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Quick Strike Talent question


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#21 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 03:44 AM

DeadInkPen said:

Donovan Morningfire said:

Here is the name, position of who sent me the email answering that question.

Chris Gerber
Managing RPG Producer
 

I have never had a general customer service reply to any rules/mechanics related question from FFG yet. Hope that helps you out for it.

Fair enough.

I personally don't agree with the ruling, but I can always house-rule otherwise for my own games if the situation comes up.


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#22 lupex

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 08:40 AM

Donovan Morningfire said:

Fair enough.

I personally don't agree with the ruling, but I can always house-rule otherwise for my own games if the situation comes up.

The way I read it is that the RAW for this talent says that you get a boost dice against an enemy that 'has not acted', whilst RAW for other talents says 'per turn', which is how I made my ruling.

It is interesting dono that for this talent you don't ascribe to the 'common sense' approach and feel that more clarification text needs adding, whilst for other rules queries you have said that added clarification text isn't needed as people should use 'common sense'.

 I would say that if the rules are brief, then take them as they are and use common sense for the rest.

but that's just my opinion, that and £2 will get you a coffee. 


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#23 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:39 AM

lupex said:

It is interesting dono that for this talent you don't ascribe to the 'common sense' approach and feel that more clarification text needs adding, whilst for other rules queries you have said that added clarification text isn't needed as people should use 'common sense'.

I would say that if the rules are brief, then take them as they are and use common sense for the rest.

I think that's part of the problem in this instance, is that the rules are brief.  Having done RPG design work both officially and unofficially, I've run headfist into the issue of too much brevity.

Could be that to me, Quick Strike equates to the d20 Sneak Attack feature, only instead of working against flat-footed/unaware targets like Sneak Attack does, the Quick Strike talent just means you got the drop on your target in some way.  Also from a lot of time spent playing Star Wars minis, where similar abilities (bonus to hit and/or damage if target hasn't acted/been activated that round) existed, namely Advantageous Attack (bonus to damage) and Cunning Attack (bonus to hit and damage).  Maybe part of why the official response was "per encounter" was a reaction to how easy it was in D&D (particularly 4e) for a character to get their Sneak Attack damage on a round-to-round basis.

That and one of the cases against Quick Strike being a "per round" was that it was deemed too powerful.  And yet, for a paltry 350 credits, a character with a blaster carbine/rifle can enjoy a Boost Die to all their attacks no matter when they act in the round via the Forearm Grip with the Mod (Accurate +1) quality.  The cheapest that Quick Strike can be obtained is at 10 XP and only under 3 specializations that are each under a different career.

Plus, for those specialications, it's pretty much a required talent if you want to advance further along the talent tree, and one thing I strongly dislike is a player feeling like they are being forced to spend valuable character resources on something they may only occassionally get to use.

As for "common sense," I'd be wary of using that as a blanket statement, given that a lot of folks' "common sense" told them that the successes leftover after the initial one to hit your target was accounted for (i.e. rolled 3 successes, damage bonus is +2 for those 2 successes above what you needed to hit) rather than what Jay clarified it to be.

By the same token, the "hasn't acted" could also be taken to mean that if the bad guys do something that triggers a combat encounter, even if it's not attacking, before initiative is rolled, then they've technically "acted" during the combat, and Quick Strike would be useless.  Probably not the intent, but one of the players at my table posed this question (for what it's worth, he's a contract laywer by profession, so exact wording is a day-to-day aspect of what he does to provide for his family), and I doubt he'd be the only person to wonder something like that.

Maybe I am overthinking it, but after 20+ years in this hobby and exposure to a wide variety of RPG rules (some good, some not so good), I tend not to just accept rules at face value without thinking them over, if only to try and get a better grasp of what was intended rather than simply what was written.


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#24 lupex

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 08:44 PM

Fair enough buddy, how you interpret the rules in your game is up to you.  And as GM its always going to be your call.

However, I would advise against comparing the rules in Edge to the rules in other systems, as you have said yourself, we need to unlearn what all the years of D20 micro-rules -for-everything have taught us.

Trust your feelings……


"Given a choice between calling upon a bounty hunter or a Jedi, folks turned
to the Jedi because we worked for free and are concerned about collateral
damage." - Jedi Master Luke Skywalker

#25 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:10 PM

Lupex,
Please avoid the preaching.  It's really not necessary.

And given there are other instances where the rules are nebulous, for most gamers it's going to be up to them to figure out what those rules mean.  On the surface, Quick Strike can and has been read by others (not just me) as being once per round because of the printed lack of a qualifer.

As for dropping the "what you've learned from other systems," it's that very trait of keeping in mind the information from other systems, where they worked and where they failed, that helped land me a freelancing gig with Wizards of the Coast, and it's proven quite useful on a number of other occasions of untangling a number of thorny and unclear rules issues in this game and a plethora of others.

Far as I'm concerned, it's a dead issue.  There's an official ruling, and while I don't agree with it for reasons already cited, I'm not going to argue that the designers screwed it up the way some other folks on the FFG boards have done about design decisions that FFG has made, Jedi and dice system being the two big ones.


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#26 borithan

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:19 PM

Donovan Morningfire said:

 

Could be that to me, Quick Strike equates to the d20 Sneak Attack feature, only instead of working against flat-footed/unaware targets like Sneak Attack does, the Quick Strike talent just means you got the drop on your target in some way.  Also from a lot of time spent playing Star Wars minis, where similar abilities (bonus to hit and/or damage if target hasn't acted/been activated that round) existed, namely Advantageous Attack (bonus to damage) and Cunning Attack (bonus to hit and damage).  Maybe part of why the official response was "per encounter" was a reaction to how easy it was in D&D (particularly 4e) for a character to get their Sneak Attack damage on a round-to-round basis.

That and one of the cases against Quick Strike being a "per round" was that it was deemed too powerful.  And yet, for a paltry 350 credits, a character with a blaster carbine/rifle can enjoy a Boost Die to all their attacks no matter when they act in the round via the Forearm Grip with the Mod (Accurate +1) quality.  The cheapest that Quick Strike can be obtained is at 10 XP and only under 3 specializations that are each under a different career.

Plus, for those specialications, it's pretty much a required talent if you want to advance further along the talent tree, and one thing I strongly dislike is a player feeling like they are being forced to spend valuable character resources on something they may only occassionally get to use.

As for "common sense," I'd be wary of using that as a blanket statement, given that a lot of folks' "common sense" told them that the successes leftover after the initial one to hit your target was accounted for (i.e. rolled 3 successes, damage bonus is +2 for those 2 successes above what you needed to hit) rather than what Jay clarified it to be.

By the same token, the "hasn't acted" could also be taken to mean that if the bad guys do something that triggers a combat encounter, even if it's not attacking, before initiative is rolled, then they've technically "acted" during the combat, and Quick Strike would be useless.  Probably not the intent, but one of the players at my table posed this question (for what it's worth, he's a contract laywer by profession, so exact wording is a day-to-day aspect of what he does to provide for his family), and I doubt he'd be the only person to wonder something like that.

 

I would say that I suspect it should be read as "formally acted within the combat" as it means you have caught the target enemy off balance. This could even by reacting to their move much more quickly than they expected, so even if they are the ones that instigated the combat you should get the bonus. "Aha - Sneak Atta…. Ow! Get him, he's bloody quick!"

 

As far as comparison to sneak attack: I don't think it compared to that. Instead it compares more to some of the feats you get which give you bonuses against those who had not yet acted in an encounter (can't remember any off the top of my head, but they certainly exist). Also, comparing it to an item that everyone bought is… well, yes, everyone can buy it including the character with Quick Strike, meaning they get both bonuses. Net result, person with Quick Strike is still better off.

Also, I see it being used quite frequently… almost every combat in fact, just only once. With the Initiative system as it is there are almost always going to be slots where players go before NPCs. Unless there is a real reason someone needs to go first (examples from WFRP 3rd, which I have more experience with: Priest needs to get buffing spell up, Wizard needs to get away from the Rat Ogre NOW), players are going to be very willing to give the person who gets a bonus from going earlier first slot, or at least an earlier slot, giving them plenty of targets to shoot at who have not yet acted. The one exception is where one target really needs to be dealt with and that happens to be one that has acted earlier. Unless facing a bunch of ninja monkeys (WFRP: Skaven), it will serve a purpose. This is unlike the feats in d20 where just rolling bad in Intiative means you don't get to use those abilities as you just got a 2.

Also, if it became "targets who have not acted yet this round" it basically becomes "99% of the time person gets an extra dice", as they will largely target those who haven't acted yet (again special initiative means you are likely to have some slots before some of the NPCs). This is on top of the fact that special circumstances aside, targets that have not yet acted are more tempting targets anyway (as if you remove them from the fight the opposing side has lost an action this turn).



#27 LethalDose

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 01:00 PM

 

lupex said:

 

Fair enough buddy, how you interpret the rules in your game is up to you.  And as GM its always going to be your call.

However, I would advise against comparing the rules in Edge to the rules in other systems, as you have said yourself, we need to unlearn what all the years of D20 micro-rules -for-everything have taught us.

Trust your feelings……

 

 

 

Donovan Morningfire said:

 

Lupex,
Please avoid the preaching.  It's really not necessary.

And given there are other instances where the rules are nebulous, for most gamers it's going to be up to them to figure out what those rules mean.  On the surface, Quick Strike can and has been read by others (not just me) as being once per round because of the printed lack of a qualifer.

As for dropping the "what you've learned from other systems," it's that very trait of keeping in mind the information from other systems, where they worked and where they failed, that helped land me a freelancing gig with Wizards of the Coast, and it's proven quite useful on a number of other occasions of untangling a number of thorny and unclear rules issues in this game and a plethora of others.

Far as I'm concerned, it's a dead issue.  There's an official ruling, and while I don't agree with it for reasons already cited, I'm not going to argue that the designers screwed it up the way some other folks on the FFG boards have done about design decisions that FFG has made, Jedi and dice system being the two big ones.

 

 

I don't really see how you can accuse Lupex of preaching.  He's pointing out what's good for your table is good for your table, and repeating what you pointed out in other threads.  If he takes less than two lines to restate what you've said in paragraphs, and you call what he's doing "preaching", what you doing?

And really, it's an incredibly minor rule that almost no impact on the game. I don't see how you can reasonably compare this ruling to the game's fundamental dice mechanic or other sweeping design choices.

-WJL


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#28 lupex

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:50 PM

I have just had a chance to listen to the recent Order 66 podcast, it brought a smile to my face hearing Sam Stewart, lead developer for edge of the empire, answering the unnecessarily repeated question about quike strike by checking the book and referring directly to RAW.


"Given a choice between calling upon a bounty hunter or a Jedi, folks turned
to the Jedi because we worked for free and are concerned about collateral
damage." - Jedi Master Luke Skywalker




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