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#21 DigitalRedneck

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 05:47 PM

Cryhavok said:

DigitalRedneck said:

Zappiel said:

 

come on!� use yer heads, people!� this isn't about min/maxing yer way to the uberestest of uberest goon weapons!!� If you want to powerfist yer way thru everything, play as a dreadnought�.ooh, or better yet, be a Titan!� that oughta get ya off!� Cause yer right, power fist be dumb unless i can make it even more powerful�.sheesh!

As for table top gaming, the models would have a power fist (alone) in one hand�.the only exception is a pair of master-crafted powerfists with bolters built into them; it's unique and belongs to te emaster of macragge�..and that's it�..so sorry�.

now, having said all that, if you wanna do what you wanna do in your game, go for it!� have fun with it!� but it ain't in the spirit of the 40k setting, so canon-monkeys like me won't approve of it 'officially'�.

 

 

I have already quoted the rules straight from Deathwatch core that says you can hold things with the fist. Can't use ranged weapons and fine manipulation tasks are at a -20 penalty. Look on p155. So why am I getting **** from "cannon monkeys" exactly?

You know I recently looked at the description of a powerfist in the DW core book, and it makes no mention of any strength enhancing gear in the fist itself. It talks about how the enhanced powerfield on it is so strong the weapon underneath is irrelevant. This leads me to believe that it is less of a strength enhancing fist and more like a fist shaped lightsaber, with the destructive effect of the field enhancing the effects of your strength on a blow. This leads me to continue believing that a powerfist with its field deactived does not enhance strength bonus to damage.

Yeah. I could totally see that. It does indeed seem as tho the st bonus has more to do with the energy field than any actual grasping or lifting abilities  The fist does great damage as is. And I'd prob be a **** and rule that using a weapon in that fist would be at the -20 and no st bonus from the fist. It's not real fine manipulation when your swinging a chainsword but I'd say that Melee weapons would still require enough dex that the bulk of the fist would be in the way. But I'd let a marine open the door to a rhino with that hand and not inadvertently damage the rhino tho. And I'd also let a marine carry a wounded Comrad to safety with it. 



#22 Zappiel

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:32 PM

cryhavoc nailed it.  And i agree with the digitalredneck (is there such a thing? ;)  ) - carrying things and opening things, when powered down, ought not to be a problem (so long as a freakishly huge huge gauntlet doesn't introduce it's own inherent problems….)



#23 Cryhavok

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:56 PM

Zappiel said:

cryhavoc nailed it.  And i agree with the digitalredneck (is there such a thing? ;)  ) - carrying things and opening things, when powered down, ought not to be a problem (so long as a freakishly huge huge gauntlet doesn't introduce it's own inherent problems….)

Agreed.

#24 Kasatka

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 03:00 AM

The -20 to fine manipulation should be enough indication about how clumsy the glove is - astartes already suffer -10 while in power armour, so i read this -20 as a stacking modifier, for a -30 total. So unless your marine is exceptionally Agile (talking 60/70+) youll be failing a fair few manipulation rolls and your GM should be narratively describing the clumsy and heavy powerfist causing issues.


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#25 Nikollo

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 08:29 AM

The power fist is so large and heavy, not just because of the power-field generators built into it, but because of all the heavy-duty hydraulics used to strangthen the crushing power of the fingers. If you were to take those out, all you would have is power-fielded fingers, which are not as effective as the alternative (lightning claws). The hrydraulics are where the strength bonus actually comes from, as even with a strong power-field weakening tank armor, it's still tank armor. One should be able to use the additional unnatural strength modifier without the power field, but only when one is using the fingers to crush something or tear it apart. The strength bonus should not apply to overall arm use.

Ex 1: There is a small gap in a ruined bulkhead. You can tell that there are flammable materials leaking over everything on the other side, but it's your only feasible route of escape. The Techmarine is unconscious, and there's not enough time for the Apothecary to revive him, so you can't make use of his servo-arm. The only option is your power fist. However, activating its powerfield greatly increases the risk of setting off the flammable material. Logically you should be able to tear and twist the edges of the gap with the hydraulic might of your powerfist without needing to resort to using the power-field (though it would certainly expedite the widening of the hole).

Ex 2: Your Battle-Brother is pinned to the ground by a large peice of debris. Your power fist may help break it into more manageable chunks, but cannot add its additional strength multiplier to lifting said chunks, and due to its prodigeous weight, should actually work against you, adding a negative madifier to the Strength test. (This should not apply to those using a power fist with Terminator Armor, as the Tactical Dreadnought harness should not only provide a stable platform for the lift, but the rerebrace for the arm with the powerfist would reasonably include additional hydraulics to further facilitate the use of the weapon. Come on, it's Terminator Armor).

As for using another melee weapon in the same hand as a power fist, well, let's look back at an example from the novels:

In the second Night Lords novel, Blood Reaver, the Red Corsairs stormed the Fortress Monastery of the Marines Errant. When they breached the reliquary, Huron Blackheart grabbed one of the two-handed relic power-mauls in his power claw, and stove in the head of one of the reliquary guardians. The power-field for his claw was inactive, and so was the powerfield for the relic maul.

One could use a melee weapon in the power fist-hand, but it would, by necessity, need a long haft that a power fist would be able to firmly grasp (meaning no swords, unless the grip is for two hands). One could not make use of the power fist's power field while doing this or they would destroy the weapon, and they would not be able to make use of any of the special qualities of the weapon being wielded (an Eviscerator wielded in such a manner would be little more than a barbed club). Additional negative modifiers would have be applied, as this set-up would go beyond unwieldy.

This is possible, but would be incredibly stupid to use outside of emergencies, or, in the case of Huron, humiliating the enemy with the inevitability of your victory.



#26 Cryhavok

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:17 PM

Nikollo said:

The power fist is so large and heavy, not just because of the power-field generators built into it, but because of all the heavy-duty hydraulics used to strangthen the crushing power of the fingers. If you were to take those out, all you would have is power-fielded fingers, which are not as effective as the alternative (lightning claws). The hrydraulics are where the strength bonus actually comes from, as even with a strong power-field weakening tank armor, it's still tank armor. One should be able to use the additional unnatural strength modifier without the power field, but only when one is using the fingers to crush something or tear it apart. The strength bonus should not apply to overall arm use.

Ex 1: There is a small gap in a ruined bulkhead. You can tell that there are flammable materials leaking over everything on the other side, but it's your only feasible route of escape. The Techmarine is unconscious, and there's not enough time for the Apothecary to revive him, so you can't make use of his servo-arm. The only option is your power fist. However, activating its powerfield greatly increases the risk of setting off the flammable material. Logically you should be able to tear and twist the edges of the gap with the hydraulic might of your powerfist without needing to resort to using the power-field (though it would certainly expedite the widening of the hole).

Ex 2: Your Battle-Brother is pinned to the ground by a large peice of debris. Your power fist may help break it into more manageable chunks, but cannot add its additional strength multiplier to lifting said chunks, and due to its prodigeous weight, should actually work against you, adding a negative madifier to the Strength test. (This should not apply to those using a power fist with Terminator Armor, as the Tactical Dreadnought harness should not only provide a stable platform for the lift, but the rerebrace for the arm with the powerfist would reasonably include additional hydraulics to further facilitate the use of the weapon. Come on, it's Terminator Armor).

As for using another melee weapon in the same hand as a power fist, well, let's look back at an example from the novels:

In the second Night Lords novel, Blood Reaver, the Red Corsairs stormed the Fortress Monastery of the Marines Errant. When they breached the reliquary, Huron Blackheart grabbed one of the two-handed relic power-mauls in his power claw, and stove in the head of one of the reliquary guardians. The power-field for his claw was inactive, and so was the powerfield for the relic maul.

One could use a melee weapon in the power fist-hand, but it would, by necessity, need a long haft that a power fist would be able to firmly grasp (meaning no swords, unless the grip is for two hands). One could not make use of the power fist's power field while doing this or they would destroy the weapon, and they would not be able to make use of any of the special qualities of the weapon being wielded (an Eviscerator wielded in such a manner would be little more than a barbed club). Additional negative modifiers would have be applied, as this set-up would go beyond unwieldy.

This is possible, but would be incredibly stupid to use outside of emergencies, or, in the case of Huron, humiliating the enemy with the inevitability of your victory.

You are wrong. The core book says so. Using huron blackhearts unique bionic arm as an example of how powerfists work is as silly as saying all lightning claws have built in combibolters because Abbadon's Talon of Horus does. The core book does talk about how the powerfield on a powerfist is far stronger than any other weapon's, so strong in fact that the weapon underneath is irrelevant. Let me repeat an important part, so strong a powerfield, the weapon underneath is irrelevant. It even mentions the extra huge field generators.

Also note how huron caving in someones skull with a powermaul does not prove that a powerfist adds str bonus to other weapons damage, it only proves that someones skull was hit by a power maul.

If you disagree, please cite an actual place it says a normal powerfist has hydraulic strength amplification. And if it did, don't you think it would add to your score, you know like other things do that are meant to add strength, like power armor and manipulator mechendendrites?

Then there is the mechanics of it. Have you though about that? Have you punched someone before? The strength behind the hit has nothing to do with the strength in your fist. So it adding damage because of an extra strong fist is kinda silly. Punching something with a destructive energy field so strong it rips tank armor apart makes alot more sense. In your examples a manipulator mechendendrite would be great, but a powerfist is not that.


#27 Nikollo

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:44 PM

Cryhavok said:

Nikollo said:

 

The power fist is so large and heavy, not just because of the power-field generators built into it, but because of all the heavy-duty hydraulics used to strangthen the crushing power of the fingers. If you were to take those out, all you would have is power-fielded fingers, which are not as effective as the alternative (lightning claws). The hrydraulics are where the strength bonus actually comes from, as even with a strong power-field weakening tank armor, it's still tank armor. One should be able to use the additional unnatural strength modifier without the power field, but only when one is using the fingers to crush something or tear it apart. The strength bonus should not apply to overall arm use.

Ex 1: There is a small gap in a ruined bulkhead. You can tell that there are flammable materials leaking over everything on the other side, but it's your only feasible route of escape. The Techmarine is unconscious, and there's not enough time for the Apothecary to revive him, so you can't make use of his servo-arm. The only option is your power fist. However, activating its powerfield greatly increases the risk of setting off the flammable material. Logically you should be able to tear and twist the edges of the gap with the hydraulic might of your powerfist without needing to resort to using the power-field (though it would certainly expedite the widening of the hole).

Ex 2: Your Battle-Brother is pinned to the ground by a large peice of debris. Your power fist may help break it into more manageable chunks, but cannot add its additional strength multiplier to lifting said chunks, and due to its prodigeous weight, should actually work against you, adding a negative madifier to the Strength test. (This should not apply to those using a power fist with Terminator Armor, as the Tactical Dreadnought harness should not only provide a stable platform for the lift, but the rerebrace for the arm with the powerfist would reasonably include additional hydraulics to further facilitate the use of the weapon. Come on, it's Terminator Armor).

As for using another melee weapon in the same hand as a power fist, well, let's look back at an example from the novels:

In the second Night Lords novel, Blood Reaver, the Red Corsairs stormed the Fortress Monastery of the Marines Errant. When they breached the reliquary, Huron Blackheart grabbed one of the two-handed relic power-mauls in his power claw, and stove in the head of one of the reliquary guardians. The power-field for his claw was inactive, and so was the powerfield for the relic maul.

One could use a melee weapon in the power fist-hand, but it would, by necessity, need a long haft that a power fist would be able to firmly grasp (meaning no swords, unless the grip is for two hands). One could not make use of the power fist's power field while doing this or they would destroy the weapon, and they would not be able to make use of any of the special qualities of the weapon being wielded (an Eviscerator wielded in such a manner would be little more than a barbed club). Additional negative modifiers would have be applied, as this set-up would go beyond unwieldy.

This is possible, but would be incredibly stupid to use outside of emergencies, or, in the case of Huron, humiliating the enemy with the inevitability of your victory.

You are wrong. The core book says so. Using huron blackhearts unique bionic arm as an example of how powerfists work is as silly as saying all lightning claws have built in combibolters because Abbadon's Talon of Horus does. The core book does talk about how the powerfield on a powerfist is far stronger than any other weapon's, so strong in fact that the weapon underneath is irrelevant. Let me repeat an important part, so strong a powerfield, the weapon underneath is irrelevant.

 

Also note how huron caving in someones skull with a powermaul does not prove that a powerfist adds str bonus to other weapons damage, it only proves that someones skull was hit by a power maul.

If you disagree, please cite an actual place it says a normal powerfist has hydraulic strength amplification. And if it did, don't you think it would add to your score, you know like other things do that are meant to add strength, like power armor and manipulator mechendendrites?

Then there is the mechanics of it. Have you though about that? Have you punched someone before? The strength behind the hit has nothing to do with the strength in your fist. Making your fist real strong would be kind of silly, unless you were gonna make your whole arm stronger to. What was your strength fist going to do, squeeze things you cant lift? Have you reeaally thought about that hydraulic fist idea of yours?

 

 

Nothing you said made sense until I saw that you misunderstood me (or rather I didn't make myself clear) about strength bonuses in relation to wielding a melee weapon in the power-fist hand. No, there would not be a strength bonus to using a melee weapon in the power-fist hand. There would probably be a strength penalty, actually. The fingers can manipulate, but are not designed for such movement, so the extant unwieldy nature of the power-fist would stack with the clumsy grip brought about by the poor manual dexterity.  It's one of those things that's possible, but not practical in any way.

Your comparison to Abbadon's lightning claw would only make sense if I was arguing that all power-fists have an integral heavy-flamer. I have made no such argument. The logical mechanics of the power-fist/claw with it's oversized digits should allow the ability to manipulate objects at greatly reduced dexterity. Especially when one considers that their fingers are not actually inside the digits we see. Seriously, look at the spacing on those fingers. Even with the size of the Astartes hand, to get a finger in each of those would require that the metacarpals be separated from one another surgically, so the hand is just a wrist-stump with really long, splayed fingers. The fingers on the power-fist are mechanical, either utilizing hydraulics or heavy servos ( http://img11.nnm.ru/...730e5fa01f5.jpg ) (Admittedly this doesn't address the comparable size of the lightning claws, and their lack of an additional strength bonus, but the upped the size to near-power-fist after 3rd ed for some reason I can't wrap my head around. Realisticall, at that size, they shouldn't move as fast as they do).

While the book says the weapon underneath is irrelevant, that doesn't seem to actually be the case, or it would just be a big heavy lump with a normal-sized Astartes gauntlet under it. The hydraulics and servos are described in reference to the power-fist used by Solun Decius in the HH novel Flight of the Eisenstein, and to the power-fist used by Chaplain Eysius in Firedrake. Sometimes punching with the power-fist is not the answer, and you use the hydraulic strength of the fingers in tandem with the power-field tear apart thick obstacles that cannot be taken down as quickly with raw impact force. While it may be reasonably argued that the additional strength multiplier is too much in this instance, some positive strength modifier should be applied.

I work out three times a week, and box at least once a week, and have for the past two years. I know how to throw a punch. Throwing a punch with a power fist is a completely different beast altogether. It's massive and unwieldy (which fists normally are not), shifts your center of gravity (which fists normally don't do), and cannot effectively be used for quick, distracting jabs (which fists normally can do). The power-fist is a big, heavy block of ceremite, power-field generators, and hydraulics/servos that is swung in the direction of the enemy. It would come with additional rerebrace hydraulics to ease strain on the elbow servos, but even a reinforced lever is only as strong as the material it is placed upon. The only time anyone's power-fist technique might be compared to throwing a proper punch would be in the case of Inquisitor Obadiah Roth in Emperor's Mercy.

Making the arm stronger, alone, isn't necessarily going to increase lifting power because there is a ceiling on how much the rest of the body can withstand. If you were to increase the lifting strength of your arm by 500 lb right now, would you be able to deadlift your previous record plus the 500? The answer is no. Not if you didn't additionally strengthen your shoulder, back, and legs. Not to mention the joint strain. Even if one takes a power-fist that is designed to enhance full physical strength A stronger arm does not automatically mean you can lift more, hence why I argued the penalty would not be incurred by one in Terminator Armour (as the rig is actually designed to support the power-fist, and provides a stronger platform for the arm). 

My point is that they leave the fingers there for a reason, and that the massive size of them rules out being left there strictly for the ability to manipulate. Otherwise they would have normal-sized fingers, or they wouldn't have fingers at all.



#28 Routa-maa

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:26 AM

Kasatka said:

The -20 to fine manipulation should be enough indication about how clumsy the glove is - astartes already suffer -10 while in power armour, so i read this -20 as a stacking modifier, for a -30 total. So unless your marine is exceptionally Agile (talking 60/70+) youll be failing a fair few manipulation rolls and your GM should be narratively describing the clumsy and heavy powerfist causing issues.

For starting want to point few things

"A lightning claw is a heavy gauntlet that replaces the normal glove on Astartes power armour"

From Power Fists description "It replaces the normal glove on Astartes power armour, and imposes the same weapon restrictions and manual dexterity penalties as a lightning claw."

Actual wording about poor manual dexterity is

"In addition, the poor manual dexterity penalty increases to –20."

So it's not stacking but only increased to -20.

And my thought about poor manual dexterity penalty is for example that you're trying to pick one match from a pile without disturbing the rest or trying to pick up small fragile item. But for grapping Rhino transports outer ladder beam or using said hand to throw grenade poor manual dexterity isn't going to affect it.

But If you talk about something being possible in Fluff and not in RPG it's not compareble in my mind. As you know one Space Marine, all who have read their share of BL books know who im talking about, ran in Terminator Armour.


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#29 Cryhavok

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:32 AM

@Nikollo: Okay, I see your points. Thank you for the referances. The I can agree that the fingers likely are mechanical to some degree, but I don't think they would be any stronger than the astartes normally is. My comparision involving huron was mor to point oit that his arm is not a normal powerfist, and is not going to follow the same rules as one, so it shouldnt be used as an example of how powerfists act… But then I think I was misreading what you were trying to get across by using that example so enough said there. I am not sure where you are going with the power fist/lightning claw thing. They both have manual dexterity problems because they are both oversized, but it is because one has several powerblades, and the other has huge field generators. I stand by my belief that the powerfield on the fist is enhancing the effect of your strength on the blow, and that being the only reason for the extra strength bonus to damage. Niether fist nor Claw actually enhances strength beyond what the astartes already has. You can of course house rule it however you want.

#30 Nikollo

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 05:53 AM

@Cryhavoc: Agreed, my proposed rules would ultimately be house rules, and the GM is the final word. Agree to disagree on this matter.

The only point I need to clarify is why I brought up lightning claws. They were a weakness in my argument because they have the same massive digits as a power-fist, and I was not proposing the same strength bonus to digit use as I was with the power-fist. Back in early 3rd ed, the design of the lightning claw was different ( http://stebloke.co.u...nators_01_l.jpg ). While they still had big ol' beef fingers, the glove was noticeably smaller than that of the power-fist. After they changed it, lightning claws basically became power-fists with wolverine-claws, and I was pointing out that this move made very little sense to me. That is all that was.

 

@Routa-maa: I think a termie did a backflip in one of the CS Goto novels. I remember there was much rage when that happened.



#31 Cryhavok

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:08 AM

Nikollo said:

@Cryhavoc: Agreed, my proposed rules would ultimately be house rules, and the GM is the final word. Agree to disagree on this matter.

The only point I need to clarify is why I brought up lightning claws. They were a weakness in my argument because they have the same massive digits as a power-fist, and I was not proposing the same strength bonus to digit use as I was with the power-fist. Back in early 3rd ed, the design of the lightning claw was different ( http://stebloke.co.u...nators_01_l.jpg ). While they still had big ol' beef fingers, the glove was noticeably smaller than that of the power-fist. After they changed it, lightning claws basically became power-fists with wolverine-claws, and I was pointing out that this move made very little sense to me. That is all that was.

 

@Routa-maa: I think a termie did a backflip in one of the CS Goto novels. I remember there was much rage when that happened.

Thanks for the referances again. Nothing wrong with house rules to make things work how you see them working, I do it myself on occasion. Good luck to you and your game.

#32 Routa-maa

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 10:35 AM

Nikollo said:

@Routa-maa: I think a termie did a backflip in one of the CS Goto novels. I remember there was much rage when that happened.

Will have to go through that again because I don't remember that one reir


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