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Can you play a Jedi


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#21 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:58 PM

Begun, the Jedi PC Wars have.


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#22 WildKnight

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 01:44 PM

KommissarK said:

TiLT said:

That said, that level of ability is indeed covered in EotE and is not "high level" at all. So I'm not really seeing the issue here.

I'm not saying that it is.  I'm saying that I hope that when they put out the book on Jedi and the Force, that's not what they become.  This was an extension of the conversation about how the books are being put out earlier in the thread.



#23 WildKnight

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 01:46 PM

Donovan Morningfire said:

 

But whether you like it or not, the Star Wars canon (something FFG has to at least keep in mind) constantly shows that Jedi (especially the trained variety who've made Knighthood) are more powerful than the non-Force-using community. 

I don't agree with you, at all.  Vader/Anakin is, certainly, as well as Yoda, Made, and Sidious/Palpatine…  but all of those people are particularly powerful examples of force users.  Obi-Wan, by contrast, has a neat bag of tricks, but doesn't appear to be significantly more powerful than Jango Fett.

 



#24 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:02 PM

Doc, the Weasel said:

Begun, the Jedi PC Wars have.

Knock yourselves out.  I've said my piece, and far as I'm concerned the whole debate can go the way of both Death Stars, especially as it has nothing to do with the original question.


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#25 William Starbrand

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:04 PM

I think this should end the Jedi "question/problem". During a scene on Tatooine at Skywalker's home, Anakin says nothing can kill a Jedi, and Qui-Gon Jin replies I wish that were so. This proves that Jedi's being unstoppable are just hype, and even a powerful Jedi like Qui-Gon can see that a jedi is not an all powerful being.

A true jedi has only the force and a lightsaber to protect him, and though those skills can be powerful, they do not give anything more than an unexpected edge in combat. The mandalorians who went to war with the republic fought jedi with nothing more than armor, guns and their skills.

So using the Han Solo example put out there before….

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." (HYPE)

"Look, good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living? That's something else."(HYPE)

"Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."(HYPE)

Though Han comes around by the end of RotJ to believe in Luke's skills, he still stated at the rescue from Jabba's Palace,

 Luke:  There's nothing to see. I used to live here, you know.
Han Solo:  You're gonna die here, you know. Convenient.

But we seem to be missing the biggest part of this whole silly argument, the game seems to be taking place during the time period of Episode 3 to Episode 6, where the Empire is at the height of it's power and the Rebellion is just starting to be able to fight back and ther are no JEDI because the have been hunted to the point of extinction.



#26 HappyDaze

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:46 PM

William Starbrand said:

But we seem to be missing the biggest part of this whole silly argument, the game seems to be taking place during the time period of Episode 3 to Episode 6, where the Empire is at the height of it's power and the Rebellion is just starting to be able to fight back and ther are no JEDI because the have been hunted to the point of extinction.

Quite a few of the expanded works show numerous exceptions - Jedi remnants (some quite powerful) that hid out in the fringes of the Empire. That's the exact kind of setting that this game gives to us, yet these possibilities have been pushed aside. It's not because these characters are inappropriate to the setting, it's because FFG is not yet comfortable enough to put out their full-on Jedi force rules. Hence their 'not yet' answer to the question. It's also an answer that assures that they can pump out another core rulebook since many SW fans would like to see Jedi in the game.


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#27 That Blasted Samophlange

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 01:08 AM

Here's the issue as I see it:  Jedi are powerful because the media we have of Jedi shows them as such.   They can do things that a 'normal' can't.  Now, in the beta we had access to the force sensitive exile, and it provided some really nice advantages to those who had access to the force but didn't necessarily have the proper training… training.. that could be the key word right there.  After all, Yoda did say:   "Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor"

The key is training.  Jedi as I see it are not any more powerful than any other character of equal skill level.   The thing is, Jedi train their ENTIRE life, starting from a very young age.  The Jedi we see as adults have, in game terms, accumulated a lot of xp and spent it to build up their skills and talents.  

An average Jedi could very well have 500 xp invested into their appropriate talent tree when it comes out.   This would make them very good at what they do.  Much  like a blaster for  hire type character or a combat pilot will be good at what they do. 

The force, as we have seen in the beta does have a number of abilites that upgrade the dice in your pool, or increase the difficulty.  This mimics what we've seen in the movies, with Luke firing the proton torpedoes that destroyed the DEATH STAR, and Anakin's ability to podrace.  Even the ability to deflect shots with a lightsaber can be done (deflect, not redirect) - and this is with what is in the beta, and most likely in the CORE book.

Now, I hope, when the Force and Destiny book comes out, it details how to run a Jedi or other powerful force user campaign, and can blend seemlessly into an existing campaign.  The latter is the key, as to make Jedi not overshadow the other players, they have a similar experience point total but their points will be focused heavily on the force and Jedi related talent trees.   

So, while a Jedi character could be very focused on make a lightsaber wielding, bounty hunter defeating, force using machine, they are limitied.  A colonist/doctor with the same 500 experience is going to be extremely good at what THEY do.  From what I've seen and read of Jedi they are jack of all trades t ype characters.  They can do a number of things competently, often aided by the force.  But a focused character, such as the doctor example, should always be better.   Now if a Jedi then spent another 500 xp to get the same talents/skills as the doctor, and the doctor focused his next 500 at say, being a bounty hunter, then the jedi/doctor character should be better at medical stuff with the force aiding him, than the doctor/bounty hunter. 

The point I'm trying to make is that a Jedi character CAN AND WILL, if aided by their force abilites, be better than anyone else, IF they have the same training.  So a Fighter Pilot who spends 100 xp on abilites, and a Jedi who also spend 100 xp the same abilites, the Jedi will be better - the catch is that a Jedi would have to have spend experience on his force talent trees, as well as any Jedi talent trees.   The jedi pilot has to divide experience between being a pilot and a Jedi - the offset, is if they spend experience on the right force talents, it will make them a better pilot, but not so much as to overshadow the dedicated pilot.  This is how it should be.

 

The Force and Destiny book, Age of Rebellion, and Edge of the Empire should seemlessly blend together but there will have to be some stipulations.  A full fledged Jedi, will have earned and spent considerably more expereince than a new character in Edge of the Empire (and possibly Age of Rebellion).  This woudl represent their years of training.  Ideally, full Jedi should be used in a more Mentor role, such as that mimicing a master and padawan.  I really hope that Force and Destiny goes this route - That of a Jedi Knight in hiding teaching the player characters they ways of the Jedi - this makes them they same power level, as new characters with the same starting experience, as characters from the other core books.  However, if you want to be full fledged Jedi running from the Empire, you make your characters with more experience.  This offers two ways to play the game, and an easy way with which to add the newest core book in to an existing campaign.

 

To sum up, Jedi ARE  more powerful than their non-force using compatriots, BUT it is because of their training which, in game terms, they have paid for by having to spend more experience.   By adjusting the experience a starting Jedi character gets, they become anything from a new Padawan, to a Jedi that has been running from the Empire since Order 66.  A Jedi should be better than anyone else when aided by the force, but ONLY if they have the same training.  The force should augment existing skills and training, not be a jack of all trades replacement for this training.    

 

 

 

 

 


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#28 aramis

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 10:49 AM

TiLT said:

I. J. Thompson said:

 

Hats off to FFG for taking this approach, in my opinion. :)

 

 

Indeed! This way of making the game solves the problem no other Star Wars RPG has solved before: How to balance Jedi against other types of characters. The answer FFG came up with "you don't". 

That also was WEG's answer. 



#29 Voice

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 04:48 PM

That Blasted Samophlange has it.

A 100XP Jedi *isn't* more powerful than a 100XP non-Jedi.  You just don't see that 100XP Jedi outside of the temple where they're still training, except in the rarest of circumstances.

The idea that Jedi are somehow *innately* more powerful than equally well trained non-Jedi because we mostly see well-trained Jedi, is the same logic that would claim that a Bounty Hunter is more powerful than an equally well trained non-Bounty-Hunter because we watch Jango beat up on Obi-Wan.  (Remember, Jango *won* that encounter on Kamino!)

A Jedi Knight isn't a 100XP starter character.  A Jedi Padawan being sent out into the galaxy at large (still along side his assigned Knight) isn't a 100XP starter character.  The closest we see to a 100XP Jedi is probably the padawan who gets gunned down in sight of Bail Organa when the 501st were storming the Jedi Temple.



#30 LethalDose

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:14 AM

<facepalm>

Some things never change.  Using EotE to create Jedi characters would be like using something like stock DnD 3.5 to run a historically accurate 16th century court intrigue campaign (I've been watching 'The Tudors' on Netflix):  Despite some thematic similarities, it's a very poor fit and not what the system was designed to do.

</facepalm>

The mechanical FR2 cap on PCs in the RAW is intended, and helps to maintain the flavor of the campaign.  Even though some NPCs exceed this value and the book provided some benchmarks for FRs 1-7, it's more for the GM's information than the player's.

This isn't saying you can't.  If you simply have to have Jedi, then houserule something.  I personally like assigning some point cost and adding some obligation cost (A player can increase FR from 2 to 3, gain 20 obligation [Hunted by the Inquisition] and spend 30 points).  You just have to realize that the game isn't intended to support that character type by design.

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#31 That Blasted Samophlange

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:00 PM

I think your facepalm is a little off the mark.   The discussion, at least put forth by me, is more about HOW to incorporate Jedi into the same system as the characters from EotE.  It has been stated that the dice are to be used by all three games - Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion, AND Force and Destiny.  The fact that we have force powers already shows that the system is designed to do that very thing.  Now, we can agree that as the setting is presented, there are NO Jedi.  I'm cool with this.  But people want to convert characters over, and play Jedi. 

The player base will find a way to do this.

What we know is that some random fringer who finds out they have a connection to the force can do some pretty cool things - BUT.. they are limited by how powerful they can get without a teacher as there are no Jedi.   The Jedi order will most likely be represented by a class - offering a lightsaber skill, and various specialties - possibly, the Guardian, Consular and Sentinal.  These specialties, whatever they may be, will provide a character the ability to increase one's force rating.  Not to mention give a whole bunch of talents for deflecting blaster bolts, jumping, etc, etc.  Everything a Jedi wants to do. 

What I am putting forth is that a Jedi character, if given the same amount of experience as starting Edge of the Empire character, does not represent the examples we see in the media, but more likely a neophyte padawan who has just been apprenticed to a Jedi Knight.  To accurately represent Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and various Jedi at the height of their power, you have to give them more experience.  Just like Boba Fett isn't going to be some super bounty hunter when he starts out.  

 

LethalDose, I think you're wrong when it comes to they system not being able to handle Jedi - the fact is we haven't seen a talent tree for a Jedi Class, so we don't know how they will be represented.  But since the games are supposed to be primarily solo, but able to link together, the should be as compatible as possible.  The easiest and in my opinion, best way is to make a full on Jedi Knight, a character with more experience.  Possibly around 500 or more. 


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#32 Droma

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:01 PM

@samophange


More likely a starting jedi would still have 100xp but character creation would simply give them X number of ranks in skills and talents by default plus additional force dice.

Then there would probably be some sort of excerpt saying jedi characters are roughly equal to characters with X number of experience.



#33 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:21 AM

That Blasted Samophlange said:

What I am putting forth is that a Jedi character, if given the same amount of experience as starting Edge of the Empire character, does not represent the examples we see in the media, but more likely a neophyte padawan who has just been apprenticed to a Jedi Knight.  To accurately represent Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and various Jedi at the height of their power, you have to give them more experience.  Just like Boba Fett isn't going to be some super bounty hunter when he starts out.  

This is probably the smartest thing that's been said about the whole issue in this entire thread.

Mechanically, Force-users are going to be powerful than a non-Force-user, but that doesn't mean that a "starting tier" Force-user PC has to be drastically more powerful than a "starting tier" muggle PC.

I've been working on a collection of additional Force Specializations, one of which includes a Jedi Initiate*, and it's not inherently any more powerful than being a F/S Exile would be, though a bit more combat-focused than the Force Shaman or Dark Side Devotee that I'm developing, it doesn';t turn the PC into a superhuman warrior… without spending a fairly hefty chunk of Experience.  Much like the way Force Powers in this game work; unless you devote a hefty portion of XP (at least 25 for Move to make a truly functional attack power, not counting any Range Upgrades) you're not going to be that much more badass than a bounty hunter or hired gun or smuggler in a fight.  But one you've sunk a few hundred XP into said specialization and Force Powers, yeah that Force-user is going to be pretty powerful.  But guess what?  They've paid the XP costs to be that powerful, the same XP that their non-Force-using buddies have been spending on boosting Skills and exploring other Specializations.

I did a few "high level" stress tests using PCs that had 200, 300, 400, and 500 bonus XP on top of their usual starting allotments; said bonus XP was treated as Adventure XP in terms of what you could spend it on.  Only at the 400 XP mark did the Jedi PC (using an earlier draft of my Jedi spec) really start to outshine the other PCs in terms of combat, but he was still pretty focused on being a Jedi where the other PCs had pretty much filled out their initial Specializations and had branched out into others, giving them more options.  In a way, this very well matches up to how WEG intended to handle Force-users; yes it was costly to play one, but you traded versatility for power, which at the lower end of the spectrum worked; the problem only came when people had been playing the same characters once a week for months on end when the system was designed with the idea that you'd only play the one character for a few months (one major story-arc) and then set them aside for new characters.  Hopefully FFG can avoid the same problem, and from what my stress-tests showed, they just might be able to pull it off this time.

*So I like having an option to be a Jedi in my Star Wars games.  Sue me.


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#34 Yepesnopes

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:19 AM

That Blasted Samophlange said:

What I am putting forth is that a Jedi character, if given the same amount of experience as starting Edge of the Empire character, does not represent the examples we see in the media, but more likely a neophyte padawan who has just been apprenticed to a Jedi Knight.  To accurately represent Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and various Jedi at the height of their power, you have to give them more experience.  Just like Boba Fett isn't going to be some super bounty hunter when he starts out.  

I totally agree.

When playing warhammer 3 we had a similar problem, rename Jedi -> High Elf mage. The way to tackle it was just in game representing the initial learning periode where the High Elf mage is just a mere apprentice.

Similarly, with the initial SW book, you can play indeed a Jedi, just in its very early learning process.

 

Cheers,

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#35 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:49 AM

Yepesnopes said:

I totally agree.

When playing warhammer 3 we had a similar problem, rename Jedi -> High Elf mage. The way to tackle it was just in game representing the initial learning periode where the High Elf mage is just a mere apprentice.

Similarly, with the initial SW book, you can play indeed a Jedi, just in its very early learning process.

Cheers,

Yepes

Actually, in WFRP 2nd edition, an Elf Wizard character was still limited to only a single color of magic, but when they reached the fourth and final Wizard career (I think it was called Master Wizard), which for a Human was the pinnacle of spellcasting ability, the Elf would be considered to have finished the equivalent of their Associates Degree and would head off to Ulthaun to start learning the true secrets of magic; this pretty much mean the Elf Wizard's time as a PC was pretty much over.

As I've said to those that whined about how "Jedi weren't playable characters" in EotE (aside from that kinda being the point), there are rules for playing what amounts to an untrained neophyte; simply take the F/S Exile, pester your GM to let you take ranks in Lightsaber as a non-career skill, and then do your level best to actually get a lightsaber.  The best you can hope for currently under the official rules is Padawan-level of ability, which is a Force Rating of 2.

The whole Jedi training regimen that would produce action-capable Padawans is pretty much defunct by the Rebellion Era.  There might (heavy on the might, depending on how close your GM sticks to film canon over the EU) be a rare few Knights and Masters out there willing (the tricky part right there) to train someone in the Jedi arts, but given how much of a negative image the Empire has given the Jedi Knights since the events of the Clone Wars (even painting them as responsible for the three year war as a cover for some grand power-play), said Knight/Master would really have to consider taking on an apprentice to be worth the extensive risk, even if they're making like Obi-Wan and chilling in some isolated in some backwater pocket of the galaxy..


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#36 Demonic Devill

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:58 PM

I will point out that this is my own opinion

I kind of like the fact that EotE doesn't have a full foundation of skills, talents and stats to make full Jedi and that there are only low end Force Sensatives I mean we're supposed to experience the Star Wars Universe mainly between episodes 4 and 5 when the empire still has a grip of the universe and there aren't any Jedi or Force Sensitives (except Yoda, Obi Wan, Vader, Luke, Leia and the Emporor) making it all dark and gritty.

If you think about it after the Clone Wars and the fall of the Jedi the Emporor ordered all and any Force Sensitive be killed.

What Im trying to say is that I feel having a full Force using PC Jedi will take away from the dark grittiness players are suppose to feel.



#37 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:25 PM

The portion of this discussion that is being left out, to me is the most important… The other traditions that did not get "obliterated"… The Fallenassi, Luka Sene (since the Miraluka were mostly just "confined to planet" not destroyed), The Aing-Tii Monks and I believe the Mutakai were all still functioning during the Dark Times and Rebellion Era. So if anything… They should have provided a bit more "material" for force use, just not Jedi… After all, it is important to note that the Fallenassi were powerful enough force users to conceal there entire planet at times! I think that indicates that they could train a "capable" force user. In my opinion, one of the things I like the most about the Rebellion Era is that force users generally HAD to be trained from some other source. The fact that FFG have not even indicated the existance of any other tradition is in itself a bit odd to me. It seems to strip a lot of the "color" that the Force had taken on.

I am a bit saddened that this system passed up so much of the whole "Force" thing… after all that IS what makes Star Wars unique… Not "laser swords" or "ray guns"… It's the Force… And during the Rebellion Era, force users were still getting trained… Just not as Jedi…



#38 Kallabecca

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:42 PM

LucianZenlav said:

The portion of this discussion that is being left out, to me is the most important… The other traditions that did not get "obliterated"… The Fallenassi, Luka Sene (since the Miraluka were mostly just "confined to planet" not destroyed), The Aing-Tii Monks and I believe the Mutakai were all still functioning during the Dark Times and Rebellion Era. So if anything… They should have provided a bit more "material" for force use, just not Jedi… After all, it is important to note that the Fallenassi were powerful enough force users to conceal there entire planet at times! I think that indicates that they could train a "capable" force user. In my opinion, one of the things I like the most about the Rebellion Era is that force users generally HAD to be trained from some other source. The fact that FFG have not even indicated the existance of any other tradition is in itself a bit odd to me. It seems to strip a lot of the "color" that the Force had taken on.

I am a bit saddened that this system passed up so much of the whole "Force" thing… after all that IS what makes Star Wars unique… Not "laser swords" or "ray guns"… It's the Force… And during the Rebellion Era, force users were still getting trained… Just not as Jedi…

That all depends on how much FFG wants to deal with writing up all the stuff that has happened based on the EU as opposed to just the Canon material.



#39 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:28 PM

Which… Since Lucas Arts has the final say on anything… makes any product with the "Lucas Arts" label cannon… The other RPG's delt with other traditions… I do not subscribe to the movie vs EVERYTHING ELSE cannon debate… Is it licensed? Yes? Then it is legit cannon material… And frankly I find that debate a bit tired… So much of the BEST Star Wars material was NOT in the movies… Galen Marek "Starkiller" for example… Hands down one of Lucas Arts best character creations… Or the story line for the original Knights of the Old Republic… Much better in terms of a compelling story then the original movie… Which was great… but not because of the story… (Yes, All my own personal opinion)

But really… He (King George) has been such an "iron fist" about licensed material recently that… It is hard to say that products outside the movies are not cannon… From what I understand, it was his personal holding up of some of the later WotC books that caused problems for WotC and led to the end of the partnership… I bring that up because A LOT of material on force traditions outside the Jedi/Sith block were contained in those books… and it sounds like he at least looked them over… and said yes…

But stories aside… The Star Wars universe is in part such an amazing creation because it came to extend so far past the movies… To try and contain it there is to do its very creation a diservice… Even these RPG books sit outside "film only" cannon… So the irony gets thicker…

Explain to me why a licensed product from Lucas Arts is not cannon? I am confused… Did all the rest of us suddenly get creative control of the Star Wars franchise? If George OK's it, I have to believe that in the Star Wars universe… That is the word of God!



#40 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:50 PM

I guess what I am in favor of is a company giving us as much "hard" data (we know the story… why waste pages) and let the players and GM's decide how far into the various "portions" of cannon they wish to get. I do really feel that FFG dropped the ball on The Force and Armor… Both too large of a portion of EVERY aspect of what attracts people to this particular "fantasy" setting, to have been given the cursory treatment thus far shown. Both of those topics are often treated as "after-thoughts" by people taking up the "Star Wars" banner… And later been sorry for doing such…

Remember all the screaming when Star Wars Galaxies came out about no Jedi… You think that will change with pen and paper?! As a company interested in profit… I would NOT bank on that idea… History has already shown it to be a poor choice…

Again mostly opinion (except the Star Wars Galaxies thing… as a playtester… That is all I heard… everyday…)

So… FFG… Fill my RPG books with solid RPG data… I can watch movies… get comics… encyclopedias… wookiepedia… etc. all to find out back story and setting filler stuff… Your job really should be lots and lots of hard numbered gaming data… First and foremost…






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