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Clue tokens while fighting Acient One


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#1 Broth32

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:06 AM

When the AO (boss) arrives do are investigators able to keep clue token(s) for extra rolls or do you discard them prior to the fight?



#2 Tibs

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:22 AM

Unless the Ancient One says you discard them, you get to keep them. As normal, they can be spent on skill checks.

Take note of Nyarlathotep. He devours all investigators who begin the fight with no clue tokens!

Also take note that, like money, investigators cannot gain clue tokens during the final battle, at all. This might only be relevant when you have an expansion, but it's an important rule.



#3 Broth32

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:51 AM

Thank you for the quick reply.  I'm fairly new to AH (have only played 6-7 times) but why even try to seal gates?  You could just collect all the clue tokens and use them vs. the Acient One.  We have yet to come close to sealing 6 gates  (most we've got were 4)  - so if the doom track is closing in on the A.O. to spwan then is it good strategy to just collect and not spend clue token for additional roles?



#4 Tibs

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 08:01 AM

This is a touchy subject. You should be sealing gates because it's in the spirit of the game, but more importantly, final combats were supposed to be difficult. For every AO except Nyarlathotep, clue tokens during final combat are somewhat useful. They can be used to help you on your defense check. Since Nyarlathotep attacks your clue supply, one easy way to topple him in combat is to just amass a load of clues. Something else that could be done (against ANY AO: even Physically Immune ones) is that you could dump all your clues into a single attack with the Shotgun, since 6s rolled count as two hits.

There are a couple of ways around this potential exploit. Kingsport comes with an Epic Battle deck of cards, that randomizes combat and makes it more difficult overall. Kingsport, Dunwich, and Innsmouth all come with new Ancient Ones that are actually severely more difficult to fight in final combat than the base-game AOs. Lastly, the designer suggested a rule that states that each investigator cannot spend more clues during a round of final combat than there are Elder Signs on the board. This discourages gearing up for combat in favor of sealing later into the game.

But, you are right. If it looks much more likely that the Ancient One is going to awaken, then it might be a good idea to change gears and start preparing yourself for the battle. It's a tense time, and actually one of the highlights of the game. I employ this tactic too, but I use one more rule: my Epic Battle deck is actually smaller when there are fewer seals on the board. Though I have no problems with final combat victories, I try to emphasize sealing as much as possible, because most of my final combats are failures anyway.

 

Also note that clues don't give you additional rolls. They give you additional dice. This makes them much better for defense than for offense.



#5 Julia

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 09:51 AM

All what Tibs said. Plus, not all AO are so easy to defeat in Final Battle. You're probably playing only vanilla Arkham, which is perfectly fine, and a great game, but the eight guys from the base set are not too difficult to defeat. If the game appeals to you, and you decide to start adding expansions, you'll notice that some AOs are almost impossible to beat in final combat, even if you are loaded with clues.

Plus, Arkham is a great strategical game. If you don't mind, I'd suggest you to work more on the sealing victories. They are not that difficult to achieve once you've mastered the basic strategies (never enter an OW without enough clues for a seal, never waste clues on skill checks unless it's something vital for your investigations, never spend too much time fighting monsters when you can remove them from the board by closing matching gates) and you've got that some locations are more vulnerable to gate openings than others (and so, if you focus on them in your sealing strategy, you'll probably have some moments to respite).

When I started playing Arkham (back in 2007), I thought winning by sealing was impossible. After some games, things finally started to have sense, and it was a lot easier :-)

If you're in need for advice on basic strategy, there are some good hints on the "strategy" page of the Arkham wiki, or you can come here and ask. There is always someone watching over this forum, and our big, welcoming family will certainly help you

For now… welcome to the Carnival, and happy gaming :-)


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#6 The Professor

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:37 PM

As I'm coming close to the final rounds of my anniversary game against one particularly nasty AO in which every gate opening is a Gate Burst (this is something you first encounter with the expansions), sometimes the best defense is tryly the best offense.  We're now racing back to Arkham to get Blessed and have Allies join the team…before it's too late.  By the way, the GOO currently has 9 of 13 Doom Tokens and not a single place has an Elder Sign.

Good times, good times!


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#7 Lord Jure

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:27 PM

You can never be too sure with Epic battle cards. In one of my 4 player game I managed to collect 10 allies. The only reason I couldn't get 11th one was because terror track rose up and removed him before I got the chance. Anyway, the ancient one was the same one The Professor is describing, and the very first card in epic deck was that every investigator rolls dice equal to the current number of elder signs on the board and be devoured if he has no success. Guess what, there were no elder signs on the board. I would lose the game right there despite managing to gather such a merry team to fight Atlach. Luckily, I had the perfect card just for the ocasion that saved me from losing, the one that prevents Ancient one's entire attack for one turn.

Anyway, just my example why you should try to win by closing or sealing.



#8 Julia

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 09:09 PM

The Professor said:

By the way, the GOO currently has 9 of 13 Doom Tokens and not a single place has an Elder Sign.

Ups… no ES on the board? ANY? Sounds like a tough end of of the game…


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#9 The Professor

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 10:53 PM

Atlach is particularly tough because every gate opening is a Gate Burst. The only other time I played against him, the Investigators won because we managed to close all of the gates (over two or three rounds, the same placed were hit with gates…so instead, surges). This time, they're all bright, shiny new gates, with three currently open in Dunwich.

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#10 Julia

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:38 AM

The Professor said:

Atlach is particularly tough because every gate opening is a Gate Burst.

 

Yeah, I'm quite aware of that. Nonetheless, I'm 5-0 against Atlach (and one of those victories was a league scenario with only KH in play, so all gate activities were on the main board). I find him… kinda boring, but not particularly difficult. I mean, the point is getting three seals in medium - low frequency locations and then manage a good strategy to cohordinate your team and put the last three seals on the board at the same time. Its doom track is quite long, so you should have enough time to manage how to do this properly. Clearly, if during Mythos zero a gate opens at Independence Square, I won't dive into that gate until very late in the game. Eventual monster surges are better than keeping investing clues on useless seals. With the Dunwich board in play, you should have 6 low frequency locations and at least 4 (can't remember exactly the frequency of gate openings in Dunwich) medium freq, so, sooner or later some of the seals put there should resist a number of turns big enough to allow you scoring the victory

If you have all exp boards in play, all the better, speed Arkham in this case is of greater help.


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#11 Tibs

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:46 AM

Atlach is a monster. Dart for gates immediately, and only seal if you have enough clues. By some miracle you might win by 6 seals. At the very least, if a gate is burst, that won't add a doom token.

No surprise he's the #1 badass.



#12 eiterorm

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:01 AM

Tibs said:

At the very least, if a gate is burst, that won't add a doom token.

You don't add doom tokens when a gate burst breaks a seal? I guess I've been doing it wrong in my previous games, then. Yet another example of me being too harsh on the investigators. =P



#13 The Professor

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:38 AM

@ Julia ~ thank you, my friend…even after nearly 100 games, I don't tend to think in terms of low frequency and high frequesncy gates, as I've had games which have caught me completely by surprise by opening a number of low frequency gates again and again.  But, you're recommended strategy again is quite sound.

@ Tibs ~ thanks!  I haven't checked out his stats on your page, but it makes sense that he's at the top-tier AO

 

@ eiterorn ~ yeah, even though I know it doesn't add a Doom Token, it's still frustrating when you spend the Clue Tokens to have the torn away with the Gate Burst. 


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#14 Tibs

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:13 PM

It's no surprise that A-N is at the top of the list, but when I assigned arbitrary coloration based on win percent, it turns out Atlach is the only one that occupies the "top tier." And you're right, when you play with Dunwich and/or Innsmouth, all the extra unstable locations make high frequency and low frequency pretty meaningless.



#15 The Professor

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:55 PM

In the end, a Rift appeared in Kingsport releasing a monster during the 17th round and a monster and a Doom Token...unfortunately, the Investigators failed to arrive at either the South Church or Ma's Boarding House…all were devoured


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