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Mauler vs Alpha


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#21 spacemonkeymafia

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 05:30 AM

Herrgeist said:

Im partial a little since my Backstabber took out Han, but I see what you are saying. Plus I think Backstabber is better than MM. 

I agree, Mauler's reckless obsession to get within range 1 usually leads to an early death for me.  Now the large ships having more firing arcs (YT going 360 even), it's harder for him to get in range 1 and not take a range 1 attack back.  Backstabber can at least kite the big ship at a distance and hopefully survive a little longer.  Also Backstabber seems to solo better.

Regarding Alpha vs Mauler, I think I'll take an Alpha every time (I've had terrible luck with MM and need to switch to something else).  I don't see the high pilot skill being enough of an advantage since it can be mitigated with swarm tactics or squad leader from a high PS wingman.  I could see an argument made regarding taking Mauler + PTL over an Avenger Squadron pilot because the double action can give Mauler a bit more flexibity over the standard interceptor.

Something else that just came to mind- so far we've been basing this discussion on what would you take when building your squad.  I think the results would take a different turn if we looked at it during an actual game and said what ship would you rather have as you last surviving ship: MM or Alpha. I think Mauler might get more votes if he was your last chance to win the game.

Another Hypothetical: two players are down to their last ship each, one has Mauler + veteran instincts, the other has an Alpha (both undamaged).  Who wins the match?  I think most can agree that Mauler has a higher chance of winning this set up given equally skilled opponents.



#22 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:05 AM

spacemonkeymafia said:

Another Hypothetical: two players are down to their last ship each, one has Mauler + veteran instincts, the other has an Alpha (both undamaged).  Who wins the match?  I think most can agree that Mauler has a higher chance of winning this set up given equally skilled opponents.

I strongly disagree. Mauler's only hope is to pick up shots positioned at Range 1 outside the Interceptor's firing arc, but Boost makes that unlikely. The Interceptor has an offensive edge, a better maneuver dial, and a more versatile action bar. 

Mauler has no advantage except that he shoots first, and in "heads up" play that's not necessarily even a good thing.



#23 spacemonkeymafia

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 11:39 AM

Interesting assumption.  His advantage goes beyond just shooting first (which I don't know how that is ever a bad thing when you're down to heads up play??), he moves and reacts after the Alpha, which, in head's up is a huge advantage.  Boosting and Barrel Rolling before you get to see your opponent's movement is guesswork and hoping you don't end up screwing yourself over.  Mauler will see where Alpha ends up and will always choose the best action option.  Given 1000 such battles, I think Mauler will win more often than he loses.



#24 Duraham

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 11:58 AM

spacemonkeymafia said:

Interesting assumption.  His advantage goes beyond just shooting first (which I don't know how that is ever a bad thing when you're down to heads up play??), he moves and reacts after the Alpha, which, in head's up is a huge advantage.  Boosting and Barrel Rolling before you get to see your opponent's movement is guesswork and hoping you don't end up screwing yourself over.  Mauler will see where Alpha ends up and will always choose the best action option.  Given 1000 such battles, I think Mauler will win more often than he loses.

It applies if the alpha player isnt experienced enough, and even if he does not do a roll or boost, if he evades all the time, he only needs one evade result out of 3/4 dices so long as he isnt in range 1 of MM. In short, unless the alpha player is throwing all blanks or the MM player is able to continuously range 1 him, the MM player is at a rather obvious disadvantage

#25 Torresse

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 11:59 AM

spacemonkeymafia said:

Interesting assumption.  His advantage goes beyond just shooting first (which I don't know how that is ever a bad thing when you're down to heads up play??), he moves and reacts after the Alpha, which, in head's up is a huge advantage.  Boosting and Barrel Rolling before you get to see your opponent's movement is guesswork and hoping you don't end up screwing yourself over.  Mauler will see where Alpha ends up and will always choose the best action option.  Given 1000 such battles, I think Mauler will win more often than he loses.

spacemonkeymafia said:

Interesting assumption.  His advantage goes beyond just shooting first (which I don't know how that is ever a bad thing when you're down to heads up play??), he moves and reacts after the Alpha, which, in head's up is a huge advantage.  Boosting and Barrel Rolling before you get to see your opponent's movement is guesswork and hoping you don't end up screwing yourself over.  Mauler will see where Alpha ends up and will always choose the best action option.  Given 1000 such battles, I think Mauler will win more often than he loses.

Lets say Mauler rolls a hit and focus, two blanks. does he, or does he not use his focus? 

When its alphas turn, he will be able to choose when the best time to use the focus is



#26 Duraham

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 12:05 PM

Torresse said:

spacemonkeymafia said:

Interesting assumption.� His advantage goes beyond just shooting first (which I don't know how that is ever a bad thing when you're down to heads up play??), he moves and reacts after the Alpha, which, in head's up is a huge advantage.� Boosting and Barrel Rolling before you get to see your opponent's movement is guesswork and hoping you don't end up screwing yourself over.� Mauler will see where Alpha ends up and will always choose the best action option.� Given 1000 such battles, I think Mauler will win more often than he loses.

spacemonkeymafia said:

Interesting assumption.� His advantage goes beyond just shooting first (which I don't know how that is ever a bad thing when you're down to heads up play??), he moves and reacts after the Alpha, which, in head's up is a huge advantage.� Boosting and Barrel Rolling before you get to see your opponent's movement is guesswork and hoping you don't end up screwing yourself over.� Mauler will see where Alpha ends up and will always choose the best action option.� Given 1000 such battles, I think Mauler will win more often than he loses.

Lets say Mauler rolls a hit and focus, two blanks. does he, or does he not use his focus?�

When its alphas turn, he will be able to choose when the best time to use the focus is

For MM, definitely not, if alpha is able to return fire. You are going to get blasted in your face with 4 atk dice on focus, are you sure you do not want the focus token to help with evade? Even if you do focus to get 2 hits, and assuming he also needs to use focus to evade both hits, you are back to him smashing your face in with 4 atk dice against your 3 evade dice. Why would you not want to keep the focus token for defense? Even if he takes your 2 hits, he will now pelt you with 4 atk dice on focus, which has a potential for a 1 shot wipe against TIEs without focus or evade, and that is way too big a risk to take

#27 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:05 PM

spacemonkeymafia said:

Interesting assumption.  His advantage goes beyond just shooting first (which I don't know how that is ever a bad thing when you're down to heads up play??), he moves and reacts after the Alpha, which, in head's up is a huge advantage.  Boosting and Barrel Rolling before you get to see your opponent's movement is guesswork and hoping you don't end up screwing yourself over.  Mauler will see where Alpha ends up and will always choose the best action option.  Given 1000 such battles, I think Mauler will win more often than he loses.

Most of my points have already been hit by Duraham, but the problem is that in this case Mauler's information advantage during the maneuver phase is outweighed by the Alpha's information advantage during the combat phase. 

Mauler attacks without knowing the outcome of the Alpha's return fire, and (if he has Focus) has to guess whether to spend his token on offense or reserve it for defense. When it's the Alpha's turn to attack, he already knows the outcome of Mauler's attack--so if he has Focus, he can freely spend it. Of course there's no information advantage if the Interceptor uses Evade instead, but over the long term that's actually not a good scenario for Mauler either.

I've had the Interceptor on the table a lot since the Kessel Run, and in one-on-one play the maneuverability and extra attack really do make a huge difference. 



#28 Parakitor

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:36 AM

Torresse said:

anyone follow that logic?

"Truly, you have a dizzying intelect." This has been quite the discussion, and I've enjoyed all the perspectives and 'what if's.

Me, I'd love to try "Mauler Mithel" with Veteran Instincts. Pilot Skill is pretty important (though not a deciding factor all on its own). If I had a squad full of Academy pilots and threw in a TIE interceptor, you can bet he'd be the target priority for my opponent. And with PS 1, he could get ganged up on in a hurry. But with "Mauler Mithel" at PS 9, he could conceivably barrel roll out of firing arcs, or at the very least inflict some hurt before he becomes one with the Force.

Another reason I vote "Mauler Mithel" is because he is unique. You can field more than one Alpha Squadron Pilot (by the way, I love that they pulled that name from the TIE Fighter video game). Why can't you have your cake and eat it, too? Throw "Mauler Mithel" into Alpha Squadron and I bet he'd be a great help to the team.

I reserve the right to change my opinion, but I won't write down all of my back-and-forth thoughts; you can read those in the posts others have made above.



#29 ShadowJak

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:27 PM

Herrgeist said:

MM

Being able to fire first can be the difference between winning and losing. If it was just a one on one I think it would be a clear choice. 

Yes, a clear choice against Mauler Mithel.



#30 ShadowJak

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:36 PM

Torresse said:

Mauler mithil is out manuvered, and out gunned (at 2-3) but excells with his ability to have a higher pilot skill, and ability to take a pilot skill (I would be scared of seeing a high initive mauler get behind a lower initive pilot at range 1 if he had expose :S)

Focus is more damage than Expose.



#31 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 03:07 PM

ShadowJak said:

Torresse said:

 

Mauler mithil is out manuvered, and out gunned (at 2-3) but excells with his ability to have a higher pilot skill, and ability to take a pilot skill (I would be scared of seeing a high initive mauler get behind a lower initive pilot at range 1 if he had expose :S)

 

 

Focus is more damage than Expose.

Well, not quite. If you only have 2 Attack to start with, and you don't get any bonuses from range or pilot skill, then Expose is exactly as good as Focus.

Or, at least, exactly as good as a Focus that costs 4 build points and incurs a defense penalty.



#32 Endgame124

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 04:43 PM

I have had a similar situation pop up several times, but its been something rebel vs Vader (most recent was Luke vs Vader).  Vader's high pilot skill lets him barrel roll out of fire arcs, or line up a shot he wouldn't other wise have.  Even with 1 damage on vader and a clean Luke, I lost the battle and never even got a shot off.

I'll take MM over the Alpha 4 games out of 5.



#33 Duraham

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:16 PM

Endgame124 said:

I have had a similar situation pop up several times, but its been something rebel vs Vader (most recent was Luke vs Vader). �Vader's high pilot skill lets him barrel roll out of fire arcs, or line up a shot he wouldn't other wise have. �Even with 1 damage on vader and a clean Luke, I lost the battle and never even got a shot off.

I'll take MM over the Alpha 4 games out of 5.

While it does help a lot, you can do the same trick with low PS pilots, using experience and guesswork. After all, they can only move forward, and out of those moves there are only that few moves which are considered good What most players need to really do is to play more rounds with just the core set alone. Just 1 academy 1 obisidian vs 1 rookie + torps. It is very very basic, but it covers pretty much everything the game has to offer, except boost and ions. I play this simple lineup so often, i can confidently say i do not need a high PS to line up my rolls and targetlocks most of the time. After that, it is just a matter of stepping up the game to 100pts, but it is still the exact same game, just with a little bit more ships




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