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Creating Daemon weapons


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#41 Kbobsky

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 10:29 PM

Kiton said:

? Because a test can't be at more than + or - 60.

Well, it still lands the LoC at rolling against daemonic mastery at -60, whereas I have +60.

By the way, not trying to say it isn't so, but does anyone remember the page where it says you can only have a total modifier up to -+60. I know tables have that listed explicitly, but where's the generic case? I'm sure it's somewhere in the book, but I couldn't find it at a quick browse.

M



#42 BrotharTearer

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:48 AM

I'd suspect most people would point to page 241. It's listed in regards to combat and attacking though.

"If a situation calls for two or more bonuses or penalties, simply combine all modi?ers together and apply the total to the appropriate Characteristic. The maximum total bonus that can be applied to a test is +60. Conversely, the maximum total penalty that can be applied to a test is –60."

For the case of the Daemonic Mastery Test, the Summoning Ritual Modifiers table lists net modifiers of -60/+60 as limits, which you technically could interpret as applying as limits to the defender of the opposed mastery test as well.

Not sure if it applies to skill tests, as I've not seen anything (other than the text under attacking above) that puts a cap on modifiers for those — there probably are none.

It's possible the -60/+60 modifier limits only applies where it's mentioned, which would be like Attacking, summoning ritual modifiers, a table in creating a daemon weapon etc.

If it's an universal modifier limit on ALL tests then it has been omitted in the rules (or I haven't found it).



#43 Kiton

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 03:07 AM

The page 241 limitation states all tests, it just happens to be in the combat section.

As I've stated earlier in this thread this is also explicitly stated on page 10 of Broken Chains. Its pretty universal to the system, actually: Deathwatch states it in Final Sanction [dunno if elsewhere].

It will certainly make things difficult on the daemon, but it does mean its chances are not always at 0; particularly if the mastery test were caused by willpower damage, for example. It only needs to be lucky enough to pass the time you fail.



#44 Cryhavok

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 06:19 AM

Doesnt the deamon get a mastery test any time your willpower is lower than it's unmodified willpower? Wouldnt that put it in a constant state of trying to break free? If so, even with just a 1% chance to break free, Id give acharacter with lower willpower an hour tops before they are deamon chow.

#45 Kiton

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 07:39 AM

There's no given timetable, since it was probably assumed no one's gonna have willpower quite as low as the more common high-tens to mid-twenties willpower bunch, at least not without taking damage; at which point it would be when you drop that low.

If its a permanent affair, though, we'd probably be looking at a slow [depending on the difference] takeover rather than a sudden "switch-out"?



#46 Kbobsky

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 07:36 PM

Cryhavok said:

Doesnt the deamon get a mastery test any time your willpower is lower than it's unmodified willpower? Wouldnt that put it in a constant state of trying to break free? If so, even with just a 1% chance to break free, Id give acharacter with lower willpower an hour tops before they are deamon chow.

Well oops.

I guess it's time to put the sword on the mantelpiece and never touch it again.

M



#47 ShadowRay

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 08:44 PM

Cryhavok said:

Doesnt the deamon get a mastery test any time your willpower is lower than it's unmodified willpower? Wouldnt that put it in a constant state of trying to break free? If so, even with just a 1% chance to break free, Id give acharacter with lower willpower an hour tops before they are deamon chow.


Seeing as LoC has 81 WP, and max a PC can have is 80 (30 base +10 passions +20 oll +20 advancements), I think it should take modified deamon's WP or you'd never be able to keep LoC in check.



#48 Cryhavok

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:57 AM

ShadowRay said:

Cryhavok said:

Doesnt the deamon get a mastery test any time your willpower is lower than it's unmodified willpower? Wouldnt that put it in a constant state of trying to break free? If so, even with just a 1% chance to break free, Id give acharacter with lower willpower an hour tops before they are deamon chow.


Seeing as LoC has 81 WP, and max a PC can have is 80 (30 base +10 passions +20 oll +20 advancements), I think it should take modified deamon's WP or you'd never be able to keep LoC in check.

I dont think you are supposed to be able to keep a lord of change in check.

#49 Terraneaux

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:13 AM

Cryhavok said:

Doesnt the deamon get a mastery test any time your willpower is lower than it's unmodified willpower? Wouldnt that put it in a constant state of trying to break free? If so, even with just a 1% chance to break free, Id give acharacter with lower willpower an hour tops before they are deamon chow.

That's a really bad interpretation of the rules for demon weapons.  I mean, it makes sense if you're coming from the angle of being unfairly punitive towards your players, but the rest of us don't run our games like the unholy lovechild of the worst aspects of Gygax and Wick.  

 

In any case, technically one only has to make a test if one's willpower falls below that of the demon.  If it's already below, then you're golden.



#50 Cryhavok

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 12:38 PM

Terraneaux said:

Cryhavok said:

Doesnt the deamon get a mastery test any time your willpower is lower than it's unmodified willpower? Wouldnt that put it in a constant state of trying to break free? If so, even with just a 1% chance to break free, Id give acharacter with lower willpower an hour tops before they are deamon chow.

That's a really bad interpretation of the rules for demon weapons.  I mean, it makes sense if you're coming from the angle of being unfairly punitive towards your players, but the rest of us don't run our games like the unholy lovechild of the worst aspects of Gygax and Wick.  

 

In any case, technically one only has to make a test if one's willpower falls below that of the demon.  If it's already below, then you're golden.

You do realize that part of the GMs job is to prevent players from abusing the system to break the game? In the case of the person who did this, it did not break the game because wielding a glorified toothpick would have had an equal impact on his game. My games, and I suspect many others as well, would have thier games severly impacted by the ability to bind greater deamons willy nillly. I do not let my players break the game and if they try they will face the concequences… With will be more interesting than "rocks fall you die." If your games would not be broken by such things, or if you and your players would not get bored after realizing the only thing in the universe more powerful than them are gods, more power to you, have fun your way. In my games greater deamons are powerful and terrifying entities that would likely have aranged your death long before you even had a chance to stuff it in a sword, they are proactive forces. They are not reactive obstacles that wait for people to stuff them in swords. My players expect to be part of a proactive universe that does its own thing until they affect it. They are smart enough not to screw with things they cant handle. If you think that having a being one step removed from godhood actually able to defennd itself is unusually punitive, then I am glad we do not play together.

#51 Terraneaux

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:09 PM

Cryhavok said:

You do realize that part of the GMs job is to prevent players from abusing the system to break the game? In the case of the person who did this, it did not break the game because wielding a glorified toothpick would have had an equal impact on his game. My games, and I suspect many others as well, would have thier games severly impacted by the ability to bind greater deamons willy nillly. I do not let my players break the game and if they try they will face the concequences… With will be more interesting than "rocks fall you die." If your games would not be broken by such things, or if you and your players would not get bored after realizing the only thing in the universe more powerful than them are gods, more power to you, have fun your way. In my games greater deamons are powerful and terrifying entities that would likely have aranged your death long before you even had a chance to stuff it in a sword, they are proactive forces. They are not reactive obstacles that wait for people to stuff them in swords. My players expect to be part of a proactive universe that does its own thing until they affect it. They are smart enough not to screw with things they cant handle. If you think that having a being one step removed from godhood actually able to defennd itself is unusually punitive, then I am glad we do not play together.

 

 

I think that if your players are ‘abusing’ rules you should sit down and have a talk with them, not passive-aggressively punish them in game.  That’s pretty much the definition of petty, vindictive GMing.  Any given player is as much responsible for maintaining the game as a social activity as the GM; acting like it’s your own personal tin-pot dictatorship is a sure sign to get any sane players to bolt away from your table like a cat in an earthquake. 

 

If you really want to enforce the idea that Greater Demons are impossible for players to bind in demon weapons, than why do you suppose that rules for such a thing exist?  I think you underestimate the amount of power that PC’s in Black Crusade are supposed to wield, eventually.  Sooner or later they will become favored servants of the dark gods, valued even more than Greater Demons.  The game basically has rules for going up to Abaddon’s level.  Think about that for a bit.  It’s not supposed to be ‘PC’s helpless against any meaningful NPC.’  They’re supposed to be able to triumph over enemies like this. It’s a matter, in part, of how much they will have to sin and sacrifice to get what they most desire. 



#52 Cryhavok

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:38 PM

Terraneaux said:

Cryhavok said:

You do realize that part of the GMs job is to prevent players from abusing the system to break the game? In the case of the person who did this, it did not break the game because wielding a glorified toothpick would have had an equal impact on his game. My games, and I suspect many others as well, would have thier games severly impacted by the ability to bind greater deamons willy nillly. I do not let my players break the game and if they try they will face the concequences… With will be more interesting than "rocks fall you die." If your games would not be broken by such things, or if you and your players would not get bored after realizing the only thing in the universe more powerful than them are gods, more power to you, have fun your way. In my games greater deamons are powerful and terrifying entities that would likely have aranged your death long before you even had a chance to stuff it in a sword, they are proactive forces. They are not reactive obstacles that wait for people to stuff them in swords. My players expect to be part of a proactive universe that does its own thing until they affect it. They are smart enough not to screw with things they cant handle. If you think that having a being one step removed from godhood actually able to defennd itself is unusually punitive, then I am glad we do not play together.

 

 

I think that if your players are ‘abusing’ rules you should sit down and have a talk with them, not passive-aggressively punish them in game.  That’s pretty much the definition of petty, vindictive GMing.  Any given player is as much responsible for maintaining the game as a social activity as the GM; acting like it’s your own personal tin-pot dictatorship is a sure sign to get any sane players to bolt away from your table like a cat in an earthquake. 

 

If you really want to enforce the idea that Greater Demons are impossible for players to bind in demon weapons, than why do you suppose that rules for such a thing exist?  I think you underestimate the amount of power that PC’s in Black Crusade are supposed to wield, eventually.  Sooner or later they will become favored servants of the dark gods, valued even more than Greater Demons.  The game basically has rules for going up to Abaddon’s level.  Think about that for a bit.  It’s not supposed to be ‘PC’s helpless against any meaningful NPC.’  They’re supposed to be able to triumph over enemies like this. It’s a matter, in part, of how much they will have to sin and sacrifice to get what they most desire. 

First, you need to stop making assumptions about others. Without specific context you are litterally not qualified to pass judgement on me, my players or how we play. Get over yourself. Other than saying that, Im ignoring your first paragraph.

As to your second: you are again making assumptions. I did not say it would be impossible. I gave examples of the consequences of trying. If the players can face them and win, then the blood, sweat, and scars say they can. The post of mind that you quoted starting this was infact talking about the consequences of someone succeeding, and how it would be alot like holding on to the tigers tail. I would never enjoy the happy-go-lucky version of the grimdark, where no one has to face the consequenses of what they do. Yeah players might have the chance to be the badasses of the grimdark, but unless they can actually take all comers, and out wit the gods themselves they will never be at the top. And no, black crusade does not (yet) take the players to the level oc power Abbadon enjoys. The entirety of the screaming vortex doesn't even contain a fracton of the forces at his command. Maybe in a future supplament, one where the players can command all the forces of chaos and bear all 4 marks of chaos at the same time the game will, but right now, that idea is laughable. Have you never heard the phrase, "there is always bigger fish." And as long as the players are still mortal, they will not be nearly as valuable as you seem to think, not in any version of the grimdark that I have ever heard of, chaos is kind of like that. Maybe when they have rules for becoming a deamon prince. But then I think it is clear that you and I play in very different versions of the grimdark, and we wont reconcile this between us, so I think Im just going to ignore you from now on and get back to watching my players overcome things you would apparently cry about before running away.


#53 Terraneaux

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:00 PM

Cryhavok said:

First, you need to stop making assumptions about others. Without specific context you are litterally not qualified to pass judgement on me, my players or how we play. Get over yourself. Other than saying that, Im ignoring your first paragraph.

 

As to your second: you are again making assumptions. I did not say it would be impossible. I gave examples of the consequences of trying. If the players can face them and win, then the blood, sweat, and scars say they can. The post of mind that you quoted starting this was infact talking about the consequences of someone succeeding, and how it would be alot like holding on to the tigers tail. I would never enjoy the happy-go-lucky version of the grimdark, where no one has to face the consequenses of what they do. Yeah players might have the chance to be the badasses of the grimdark, but unless they can actually take all comers, and out wit the gods themselves they will never be at the top. And no, black crusade does not (yet) take the players to the level oc power Abbadon enjoys. The entirety of the screaming vortex doesn't even contain a fracton of the forces at his command. Maybe in a future supplament, one where the players can command all the forces of chaos and bear all 4 marks of chaos at the same time the game will, but right now, that idea is laughable. Have you never heard the phrase, "there is always bigger fish." And as long as the players are still mortal, they will not be nearly as valuable as you seem to think, not in any version of the grimdark that I have ever heard of, chaos is kind of like that. Maybe when they have rules for becoming a deamon prince. But then I think it is clear that you and I play in very different versions of the grimdark, and we wont reconcile this between us, so I think Im just going to ignore you from now on and get back to watching my players overcome things you would apparently cry about before running away.

 

You did say it should be impossible.  You said that anyone who had a willpower less than the demon's unmodified willpower would have to continuously make demonic mastery tests, thus making the mastery of a demon weapon containing a greater demon of Tzeentch entirely untenable.  Or, alternatively, you failed to think through what you said and didn't realize that that would make the control of a demon weapon containing a greater demon of Tzeentch basically impossible.  Both of these things are bad.  I'd take your observances with a lot less grievance than if you didn't have the tendency to come into threads and tell people they were having badwrongfun in their game at their own table.  I, myself, certainly don't pull punches at the gaming table - just ask my players about their dead characters.  But Black Crusade is supposed to be high risk, high reward.  You certainly seem to be a fan of the former but seem to blanch at the latter, presumably because of a penchant for adversarial-style GMing.

 

As for your other points, it's literally possible, by the rules, to gain infamy points of up to 150, which is Abaddon's level.  The rules explain what it takes to ascend to the status of a demon prince (though they obviously don't give rules for what happens afterwards).  



#54 Kiton

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 04:16 AM

Perhaps it should be impossible. There is such a thing as a trap, or "BAD IDEA". For example, ramming your jetbike into a Land Raider at high speed *could* give him big penalties to hit you on the way there with those sponson lascannons, but your solution was certainly less 'healthy' than just trying to not get hit.

Likewise, while technically possible, its not necessarily nonsensical for an embodiment of Willpower, Planning and Fate to be a "BAD IDEA" to bind into an object capable of curdling your mind and soul from in there behind the seals. I wouldn't recommend chaining your plasma cannon to your arms so it can't be dropped or disarmed if you're a guardsman either.

So while its perfectly reasonable for a guy with 50 willpower to bind a massive, angry Juggernaut of Khorne into your favorite weapon, the greatest Sorcerers of Tzeench would probably have the presence of mind to realize that they'd be pissing off something that's already achieved what they aspire to become through their same methods…

And as for those that don't… well… you know what they say about taking on more than you can handle…



#55 BrotharTearer

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 07:14 PM

To be fair, I really doubt there's something happening when you've got lower WP than the daemon contained within the daemon weapon. Would be silly if you'd have to test daemonic mastery all the time ad nauseum, and it would make all the published daemon weapons with high WP (pandemonium staff, bloodfeeder, firestorm blade, forgewhip, great axe of khorne, soulfire lance) kinda impractical to use. Especially the khorne ones as brutes rarely have tzeentchian level of WP.

Instead of forcing a daemonic mastery test when your WP goes under the daemon's WP (as it's always lower), any time you take WP damage, and therefore lowering your WP more, that forces a daemonic mastery test. It's kinda the same principle, as it would only happen if your WP somehow went below the daemon's anyway. While previously your WP had to go below the daemon's, now it will force a daemonic mastery test every time the WP goes lower (both permanent and temporary damage).

Suck on that logic compromise.



#56 Kiton

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:40 PM

Well, look at the options. The average human has roughly 35 WP. The average CSM starts at 40. Just in the main book, this gives us the following options for someone who's never purchased an upgrade:

Nether Swarm [21], Bloodletter [34], Brazen Myrmidon [20], Cackling Abomination [28], Daemonettes [28], Pink Horrors [32], Juggernauts [marine only at 40], Plaguebearers [35], Screamers [marine only at 40]. All of the weapons given as examples save the Daemon-Prince [75] are compatible as well.

Even a Great Unclean One could be mastered by one with at least 70WP; a rarity, but then so should having a greater daemon weapon too. That way, someone with less willpower by default gets completely puppetted or subsumed within days or hours [the whole 'posessing unworthy wielders' schtick], but as it turns out most daemons can actually be tamed by most STARTING characters already.



#57 Terraneaux

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:09 AM

Kiton said:

Even a Great Unclean One could be mastered by one with at least 70WP; a rarity, but then so should having a greater daemon weapon too. That way, someone with less willpower by default gets completely puppetted or subsumed within days or hours [the whole 'posessing unworthy wielders' schtick], but as it turns out most daemons can actually be tamed by most STARTING characters already.

 

The hard part of getting a Greater Demon weapon is that the ritual to summon one is very difficult.  It's stil not very easy.






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