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#41 magadizer

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:16 AM

It doesn't really matter to me either way, but I do think they should include it on the FAQ. I could see the argument made that the spash damage doesn't count, because you are not the ship being targeted. I think that makes sense thematically. On the other hand, if your stealth device is damaged, it doesn't matter whether it happened because you were targeted or it just got hit by debris.

Either way it works as long as the ruling is clear. To be consistent, I will probably play at home (until official clarification is made) that the stealth device can only be removed if you are rolling green dice. If you suffer damage without having to roll to evade, then you do not lose the device.

On a related note, I hope they release version 2 of the FAQ concurrently with the Wave 2 ships being made available. After all, they have essentially had an open playtesting period with the Kessel run ships being out there, and lots of questions and discussions already requiring clarification.


Be seeing you.

#42 SteveSpikes

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:26 AM

Nice write-up, Doug.  You definitely put a lot of thought in this.

hothie said:

We also now have Assault Missiles. I know there was much ballyhoo when this was announced, but I think clearer heads have prevailed. I have used Assault Missiles twice, and have failed to hit both times. I don't think this will be quite as game-changing as people originally thought. It seems that Homing Missiles are a better choice due to not having to spend your target lock to use them.

Due to the effects of the Assault Missile, Speaking for the Empire now.  I think that a lot of the squads will be comprised of ships/pilots that function better as a "lone wolf" -- TIE Interceptors mainly, and keep the squads out of the effective range for collateral damage.  Only forming up once the Assault Missiles have been spent for a counter-attack.  I feel that ships that have these missiles will be the HVTs of the game, akin to a Y-Wing (with the requisite ion cannon).


It may just be me.  The thing I can't seem to wrap my head around, without any "official" input, is the idea of a Shield Upgrade for the rank 'n file TIE Fighters and Interceptors. *shrugs*  It will definitely help in their short-term survivablity, is for sure.



#43 hothie

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:31 AM

To clear up the bomb question, The only thing in the Firespray insert about it says: "Bomb Upgrade cards are not secondary weapons." Obviously they aren't primary weapons either, and none of the verbage talks about the bombs being an attack, or attacking. They simply say the bombs "detonate" as listed on the card. And since the bombs do not require the firespray to do anything during the combat round (when attacking occurs), I'd conclude they are not an attack, and really should be treated like a more powerful asteroid. So I would say that they would not strip the Stealth device off of Dark Curse.



#44 Picasso

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:34 AM

@Hothie, 

the most luck I've had with a large based ship is using it in support. I keep a yt along the board edges now to force opponents into the fighters firing arcs.  This is some what affective.

i agree with you that the large ships hardly get an action because of bumping.  Also most of the Kessel runs I played I just bumped the slave 1 with Arvel and blasted it at range one.  

I haven't used any of the named pilots since then because I've had incredible luck using the green squadron pilots and push the limit.  I've also used both of them with assault missiles.  I've only missed once.  Dealing two damage to an entire squad at times.  Then letting the X-Wings pick off the damaged TIEs.   The real down side to this tactic is that the splash damage doesn't get rid of stealth device.  

I've also used the engine upgrade on grey squadron pilots with ion cannons. I've found it amazing when you boost out of range of other ships and then fire back with that ion canon. 

I have found that people that won A-wings and YT100s aren't using boost enough still falling back on that focus action. The players that are boosting are doing some amazing things like, boosting out of firing arcs and range, boosting into range one,  using PTL to boost and get a focus, or turn and boost to avoid the stress token. 

Which brings me to fel.  Dare devil on this guy is sick. Being able to turn around 180 and still get a focus, sometimes still at range one, can overwhelm most new players.  I honestly think this 30 pts is better spent here than on a Vader.  

One thin I'm still struggling with is the right number of squints to field in a TIE squad?  I'm leaning twards two but I know a guy playing five of them and cleaning house. I have yet to go against him. Also I haven't seen all of his games just hearing things second hand. 



#45 Parakitor

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:46 AM

@Picasso: YES! Running Arvel into a Firespray-31 is THE way to go!

@Hothie: I second your comment about "Fel's Wrath" being underestimated. I tried him out in an Imp on Imp match (we both wanted to use our TIE Interceptors). He chose Fel, who was dangerous, but not terrible. Then I got "Fel's Wrath" positioned perfectly head-to-head against his Vader at Range 1. Vader shot first and killed him. My opponent was just about to pull my figure but I reminded him who he was dealing with, and his face fell with disappointment.

The best part was that his TIE fighter that was covering Vader's tail was in range of Fel's Wrath, but not my Vader who was just beyond him. So if his Vader had shot my Vader, he could have had both his ships attack, but he effectively negated his other TIE fighter's attack. It was a thing of beauty.

The worst part was that his Vader completely evaded "Fel's Wrath's" attack. Still, I can definitely see this pilot being useful. The trick is to play really aggressively with him. It's a waste to get "Fel's Wrath" killed in a round where he doesn't have an opponent in his firing arc.


"That starship won't fly, Bastila."


#46 Endgame124

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:17 AM

At the moment, I'm thinking that I'll be using Expose a lot out of wave 2 with my rebels.  A Green Squadron A Wing that uses Expose is very similar to a X-Wing with a larger action bar, as long as I can hand out extra actions from Dutch, Squad Leader or Garven.  Alternatively, Luke or Wedge with Expose and R2-F2 & Stealth Device can stay really defensive.. until a good shot lines up and then switch gears to being really offensive.



#47 hothie

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:12 AM

Picasso said:

I have found that people that won A-wings and YT100s aren't using boost enough still falling back on that focus action. The players that are boosting are doing some amazing things like, boosting out of firing arcs and range, boosting into range one,  using PTL to boost and get a focus, or turn and boost to avoid the stress token. 

I think this brings me back to my original point about needing to have multiple firing arcs covered. I'm glad you've found this as well, that the boost action can totally change what you can and can't attack. This is a very important point that very few people have found out, from what I have seen. Like I said earlier, for Imperials, this takes away some of the squad cohesion that was necessary in Wave 1, in favor of being able to face your ships multiple ways in order to cover different firing arcs. This takes a whole new style of play for Imperials, and I don't think many people have found that out yet. With Wave 1, there was a learning curve for how to play Imperials. With Wave 2, there's a brand new learning curve just with TIEs, not to mention the Firespray. I think once people figure out how effective the Boost action is, you will see the shift away from swarms towards individual pilots that do well by themselves.

And another point about Awings/Interceptors, they both have 3 agility. If you can learn how to fly them close to asteroids without hitting them, you will be able to use that extra die, which can be a big difference. I played a game against Ziggy, and he was skirting the asteroids very well, using them for the extra die, and it was quite effective. Especially once you throw Stealth Device onto either ship, you're rolling a lot of defense dice. This is another instance where the Boost action comes into play, because if you end your maneuver close enough to an asteroid, you can do the bank Boost and hide behind it fairly easily.



#48 ziggy2000

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:23 PM

AncientAngel said:

Running into things like asteriods and other ships should not take out the stealth device. Taking splash damage from an Attack in my oppion would take out the stealth device. The damage from the splash affect would have not occured if the attack and or action was never preformed. The attack still causes the damage even if it was not dirrectly aimed at the intended target. Players are also spending points to purchase these weapons that have these damaging affects. Taking a hit from an Attack would seem to include taking damage from an Attacks affect. 

This rule may need to be questioned and added to the FAQ's.

This has been discussed in an earlier thread:

http://www.fantasyfl...=6&efidt=764343

The general feeling is that splash damage does not remove Stealth because of the way being "hit by an attack" is defined in the rule book. There is room for the other interpretation, though, and we await the next FAQ to (hopefully) clear up many questions about Wave 2 stuff.

And to bring this back on-topic: re: Stealth Device, hothie has it right that it may be one of the big game-changers. The times I've used it (or faced it), it has proven to be very powerful. I've been victimized by that Dark Curse of his that has never been hit…

 



#49 Picasso

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:43 PM

 

What I've found that works best against Stealth Device and Dark Curse combo are four different tactics.

 

1.) As I've mentioned else where in this thread using multiple Assault Missiles to deliver splash damage to him.  You now only need to deal one damage to take him off the board.

2.) Proton Torps.  It is risky as all hell, but you can change a die with out a focus use.

3.) Using a YT-100 with Luke as a copilot.  On that second attack he can change one focus die to a hit.  

4.) The most affective, Wedge.  Three dice on three dice favors the shooter statistically.  Now you cannot reroll or focus against Dark Curse but you can use marksmanship.  OH MY GOD!  There is a use for this card!  

Before Worlds my cousin asked me why I don't use "Dark Curse" in my list and I said, "Any chump with Marksmanship will shoot him down."  I've played against the Dark Curse Combo three times now and I've found that after using him with Marksmanship in two games against it, Wedge rocks it.  Any pilot with this upgrade can do it but Wedge does it the best.  Which now brings up the age-old argument how to keep him on the board long enough to get the points out of him?



#50 Duraham

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:24 PM

Picasso said:

Which now brings up the age-old argument how to keep him on the board long enough to get the points out of him?

 

Biggs +R2F2 + stealth, chewbacca + draw their fire, R2D2 +shield upgrade on himself. no elusiveness for him since you already have marksmanship



#51 heychadwick

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:24 PM

I'm still new, but would the ion cannons play a bigger role against the new bigger ships?  The chance to knock them out is a chance to take out a bigger chunk of the enemy force.



#52 hothie

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:54 PM

As I mentioned before, the large ships need 2 Ion hits in order to be affected by them, so you're committing half of your squad at minimum just to try and Ion 1 large ship. I think you'll find most people will say it's not worth the points.



#53 Parakitor

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:35 AM

hothie said:

As I mentioned before, the large ships need 2 Ion hits in order to be affected by them, so you're committing half of your squad at minimum just to try and Ion 1 large ship. I think you'll find most people will say it's not worth the points.

I agree, it doesn't appear to be worth the points. But the large ships have a greater chance of landing on an asteroid, which means an ion hit will not only disable them, it will prevent them from attacking that turn. Now THAT has potential.


"That starship won't fly, Bastila."


#54 Endgame124

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:13 AM

Given everything that I'm seeing about imperial maneuverability w/ Tie Interceptors (and fewer ships), I'm really thinking I'm going to throw another Y Wing w/ Ion Cannon in my rebel lists at first -- at least until I see less push the limits in lists.  To really spoil highly maneuverable lists, you could go:

Lando, Expose, Weapons Engineer, Milennium Falcon
Gold Squadron, Ion Cannon, R2
Gold Squadron, Ion Cannon, R2

360 arcs of fire everywhere, and as soon as you ion cannon something (or line up a good shot), Lando can switch to expose (ideally on something target locked) and blow it out of space.  It also has 29 hit points. so if your opponent has fewer ships they may run out of punch before you take much damage.



#55 Englishpete

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:47 AM

I have been thinking the same thing. My 'defensive' squad, for dealing with high maneuverability, push the limit ships is as follows.

Gold Squadron Pilot, R2-D2, Ion Cannon

Gold Squadron Pilot, R5 unit, Ion Cannon

Chewbacca, YT-1300, Millenium Falcon, Veteran Instincts, Gunner.

 

I think that Stealth and PtL will change the meta, especially for the Imperials. I have run the A-Wings and the Interceptor with variations of Stealth and PtL builds. One ship changes the dynamic, two or more will shift the paradigm.

Both Turr and Tycho can be quite devastating when used as a strike force that comes in from the side whilst the rest of the squad keep you busy.


To every man upon this Earth Death cometh soon or late. And how can a man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his Gods?
(Horatius: Captain of the Gate)


#56 Picasso

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:46 AM

My cousin took a four ship rebel build into the Kessel run and did something most players have not been able to do.  He out maneuvered ties in the asteroid field.  He defeated ALL TIE swarms that he faced except mine.  To note he was winning our match until I rolled four crits on Wedge and then four hits with backstabber against Skywalker. 

Where am I going with this?  What I think GOOD players are going to start to do is use upgrade cards to manuver ships better than they have before wave two. Using the engine upgrade card on Y-wings with ion canons gets things done.  It takes awhile but it works.   Red squadron x-wings picking up a boost to get into range one and shoot before those academy pilots.  Players will begin to drift away from taking a focus with every ship everytime.  

What this thread is doing that not a lot of the others have even started talking about, is how do you modify your style of play, not the ships, to deal with some of the upgrades in the new wave?  



#57 Sodapopj

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:07 AM

I was playing an Imperial list yesterday I got two games in and I thought I would share my insights:

 

BTW I very much stole this list from the forums except the Sootir Fell combo(which was the lowest performer):

Back Stabber engines upgrade

Mauler Engines upgrade

Turr Push the limits

Sootir Fell - Daredevil - I have to rethink this because it didn't come up as much as I would have liked.

 

Game One I played  - A-wing Homing missile, Wedge with R2 D2, and 2 x rookie pilots. This was a newer squad for my opponent and she was having growing pains using them. Still it was an awesome game.

1) I forced myself to try to boost as my action as much as I could. I wanted try it out, and I have to say WOW. I think with the fact that I knew where my opponents final position of her ships(I had mostly higher pilot skill) I was easily able to get into a firing arc where my ships could shoot and hers couldn't. Comboing barrel roll and boost is just fantastic.

2) You have to be extra careful setting up you positions, because if you expose one of your ties they are still ties and they die very fast when X-wings are firing at range one.

3) In tight. I believe that rebel ships (barring the A-wing) are better in tight than tie's. There ability to go forward one or bank 1 gives them the edge I think in the pack. I know that Tie's have the sharp 1, but that is it the next shortest move they have is 2 forward. What I have learnt from this is once the pile starts setting up it is best to get out of dodge with a forward move five and then regroup and go back in. The Boost again is great for this. I got target locked by the A-wing, and I just flew my Tie out beyond range three regrouped and came back in for the kill before the missiles got to shoot.

 

Game two I played - 3 Interceptor (pilot skill 4) and three academy pilots. This game I lost, but I took a lot from it. I was playing a sort of swarm and I thought my ties were doomed.

 

1) Again my high pilot skill allowed me to see where all of his ships were ending up before I moved which was a big advantage. Again I just boosted into lanes where I can shoot and my opponent could not.

*note my secound move with FELL was a K turn 3 which had him in front of 4 ties facing the wrong way!! lesson always double check your dials. LOL

2) when you make that first pass and you 'get out of dodge' I used boost a few times to get myself out of fire ranges. Totally stole Hothie's barrel  roll push the limits boost on Turr worked beautifully.

3) The lesson that ended up being the end of me. When you are in tight get out of there rather than doing a sharp 1 or lazy two. What happened was I went to turn and bumped and that in turned bumped my other ship and left me exposed and with out actions. My ties went down like chumps. Until this poin the game looked like it was mine. I was a head in points and I was in a good position, but I got cocky like a kid from Tatooine.

 

I have to say the game felt more dynamic with this list. Rather than formation flying I was broken up and weaving and dodging. It made the game feel more intense. I am looking forward to seeing how the guys who are going to stick with the low pilot skill formation squads change to adapt to maneuverable squads to keep them in their sites.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#58 spacemonkeymafia

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:23 AM

hothie said:

As I mentioned before, the large ships need 2 Ion hits in order to be affected by them, so you're committing half of your squad at minimum just to try and Ion 1 large ship. I think you'll find most people will say it's not worth the points.

Remember that that 1st Ion token remains on the ship for the whole game until a second Ion hit happens.  You don't technically need 2 ships with Ion attacks as you can hit the large ship once and then just wait for the large ship to make a bad move, hit it again with the ion attack and let it careen itself off the map.  A large ship with an Ion token on it can start to get real limited in where it moves.  Especially the Firespray which doesn't have that critical 1 speed hard right/left turn.



#59 Parakitor

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:35 AM

spacemonkeymafia said:

hothie said:

 

As I mentioned before, the large ships need 2 Ion hits in order to be affected by them, so you're committing half of your squad at minimum just to try and Ion 1 large ship. I think you'll find most people will say it's not worth the points.

 

 

Remember that that 1st Ion token remains on the ship for the whole game until a second Ion hit happens.  You don't technically need 2 ships with Ion attacks as you can hit the large ship once and then just wait for the large ship to make a bad move, hit it again with the ion attack and let it careen itself off the map.  A large ship with an Ion token on it can start to get real limited in where it moves.  Especially the Firespray which doesn't have that critical 1 speed hard right/left turn.

That is excellent! I remembered that they held onto the token, but it never occurred to me that this might alter the way the player flies their big ship(s). Maybe Wedge + Biggs + Gold w/ ion x2 will still be viable. Although I understand your point about only needing one ion cannon, in my experience attacks against ships with 3 agility rarely deal more than one damage anyway, so I don't see the Ion Cannon Turret as much of a sacrifice. It's definitely a boon.


"That starship won't fly, Bastila."


#60 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 06:53 AM

Picasso said:

My cousin took a four ship rebel build into the Kessel run and did something most players have not been able to do.  He out maneuvered ties in the asteroid field.  He defeated ALL TIE swarms that he faced except mine.  To note he was winning our match until I rolled four crits on Wedge and then four hits with backstabber against Skywalker. 

Where am I going with this?  What I think GOOD players are going to start to do is use upgrade cards to manuver ships better than they have before wave two. Using the engine upgrade card on Y-wings with ion canons gets things done.  It takes awhile but it works.   Red squadron x-wings picking up a boost to get into range one and shoot before those academy pilots.  Players will begin to drift away from taking a focus with every ship everytime.  

What this thread is doing that not a lot of the others have even started talking about, is how do you modify your style of play, not the ships, to deal with some of the upgrades in the new wave?  

I was comparing Wave 2 notes with another local player last night, and it occurred to me that there are a couple of simple questions I think every squad should be able to answer in the new meta. It might be an oversimplification, but I think it has some value:

1) Now that 3 Agility and Stealth are both part of the meta, how are you going to deal with Agility 4 ships in a tournament time limit? 

2) Now that both factions have a cool new ship with double-digit hit points, how are you going to kill a ship that can absorb that kind of damage?

Not every opponent will field either of those things, and against some opponents you might be able to simply ignore the tank or zippy little mosquitoes. But many lists will force you to do at least one, so it might be worth some thought.






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