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Long lances ¿Restricted?


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#41 Bomb

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:53 AM

flipperlord -

I apologize if you took offense to my post.  I just don't initially view Castellan of the Rock vs Long Lances in the same manner that you do.  Please don't refrain from posting what you think because it's a valuable and fun discussion.

WWDrakey -

Thanks for the insightful post!

I forgot about the non-attachment requirement for Castellan.

I am removing "Limited Response" from Castellan and turning it into "Limit 1 per phase" for the purposes of this fun debate.  It will never become an limitless response.

You outlined why Long Lances is far more versatile than Castellan.  However, I think that it is safe to say that they are generally uncomparable because of how they are used.  It's more of a control card versus a rush or utility multiplier card. 

Long Lances increases your ability to perform actions for you in a game.
-Allows you to reuse your own characters for challenges and paying for costs.  These characters are limited to Targaryen characters only.
-Generally easy to trigger with the number of put into play effects Targaryen has.

Castellan deceases your opponents ability to do perform certain actions in a game.
-Allows you to restrict the opponents ability to use targeted characters that may be effective in challenges or for paying for costs.  These characters can be any opponents character that has no attachments.
-Very easy to trigger by playing a character or location.

 

Castellan disables characters that don't kneel to attack/defend, kneel to trigger their abilities, and helps keep big and key characters from being effective during the challenge phase.  To overcome what Castellan does, you need to have a better board position after the kneeling, a restanding ability, or really good characters still standing afterward. 

Long Lances enables your own characters to allow them to be used multiple times in a round/phase.  These characters might be key targaryen characters in the game and can help you win multiple challenges.

The question is, what is easier to overcome?  Is it easier to deal with having a key character degenerated board position?  Or is it easier to overcome characters that have been restood and are ready to use their ability or reused in a different challenge?  The point of view of the opponent will mostly come from what happens in the Challenge phase as this is where the board position battle rears its ugly head the most.

 



#42 mdc273

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 07:04 AM

WWDrakey said:

 

TL;DR: Long Lances beats Castellan 4-1, with Maesters as their teams MVP. Drakey rants about something obscure and non-sensical called 'House Feel' that no-one else cares about. ;)

 

 

I was more irked with the direct comparison. The flaw in the logic is highlighted by the fact that Ben Roethlisburger is a better QB than Tim Tebow. The Denver Broncos beat the Steelers in the playoffs last year. It would be more accurate to say (based on your post) that a deck containing and centered on Long Lances should generally be better than a deck containing and centered on Castellan. However, I still do not believe there is enough empirical evidence to say that a deck containing and centered on Long Lances is superior to all Tier 1 decks in such a way that it will have a win rate against all Tier 1 decks of significantly more than 50% if both decks are assumed to be controlled by players that will execute "perfect play".

Theory is theory. There was no Mayan apocalypse even though there were people theorizing there would be one. Facts are facts. Water consists of two hydrogen and one oxygen. I can do something concrete with the latter, like break down H2O into its elements. I can only logic out a theoretical situation with the former, like spend all my money expecting to die, and then be proven wrong or right. While Long Lances may be irritating and eventually confirmed as overpowered, I prefer enough evidence for a concrete determination rather than repeat the Laughing Storm scenario.

Edit: H-twenty (H20) isn't water… I am bad at spelling…



#43 kr4ng

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:36 AM

At least, I think we can agree there are some cards that should come off the restricted list: burning on the sand is one that comes to mind.

As the card pool grows, some cards should be removed from the restricted list and some should be added--as general of a statement as that is…



#44 Ire

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:54 AM

kr4ng said:

At least, I think we can agree there are some cards that should come off the restricted list: burning on the sand is one that comes to mind.

As the card pool grows, some cards should be removed from the restricted list and some should be added--as general of a statement as that is…

For BotS I would disagree. I doubt FFG wants to push that event out more (especially to a deck like Martell KotHH with Princes plans) when they are now releasing a new naval mechanic that seems to heavily affect combat math and results by the naval icon. 

This has been done before mostly with Banned cards coming out, but TLS came out of the restricted list as well. I personaly would like to see the list modified more often be that for remove cards, but mostly adding new ones as well. I'm still waiting to see how they change Compelled by the Rock and Jaqen so that they get out of the banned list.



#45 WWDrakey

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:23 PM

~ Man, the new spoiler for Fury (front page) really sements Baratheon as the ruler of stand-effects and compares favorably against both Long Lances and Meereneese Fighting Pit. All my negative feelings over Long Lances have now been completely alleviated. ;)

That boat has the wrong trait, it should be a Submarine instead of a Warship

Sigh.



#46 Alando

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:58 PM

~It's a good thing that the Fury can't stand characters with attachments. Repeated use of maester chains would be far too powerful!



#47 kr4ng

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:50 AM

Ire said:

kr4ng said:

 

At least, I think we can agree there are some cards that should come off the restricted list: burning on the sand is one that comes to mind.

As the card pool grows, some cards should be removed from the restricted list and some should be added--as general of a statement as that is…

 

 

For BotS I would disagree. I doubt FFG wants to push that event out more (especially to a deck like Martell KotHH with Princes plans) when they are now releasing a new naval mechanic that seems to heavily affect combat math and results by the naval icon. 

This has been done before mostly with Banned cards coming out, but TLS came out of the restricted list as well. I personaly would like to see the list modified more often be that for remove cards, but mostly adding new ones as well. I'm still waiting to see how they change Compelled by the Rock and Jaqen so that they get out of the banned list.

I would have to respectfully disagree with you as well. BotS isn't that powerful, ruins setups (barring martell kothh), takes up 3 events slots when event slots are at a premium in this game, and most of the time the card is underwhelming (yes, I am sure everyone has that one time when burning on the sand was just so uber for them).

If they took it off the restricted, I still don't know how many copies I would run especially after the whole next cycle comes out.



#48 Skowza

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:42 AM

Ire said:

I'm still waiting to see how they change Compelled by the Rock and Jaqen so that they get out of the banned list.

Do we have any reason to think that this will happen?  Maybe it was mentioned in an article that I missed, but both cards would need a major change for them to ever see play again; Compelled could be changed to only 1 attachment and you simply gain control of it, end of story, but Jaqen is a mess.



#49 Ire

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:06 AM

Skowza said:

Ire said:

 

I'm still waiting to see how they change Compelled by the Rock and Jaqen so that they get out of the banned list.

 

 

Do we have any reason to think that this will happen?  Maybe it was mentioned in an article that I missed, but both cards would need a major change for them to ever see play again; Compelled could be changed to only 1 attachment and you simply gain control of it, end of story, but Jaqen is a mess.

Skowza said:

Ire said:

 

I'm still waiting to see how they change Compelled by the Rock and Jaqen so that they get out of the banned list.

 

 

Do we have any reason to think that this will happen?  Maybe it was mentioned in an article that I missed, but both cards would need a major change for them to ever see play again; Compelled could be changed to only 1 attachment and you simply gain control of it, end of story, but Jaqen is a mess.

 

Yes, when they announced that the packs would be reprinted they also said they would redo Jaqen and Compelled so that they could come out of the banned list.






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