strange, and not really based on coherent reasoning.  Even if it was clear in the fluff that ogryns had a particular level of intelligence, cybernetic augmentations for their brains are well-known in the fluff, and since PC's are meant to be exceptional in some ways, playing the scary clever ogryn is certainly with that remit.  If you want to tell your players at the table you run that they can't play ogryn, go ahead, but shouting about it here where most folks either are interested in playing ogryn or else simply don't see the point of arbitrarily telling the former 'no' borders on solipsism for its lack of awareness.  

 

Also, the fluff of 40k has gone through so many incarnations and revisions and reimaginings that your arguments, in the end, come down to your own personal preference, since you're arguing to use one interpretation of the fluff over another.  This is 40k mark Fantasy Flight, different from the current fluff or black book grimdark or 2e or RT zaniness.

Yes they have their uses to the guard and fulfill specific roles, this doesn't mean that they interact well with other parts of the guard since they are seen as less then human.  Even with cybernetics it only boosts the Ogryn's  intelligence enough for them to understand orders and give basic orders. YEs you can play as them if you want to, apparently you do so don't let me stop you. But I am trying to discuss why I don't think they fit. if you don't agree then fine but I don't appreciate being called racist for playing the game based on established fluff. Yes the fluff has gone through many iterations but there are parts that remain fairly consistent, it is these parts that I think should be respected.

 

The imperium is a misinformed xenophobic race and I believe this is the way it should be role played to get the full effect of the grimdarkness of the universe. this means humans looking down on abhumans as little better then Xenos.

 

In short this is my opinion if you don't agree then fine but my opinion is generally shared amongst my group and works for us so this is how we play. Also I'm sorry if it seemed like I was "shouting", I did not mean for it to come across this way, I merely meant to reinforce my opinion with background information from the lore.


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