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Conversion - Import Only War Mechanics to Dark Heresy


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#21 sanguinemetaldawn

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:27 AM

AtoMaki said:

sanguinemetaldawn said:

 And again, yes, the Tech Priest is better with Tech-Use, but the Operator don't suck in a stealthy Squad.

See, this is actually one of the issues with the class.  There is nothing stopping the Tech-Priest from acquiring the Agility Aptitude, making himself substantially quieter.  In fact, given the massive number of Characteristic Aptitudes the TP gets, its likely a TP will be able to choose one (such as Agility) that he wishes, making him better at Stealth and good at Acrobatics, of all things.

 



#22 Gokerz

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 07:03 AM

sanguinemetaldawn said:

 

See, this is actually one of the issues with the class.  There is nothing stopping the Tech-Priest from acquiring the Agility Aptitude, making himself substantially quieter.  In fact, given the massive number of Characteristic Aptitudes the TP gets, its likely a TP will be able to choose one (such as Agility) that he wishes, making him better at Stealth and good at Acrobatics, of all things.

 

 

The Techpriest with Agility barely reaches the point of not being actively detrimental to a stealth focused squad, but the Operator will excel in it (there is much more to being a good infiltrator than just having a good stealth skill, and the Op gets the most comprehensive Infiltrator package of all the OW specialities, easily outpacing even Ratling and ST in that role).

Honestly, the more I look at it the more I think the Operator is actually the all around better choice for a group than the Techpriest. The combo ST+Op seems much better balanced than ST + TP. The ST is wasted on driving a tank, with his access to one of the best weapons in OW every round that he doesn't shoot it at the enemy is a round that's badly used. The TP in the ST+TP combo would have to be the gunner, which isn't ideal. On average, the vecicle with ST+Op will be shooting twice as many weapons at the enemy as the vehicle with ST+TP. If a vehicle with ST+TP goes up against one with ST+Op, the former will be crushed, being seriously lacking in damage potential compared to the latter.

Tech use is one the easier skills to increase via items, and I can't really think of situations where the Operator won't be 'good enough' for anything you might need Tech-Use for (TP starts with Omnitool, Operator with MIU). The knowledge skills are nice, but don't come into play as often in a OW campaign and are mostly reactive. The TP will outperform the Op in white-room personal scale combat situations, but the huge amound by which an Op outdoes a TP in damage potential while in vehicle combat pretty much balances that.



#23 sanguinemetaldawn

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 12:20 PM

Gokerz said:

sanguinemetaldawn said:

The thing is, in play, I would always choose the ST over the Operator and select the Intelligence Aptitude, if I wanted to play an Operator.

 

That is your prefference.

…(snip)…

 

I just disagree with the assertion that the ST's pros you mention make him objectively better than the Operator.

Note: I do really like you analysis, so please don't take my critique personal. Some people, especially on these forum, seem contractually obliged to critizise any thread about looking at the numbers involved in the game as powergaming, min-maxing, 'rollplaying', and done by obvious WoW players. I don't want to seem like one of them to you!

…(snip)…

I don't, no biggie ;) 

The thing about numbers is players will do it anyway, whether people like powergaming or not.  And as I see it, in this case it looks like the game massively rewards deliberate powergaming (via STs), and the point of the conversion is to give the Operator/Adept a much more distinctive and outstanding role.

Basically this is the thing, I do think the Stormtrooper is objectively better, and I am unhappy about that.

Lets start with Characteristic Advance tables; we assume additional Aptitudes are chosen so as to maximize similarity, enabling as direct a comparison as possible.  To this end, the ST chooses Intelligence and Fellowship, while the Operator chooses Toughness, and with his extra Aptitude, chooses Perception, in order to have one Characteristic with a simple cost of 100 XP.  Here are the resulting tables:

Operator

                                 Simple    Intermediate    Trained      Expert
Weapon Skill         500          750                    1000           2500
Ballistic Skill          250          500                    750             1000

Strength                 500          750                    1000           2500
Toughness           250          500                     750             1000

              
Agility                     250           500                   750               1000
Intelligence          250           500                   750               1000


Perception           100          250                   500              1000
Willpower             500          750                   1000           2500

             
Fellowship          250           500                  750              1000

                   

Stormtrooper

                                 Simple    Intermediate    Trained      Expert
Weapon Skill         250          500                     750             1000
Ballistic Skill          100          250                     500             750

Strength                 250          500                     750             1000
Toughness           250          500                      750             1000

Agility                     100           250                    500              750
Intelligence          250           500                    750              1000

Perception           250           500                    750               1000
Willpower             500          750                    1000             2500

Fellowship          250           500                    750               1000

For an Operator to purchase all of his Simple advances, it will cost him 2850 XP.  For a Stormtrooper:   2200 XP

For all Intermediate advances: Operator:  5000  For Stormtrooper: 4250

So far the Operator has paid 1400 XP for exactly the same thing: across the board Simple and Intermediate advances.  Not to mention the ST has the option of 4 total stats at 100 XP for Simple.  And it only gets worse for the Stormtrooper with greater advances.

At Trained it is (7250 -  6500) a 750 XP, gap again, and…

And at Expert   (13,500 - 10,000) an enormous 3,500 XP gap in cost for the same thing.

Yes, intelligent choices will minimize the impact of fundamentally higher prices for the Operator's Characteristics, but lets not kid ourselves; the Operator has a small set of viable choices.

 

OK, so maybe the Operator makes up for it in other categories: skills and talents.

And we find that the skill advancement costs are identical except for 5 skills: Awareness, Scrutiny, Security, Survival, and Tech-use.  For each of the skills the Operator has 2 matrching Aptitudes, the ST 1.  So the Operator has a 1-step edge for 5 out of 28+skills.  Mind, if desired, the ST has the option of matching the XP cost for 3 of the 5, but at cost to 3 social skills.

Lets have a look at talents.  The Operator has 9 different talents for which he has a 1-Aptitude advantage over the ST.  But then we look at the Stormtrooper: he has a 1-Aptitude advantage over the Operator for 37 Talents; more than quadruple. 

I hope that Comrade is really good, because he has a serious hill to climb.

Interestingly, in the previous example of the Operator whose comrade would take the hit for him, that option is specific to Psyker only.  Which means the GM was forced alter the OW core rules to make the class more viable.  Ironically, there is one class that by core rules could take the hit to protect the Operator: the Stormtrooper.

 

I simply do not see it as an opinion; I see it as an unhappy fact.



#24 AtoMaki

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 09:28 PM

sanguinemetaldawn said:

Interestingly, in the previous example of the Operator whose comrade would take the hit for him, that option is specific to Psyker only.  Which means the GM was forced alter the OW core rules to make the class more viable.  Ironically, there is one class that by core rules could take the hit to protect the Operator: the Stormtrooper.

 

Guess you refer to my case there, so I must add: no, the GM didn't have to alter the core rules. The player simply grappled his Comrade, and literally used him as a shield. Otherwise, the Operator has the most specifically useless Comrade. That guy is only good when the Operator is driving a vehicle and completely worthless in any other cases. But this "situational dead weight" effect is an overarching problem with Comrades :(






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