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Cards that don't look amazing but are


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#21 geki

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:10 AM

The easiest way to solve this is to disallow re-drawing discarded cards which allow re-drawing cards. IBAT could be re-ruled as to be eliminated from the game after being played.



#22 D.Knight Sevus

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 08:48 AM

agnos said:

Xenu's Paradox said:

 

It Binds All Things is borderline broken. It's the linchpin of the game's first infinite combo, and while said combo is extremely difficult to pull off, requiring 5 cards, it speaks to the potential of IBAT to fuel all kinds of crazy shenanigans. I wouldn't be surprised if FFG had to errata it at some point to remove the ability to fetch more than one card.

 

 

Requiring 5 cards?  Only requires 3: 2 IBAT and 1 useful event (Jedi Mind Trick, Swindled, Rebel Assault, etc.).  The problem of said combo is that if you don't already have board control or close to it, then it's just a huge resource sink where you don't really get to see many new cards to advance board state.  

The definition Paradox is using for infinite combo is a loop that can be repeated an arbitrarily large number of times in a single turn. In order to do that, you need Leia Organa, both It Binds All Things, Rescue Mission, and You're My Only Hope. With those cards you may repeat the cycle until you run out of cards in your command deck.

That being said, I think It Binds All Things is a very good card, but not a broken one. In fact, I'd hesitate to say that any card in the game so far is broken.



#23 cooleo1c

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 10:02 AM



#24 agnos

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 10:31 AM

Xenu's Paradox said:

Unless you have a way of refreshing resources. Currently, the combo is Leia + 2x IBAT + Rescue Mission + any event that removes Leia from play. However, FFG now has to be very careful about introducing LS effects that refresh resources, because such a card could conceivably reduce the complexity of the combo. For instance, an event that allows you to refresh multiple enhancements could replace Leia, Rescue Mission, and the removal event, dropping the combo down to 3 cards.

Fair enough.  Granted I'm not sure this 5 card combo can actually win you the game even if you are able to generate infinite resources.  Presumably you would have to be able to do 12 damage ( getting 3 unopposed bonus).  The combo so far requires pod 7 x2, pod 10 x2 and pod 16 x2.  Pod 7 gives you 8 blast icons; Pod 10 gives you 4 blast icons; Pod 16 gives you 0 blast icons.  So theoretically, you can use the combo with You're My Only Hope to draw your whole deck.  I think the combo can be disrupted with 1 Force Choke however as at some point you have to be playing cards out.  One It's Worse also negates Leia's trigger which can prevent it from going off in the mean time.  Plus the combo is so unlikely to get all the pieces at once that it's not worth playing.  But as you say, if FFG makes more ways to draw cards or refresh then it could be quite possible.



#25 Ravncat

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:13 PM

Requiring so many cards, and having many ways in which the (infinite) combo can be disrupted (or shut down entirely) such as; Dark side destroys units that give resources (mon mothma, r2), or already has a captured character = 50% chance it ends when you dont get leia back (if they're low on resources) (Dark side can use detained or boba fet to get a second capture in combat…).

The Dark side could also remove any LS card on the board because IBAT must target the top two cards or it could use interrogation to remove one of the IBAT's from hand or just use "it's worse" to counter.  Most of these cards are sith… so this will be harder for the Navy to stop - given the current card pool.

I think this combo will be a nasty surprise for any that don't expect it - but, competative players are going to know about it - and have the information of if that combo has a chance of showing up well before hand, due to the information revealed about what's in play. It will be very hard for light side to both set up, and protect the combo.



#26 Rogue 4

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:13 AM

Kordos said:

 

Heart of the Empire

Doesn't look all that great, if you lose it you lose the game  

but you are the Empire, time is on your side - build a deck around it and lull that filthy Rebel into your trap

 

plus 3 resources right off the bat - get those powerful Sith units out early in the game 

Home One and Red Five **** this objective. Be careful. Two turns (with some help from a Y-wing/X-Wing) and it's game over man!


Millennium Falcon, Rebel Transport, Tantive IV, A-Wing x2, B-wing, E-Wing, X-wing x4, Y-wing, Z95 Headhunter x2, HWK-290, TIE Fighter x 5, TIE Advanced x1, TIE Bomber, x1, TIE Interceptor x1, TIE Defender, TIE Phantom,  Imperial Aces, Slave I, Lambda Shuttle

 


#27 Rogue 4

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:15 AM

cooleo1c said:

This is perhaps the worst card in the entire Core Set………

The Imperial Pilot changes into an enhancement, but the Rebel pilot gets…..nothing?

 


Millennium Falcon, Rebel Transport, Tantive IV, A-Wing x2, B-wing, E-Wing, X-wing x4, Y-wing, Z95 Headhunter x2, HWK-290, TIE Fighter x 5, TIE Advanced x1, TIE Bomber, x1, TIE Interceptor x1, TIE Defender, TIE Phantom,  Imperial Aces, Slave I, Lambda Shuttle

 


#28 Xenu's Paradox

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 05:31 AM

jss_hobbie said:

Kordos said:

 

 

Heart of the Empire

Doesn't look all that great, if you lose it you lose the game  

but you are the Empire, time is on your side - build a deck around it and lull that filthy Rebel into your trap

 

plus 3 resources right off the bat - get those powerful Sith units out early in the game 

 

 

Home One and Red Five **** this objective. Be careful. Two turns (with some help from a Y-wing/X-Wing) and it's game over man!

Good thing the pod comes with the two absolute best defensive cards in the game (Coruscant Defense Fleet and There Is No Escape).



#29 D.Knight Sevus

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:56 AM

agnos said:

Xenu's Paradox said:

Unless you have a way of refreshing resources. Currently, the combo is Leia + 2x IBAT + Rescue Mission + any event that removes Leia from play. However, FFG now has to be very careful about introducing LS effects that refresh resources, because such a card could conceivably reduce the complexity of the combo. For instance, an event that allows you to refresh multiple enhancements could replace Leia, Rescue Mission, and the removal event, dropping the combo down to 3 cards.

 

 

 

Fair enough.  Granted I'm not sure this 5 card combo can actually win you the game even if you are able to generate infinite resources.  Presumably you would have to be able to do 12 damage ( getting 3 unopposed bonus).  The combo so far requires pod 7 x2, pod 10 x2 and pod 16 x2.  Pod 7 gives you 8 blast icons; Pod 10 gives you 4 blast icons; Pod 16 gives you 0 blast icons.  So theoretically, you can use the combo with You're My Only Hope to draw your whole deck.  I think the combo can be disrupted with 1 Force Choke however as at some point you have to be playing cards out.  One It's Worse also negates Leia's trigger which can prevent it from going off in the mean time.  Plus the combo is so unlikely to get all the pieces at once that it's not worth playing.  But as you say, if FFG makes more ways to draw cards or refresh then it could be quite possible.

Don't forget that You're My Only Hope also forces the Dark Side player to discard a card each time it's used, so unless your opponent is running Looking for Droids and has It's Worse in hand, your combo is very difficult to disrupt. Additionally, you have the ability to clear the board with Heavy Blaster Emplacement, or if you'd rather have more blast damage since you'll win every edge battle anyways, you could use 2x The Rebel Fleet and 2x The Defense of Yavin 4 as your last 4 objectives.



#30 cooleo1c

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:12 AM

jss_hobbie said:

cooleo1c said:

 

 

 

This is perhaps the worst card in the entire Core Set………

The Imperial Pilot changes into an enhancement, but the Rebel pilot gets…..nothing?

 

Well I think he has good flavor text



#31 MarthWMaster

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:36 AM

cooleo1c said:

jss_hobbie said:

 

cooleo1c said:

 

 

 

This is perhaps the worst card in the entire Core Set………

The Imperial Pilot changes into an enhancement, but the Rebel pilot gets…..nothing?

 

 

Well I think he has good flavor text

 

That's true. With that flavor text, making him an actually useful card would have been obscenely broken.



#32 MasterJediAdam

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:54 AM

Cooleo, I think your comment has been moderated. I am now totally lost in the conversation.


Welcome to the machine!


#33 stormwolf27

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:31 PM

Toqtamish said:

Darik said:

 

After today's game where I taught my 12-year-old son how to play and saw him almost defeat the Imperial Navy with the Rebel Alliance, I'm a big fan of the X-wing Escort. Time it right and this little fighter can make them take down their own mighty Devastator. I think it could be great in combo with A New Hope because they're likely to keep their big powerful vehicle units in play, then you use the X-wing Escort's death to make them sacrifice one of the few units they still have on the table. I wonder if it would work well with  Heroic Sacrifice

 

 

 

It's not really that great with Heroic Sacrifice as your opponent will just choose to sacrifice the vehicle that is cost 4 or less that you have targeted with Heroic Sacrifice to be destroyed by the X-Wing Escort interrupt as the interrupt will resolve before Heroic Sacrifice which will then make your Heroic Sacrifice have no effect and just fizzle out and their Devastator will still be there. .

When you play heroic sacrifice to destroy the vehicle of 4 or lower, you sacrifice the escort to destroy the vehicle. They both leave play. While the escort is leaving play, you trigger its interrupt. As far as I'm aware, you can't choose to sacrifice something that is already leaving play. It's like trying to sacrifice the unit to pay for the cost of something you want to do while it is already leaving play from being destroyed, or returned to hand, etc.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#34 Toqtamish

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:26 AM

The interrupt will happen first and the card that was targeted has not left play yet. 



#35 Oneabsolute

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:38 AM

stormwolf27 said:

Darik said:

 

After today's game where I taught my 12-year-old son how to play and saw him almost defeat the Imperial Navy with the Rebel Alliance, I'm a big fan of the X-wing Escort. Time it right and this little fighter can make them take down their own mighty Devastator. I think it could be great in combo with A New Hope because they're likely to keep their big powerful vehicle units in play, then you use the X-wing Escort's death to make them sacrifice one of the few units they still have on the table. I wonder if it would work well with  Heroic Sacrifice

 

A combo of X-wing Escort and Heroic Sacrifice brought down my Devastator in one of my last games. The Navy had an AT-ST, Devastator, and Motti in play. The light side player used Heroic Sacrifice to take the AT-ST out, then X-wing Escort's ability to also take out Devastator. As long as it is at the right time that combo can work very well for the Light Side. 



#36 D.Knight Sevus

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:26 AM

Oneabsolute said:

stormwolf27 said:

 

Darik said:

 

After today's game where I taught my 12-year-old son how to play and saw him almost defeat the Imperial Navy with the Rebel Alliance, I'm a big fan of the X-wing Escort. Time it right and this little fighter can make them take down their own mighty Devastator. I think it could be great in combo with A New Hope because they're likely to keep their big powerful vehicle units in play, then you use the X-wing Escort's death to make them sacrifice one of the few units they still have on the table. I wonder if it would work well with  Heroic Sacrifice

 

 

 

A combo of X-wing Escort and Heroic Sacrifice brought down my Devastator in one of my last games. The Navy had an AT-ST, Devastator, and Motti in play. The light side player used Heroic Sacrifice to take the AT-ST out, then X-wing Escort's ability to also take out Devastator. As long as it is at the right time that combo can work very well for the Light Side. 

The problem is that you could have simply sacrificed the AT-ST. Here's what happens.

1) The LS player plays Heroic Sacrifice, sacrificing X-Wing Escort and targeting AT-ST.

2) Because the ability of X-Wing Escort is an Interrupt, it resolves before Heroic Sacrifice finishes resolving. The DS player chooses a Vehicle unit to sacrifice, like say…AT-ST.

3) Heroic Sacrifice resolves, but its target has already left the play area, so it does nothing.



#37 Oneabsolute

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:46 AM

D.Knight Sevus said:

Oneabsolute said:

 

stormwolf27 said:

 

Darik said:

 

After today's game where I taught my 12-year-old son how to play and saw him almost defeat the Imperial Navy with the Rebel Alliance, I'm a big fan of the X-wing Escort. Time it right and this little fighter can make them take down their own mighty Devastator. I think it could be great in combo with A New Hope because they're likely to keep their big powerful vehicle units in play, then you use the X-wing Escort's death to make them sacrifice one of the few units they still have on the table. I wonder if it would work well with  Heroic Sacrifice

 

 

 

A combo of X-wing Escort and Heroic Sacrifice brought down my Devastator in one of my last games. The Navy had an AT-ST, Devastator, and Motti in play. The light side player used Heroic Sacrifice to take the AT-ST out, then X-wing Escort's ability to also take out Devastator. As long as it is at the right time that combo can work very well for the Light Side. 

 

 

The problem is that you could have simply sacrificed the AT-ST. Here's what happens.

1) The LS player plays Heroic Sacrifice, sacrificing X-Wing Escort and targeting AT-ST.

2) Because the ability of X-Wing Escort is an Interrupt, it resolves before Heroic Sacrifice finishes resolving. The DS player chooses a Vehicle unit to sacrifice, like say…AT-ST.

3) Heroic Sacrifice resolves, but its target has already left the play area, so it does nothing.

We played that wrong good to know for future games. Got to make mistakes sometimes to learn. Thanks for heads up.



#38 superradjoe

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:32 PM

While "Heroic Sacrifice" isn't great, X-Wing Escort is still a wonderful target for "You're My Only Hope", "Fall Back", "Covering Fire", "A New Hope", and "Swindled".



#39 Darik

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:49 AM

Thanks for all the clarifications. I hadn't actually played those two cards together yet, but it is good to know that a rules savvy player would ruin my "combo" of "Heroic Sacrifice" and "X-wing Escort" for virtually no bonus effect. However, I hadn't thought of using it with Fall Back et al. 



#40 stormwolf27

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 06:22 PM

D.Knight Sevus said:

 The definition Paradox is using for infinite combo is a loop that can be repeated an arbitrarily large number of times in a single turn. In order to do that, you need Leia Organa, both It Binds All Things, Rescue Mission, and You're My Only Hope. With those cards you may repeat the cycle until you run out of cards in your command deck.

A great draw engine like this could be made to be is great, but you'd wanna be careful. Decking yourself in this game, unlike other games, means a loss for you the next time you have to draw.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka





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