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Trace amounts of Perfection - New Jinteki Identity


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#21 Messenger

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:17 AM

Keggy said:

Toqtamish said:

 

 [angry angry angry] go post somewhere else more appropriate like BGG.

 

 

This is getting out of hand.  Sending him to BGG?  That's just mean.

To signoftheserpent or to the people at BGG? pillo



#22 Hdnggrnchrg

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:54 AM

Messenger said:

Keggy said:

 

Toqtamish said:

 

 [angry angry angry] go post somewhere else more appropriate like BGG.

 

 

This is getting out of hand.  Sending him to BGG?  That's just mean.

 

To signoftheserpent or to the people at BGG? pillo

 

Send him there, maybe he'll go the way of Michael :D



#23 Ignatz_Von_Zwakh

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 05:25 AM

Geez, these cards are beast. Talk about hemming in the runner.



#24 choux

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:23 AM

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like the new Jinteki ID would be really great for protecting economic assets like Pad Campaign, Melange, and Adonis campaign.  Wouldn't it also make gaining the credits off Bank Job a much bigger hassle?

Also how would it work with the Bullfrog ice previewed from A Study in Static?  Does it end the run or would it not be a legal target?



#25 profligate

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:59 PM

Love all three of these cards.  Super happy to see Fetal AI get a reprint, and the operation is a powered down version of another kickass corp card from back in the day.  The new identity is probably weaker than it looks on the surface, since two of the current runner identities are designed to run central servers often anyway, but I really like the trickiness it represents.



#26 TheRealLeo

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:04 PM

 

Jinteki's stock definitely seems to be going up.

I like the new identity, but I forsee it being hard to manage well. If you can somehow maintain your three central servers, with a Tollbooth installed at the outermost spot on each, it might be pretty useful. Even better if you can get an Archer on each, but that would be way too difficult for Jinteki. Otherwise, the most you're likely to get out of it is a wasted action each round, and maybe a credit or two, before the runner can run your agenda server. Even then, the runner may be able to make use of the run so that the action isn't even a waste, so it's hard to say how well this identity will work.

Again, though, I feel like FFG has undermined the new identity before it is even released by putting it with a card that promotes the use of the core set itentity. Fetal AI pairs so well with Personal Evolution that it almost feels like an exclusive agenda for just that one identity. 3 damage for stealing an agenda (and 2 credits out) is pretty huge. Now the runner has to run with a full (or Dieseled-up) hand when running to score, or they'll be hurting big time. When Trace Amount hits, I'll probably start running Net Shield more often, just because the damage is going to start adding up… unless something better comes along for dealing with net damage.

Trick of Light is also a card I can see myself splashing in quite a few decks, but it's definitely good that they made it a Jinteki card. Jinteki really needed something like this. They are supposed to be the trap masters, and yet I feel like they are currently the worst corporation right now, especially with pulling off the traps successfully. This will help to make their traps more versatile, and may even cause the runner to consider running an advanced junebug, knowing full well what it is, just to trash it.

 

 

 



#27 subochre

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 07:23 PM

TheRealLeo said:

Again, though, I feel like FFG has undermined the new identity before it is even released by putting it with a card that promotes the use of the core set itentity. 

 

I think that's a good thing, to be honest.  Fetal AI is good enough that I would use it with either identity, but the synergy with Personal Evolution is probably the one thing that'll keep me from putting PE back in the box and never taking it out again.  

Forcing a run on a central server is huge.  And you don't need triple tollbooths or Archers or even Katanas for Replicating Perfection to be worthwhile…a simple Hunter on Archives is enough to add insult to injury, but even if it's just a wasted click for the run, that'e enough to get more mileage out of your Bullfrog and Nisei II delays, seriously hurt Wyldside, and so on.

So by subtly boosting their comparatively lackluster core set identity, they're encouraging a more diverse range of viable Jinteki strategies, which is definitely welcome news.



#28 Toqtamish

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:19 AM

TheRealLeo said:

Again, though, I feel like FFG has undermined the new identity before it is even released by putting it with a card that promotes the use of the core set itentity.

I don't this is an accurate statement at all. Nothing says that every card they release in the data pack cycle has to help the identity released in the data pack cycle over the core set identities. Both identities need cards to expand their decks with.



#29 vermillian

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 03:23 AM

So, can I just beef up my hand and remote servers then, leaving my 45 card deck naked? (Are there cards that let me search my RnD and add them to my HQ? If so, I'm going for agenda and completely minimizing the chances of the runner grabbing any from RnD!)



#30 Messenger

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 03:41 AM

vermillian said:

So, can I just beef up my hand and remote servers then, leaving my 45 card deck naked? (Are there cards that let me search my RnD and add them to my HQ? If so, I'm going for agenda and completely minimizing the chances of the runner grabbing any from RnD!)

Yes, there are, but they're in another faction (Aggressive Negotiation) and one of them can't be "borrowed" using influence points (Project Atlas). Even then, you'd still need to score some agendas to begin with.

Then again, Jinteki does have Precognition



#31 Messenger

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 03:56 AM

Toqtamish said:

TheRealLeo said:

 

Again, though, I feel like FFG has undermined the new identity before it is even released by putting it with a card that promotes the use of the core set itentity.

 

 

I don't this is an accurate statement at all. Nothing says that every card they release in the data pack cycle has to help the identity released in the data pack cycle over the core set identities. Both identities need cards to expand their decks with.

I agree. The game's newly released and we're only about to see our second expansion.

Furthermore, consider that the opposite- FFG supports the new identity with cards that promote it over the older one- would undermine older cards instead. Thus, we'd only be two expansions in and yet Jinteki's original identity would already be "obsolete".

At this point, going back to Jinteki's 1st identity is a fair thing to do as far as fleshing out the game is concerned. Besides, it can't be said that the new identity doesn't already have the parts it needs from the Core Set or WLA.



#32 TheRealLeo

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:49 AM

Toqtamish said:

 

TheRealLeo said:

 

Again, though, I feel like FFG has undermined the new identity before it is even released by putting it with a card that promotes the use of the core set itentity.

 

 

I don't this is an accurate statement at all. Nothing says that every card they release in the data pack cycle has to help the identity released in the data pack cycle over the core set identities. Both identities need cards to expand their decks with.

 

 

But there really isn't anything that truly helps the new identity right now at all. If there had been at least one card that clearly was more useful with the new identity over the original, then I wouldn't have a problem with it, but there isn't. Something like an operation that can rearrange a piece of ice or two would have done the trick, but we haven't seen anything like that yet, so now we have to wait for this one to become more useful, and the more likely choice right now would be to stick with the original identity.

EQUAL support would have been optimal, so that anyone who wants to play Jinteki now has to think hard about which identity they want. Even just one card that works better with the new one would have been helpful. Of course, it probably wasn't as bad as releasing Imp alongside Whizzard. Still, though, I'm not feeling very encouraged to try this new identity, considering it is going to be too hard to maintain a solid arrangement of ice on my central servers, especially with the popularity of Parasite and Femme Fatale in my local meta.

And no, Hunter is not really that insulting, especially if I'm running Kate with my Rabbit Holes and Toolbox. Then I'm just laughing at you. And with all the new (and very painful) trace cards, that's not at all an unlikely scenario. I've even started throwing those silly Access to Globalsecs into my other decks, just because it gets to be rather costly having to fight off all these new traces, so Hunter's stock as dropped drastically.



#33 Talamare

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 01:28 AM

The problem is that BOTH Jinteki Identities SUCK

 

The 1st one rarely happens, and even when it does the effect is pretty minor (and please spare me the stories about how you won because a stupid runner forgot about the effect)

The 2nd one is much stronger in that the effect is basically - The runner must spend 1 additional click  to run remove servers this turn
which basically means it will happen more often… EXCEPT… 2 out of the 3 runners prefer to run on Central Servers anyways…

Well at the very least Jinteki might have a better economy now, since trashing Pad Campaigns are slightly more of a hassle



#34 Devlan

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 02:11 AM

I wouldn't say they both suck, I just think they need a bit of playtesting.  I'm really looking forward to running Jinteki with the new Identity, Shipment from Kayuga, and a whole ton of remote servers, just to mess with people.  And once Bullfrog comes out, it'll be even better.  Jinteki's new identity just requires them to slap Wall of Thorns or Neural Katana on your core servers and it's like adding an additional ICE to all of your remote servers, the more the merrier.  My only real apprehension right now is that you'll be relying a bit on card draws, and it will take a long time to set up.



#35 Talamare

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 03:14 AM

Devlan said:

I wouldn't say they both suck, I just think they need a bit of playtesting.  I'm really looking forward to running Jinteki with the new Identity, Shipment from Kayuga, and a whole ton of remote servers, just to mess with people.  And once Bullfrog comes out, it'll be even better.  Jinteki's new identity just requires them to slap Wall of Thorns or Neural Katana on your core servers and it's like adding an additional ICE to all of your remote servers, the more the merrier.  My only real apprehension right now is that you'll be relying a bit on card draws, and it will take a long time to set up.

Ah dont get me wrong I think the new Identity is significantly better than the current one, but lets compare a bit

HB +1 Credit per turn or Make the runner potentially spend +1~2 credits per run
Weyland +1 Credit every few turns, with potential of it happening 2~3x in one turn
NBN +2 Credit per turn but with a narrow usage, slightly better tho with WLA but still a bit 'eh' but whatever

Then on Jinteki side we get 1 Net Damage about 3~5x per game

The new one at least equates to the runner needing to spend 1 extra action per turn to run on your remote servers however this is reduced by 2 things

1 - This assumes he was not going to run a central anyways, and honestly running R&D once per turn is often pretty good idea
2 - The runner wanted to run your remote servers to begin with that turn

2 is a little tricky but let me explain, There are 3 Runner Factions - Anarch, Criminal and Shaper

Anarch because of medium specialize in running R&D
Criminal because of Sneakdoor Beta and Gabe specialize in running HQ
Shapers are a little bit more versatile in that they have less bias but then they fall into the first reason 1, in that they probably want to peak at your R&D every turn or go wild with a Makers Eye

I will admit tho, this new card probably the better of the 2 choices, and I want to try Jinteki with it and making a ton of asset servers. This actually does sound kinda of fun. Not to mention Bullfrog seems a lot more interesting with this card (assuming a runner doesnt just break his subs to avoid needing to dealing with your shenanigans)

I saw this thread receive a lot of praise commenting the Jinteki Net Damage Identity with the new Fetal AI, except Runners have already become accustomed to overdrawing when facing Jinteki. So they likely will not flatline from the 1 extra damage from the Identity.

However it actually combos better with the new Identity by compounding things. Allow me to explain as well. If the Runner needs to spend an action to overdraw, then they need an action to run a central server, and then finally they get to spend an action to actually make the run on the Fetal AI, assuming they even are running on the Fetal AI since Jinteki probably has a bunch of remote servers, This in my eyes punish runners much more heavily than them having to discard an extra card.



#36 profligate

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 12:04 PM

IMO, the new Jinteki identity is on par with HB's original identity.  It will have a positive, ongoing effect on the game from start to finish, (positive if you're the Jinteki player anyway.)

IMO, the original Jinteki identity is a touch better than Weyland's, (given the card pool at the moment,) but not quite as good as the original HB identity.  I believe that too many people look at one net damage as insignificant.  The problem is that people think the only thing damage is good for is flatlining the runner.  I'm gonna get all obnoxious and internet-yelling now.  *THIS IS NOT THE PURPOSE OF JINTEKI'S ORIGINAL IDENTITY*  While yes, it can help arrive at that end, the primary purpose is to disrupt the runner.  Runner decks are tight and often only have deck space for 1 or 2 copies of a particular card.  When the runner takes a single point of damage that doesn't kill him/her, it's not *just* wasting a click to have drawn that card and another to replace it; it's also potentially getting rid of a threat -- probably permanently (at least with the current cardpool, Anarch aside.)



#37 WhiteDragon

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 09:41 PM

profligate said:

IMO, the new Jinteki identity is on par with HB's original identity.  It will have a positive, ongoing effect on the game from start to finish, (positive if you're the Jinteki player anyway.)

IMO, the original Jinteki identity is a touch better than Weyland's, (given the card pool at the moment,) but not quite as good as the original HB identity.  I believe that too many people look at one net damage as insignificant.  The problem is that people think the only thing damage is good for is flatlining the runner.  I'm gonna get all obnoxious and internet-yelling now.  *THIS IS NOT THE PURPOSE OF JINTEKI'S ORIGINAL IDENTITY*  While yes, it can help arrive at that end, the primary purpose is to disrupt the runner.  Runner decks are tight and often only have deck space for 1 or 2 copies of a particular card.  When the runner takes a single point of damage that doesn't kill him/her, it's not *just* wasting a click to have drawn that card and another to replace it; it's also potentially getting rid of a threat -- probably permanently (at least with the current cardpool, Anarch aside.)

 

I agree with that. Jinteky is Jinteky, it harder to master, it depends on bluffing [a social skill], it is tricky. Jinteky decks is for pro poker gamers who can easy bluff and adapt. In many player hands it is weaker corps comparing to HB, NBN, W. But it is diferent and if you have good bluff skills it is amazing what you can pull off with it. So I think this whole comparing is a mater of point of view and local metagame.



#38 Runix

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:41 AM

I don't think the two Identity cards can be compared head-to-head, as the new one in particular creates almost a new style of play.

The Core Set Identity is more about attrition, and as noted above, about disrupting the Runner by forcing discards of critical cards.  Unlike tag-based Net damage, you are guaranteed discards from the Runner's hand, whether you are winning or she is.  That's valuable in and of itself.

The new Identity, on the other hand, is more about building up a fortress-like position.  At the start, yes, it's only an extra click for a run on a remote server, as the Runner will just go through the typically undefended Archives.  But as soon as all three central servers have ice up, you are extracting not just a click, but possibly an extra toll for every run.  A minimum level of protection on each of the servers - say, a Wall of Static - will extract a click and some extra credits every time the Runner wants to even think about hitting a remote server - even one with an annoying Pad Campaign sitting undefended.  That won't break the Runner the way a timely Snare! will, but it absolutely will put a lot of pressure on the Runner's time and credit pool.

Given that difference, I see the two decks building very differently.  Right now, with Jinteki you're better off loading it with traps and trying to fill the Runner with fear of the dreaded flatline - or at a minimum, being forced to discard a needed card.  With the new Identity, it will be more about loading up the deck with cheap but effective ice that provides a protective outer layer to the central servers, with more powerful ice going to protect critical servers, particularly "inner" remote servers.  It's less Jinteki-i (so to speak), and more fortress HB-ish - but with the option to do some damage to the Runner at the same time.



#39 Penfold

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 08:21 AM

Someone who gets it.

Identity cards are not intended to be looked as power cards, but as strategy defining cards. If you are choosing your identity based solely on how powerful the identity is, you run the risk of an identity and deck that don't really compliment each other. Choosing an identity is a declaration of strategy, and possibly even play style preference. If you like bluffing and forcing the runner to waste time and cards then the Core Jinteki ID is for you, but if you like a more direct approach while forcing the runner to waste time and credits the Trace Amount Jinteki ID is for you.

This identity lets you create a single massive iced up server to protect your agendas with enough dangerous ice on your central servers to keep them from getting easy access. Every run they initiate and jack out after the first ice to target your giant server is wasted time and credits on their part. And they still have to get through your fortified server to get to that agenda you've been advancing. If they ignore that server then your agendas are perfectly safe to advance and score as is convenient to you.

The original ID is about spreading your server's out and playing a guessing game on the order of 3-card Monty. Where is the agenda? Is that a Snare! there? Perhaps a Junebug? If it is an agenda is it a Fetal AI? Is it a PAD campaign. With little ability to tell, and now Trick of Light to move credits from a Prject Junebug to an unadvanced agenda laid out last turn lets you score a 4 point with little fear.

Jinteki is not for everyone, Weyland and Haas-Bioroid are certainly going to be much more straight forward and much more well suited to the average player, but don't mistake your dislike of Jinteki and inability to make them work as proof of their weakness or non-competitiveness. Do so and you're going to find yourself in a fair amount of trouble as the Runner. Respect the Bonsai.



#40 TheRealLeo

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 11:44 AM

Penfold said:

Choosing an identity is a declaration of strategy, and possibly even play style preference.

I would certainly hope not. Otherwise, as the Corp player, you're gonna lose fairly often if you make yourself predictable just based on the identity you choose. Your identity (when playing Corp) should, at worst, not interfere with your overall deck strategy. Even better if it can be of great use, which is why HB's Core identity is so good. It works with basically any strategy (you always need money, and you'll always be installing things), and it doesn't give anything away about your setup or what you plan to do.

This new Jinteki identity has one downside in that regard, in that it's a significant tell about what strategy you are going to employ. Another downside is that it doesn't have any real support from the current cardbase. If you want to make it work well for you, you're going to have to do all the work yourself, and that's a tall order. Protecting your central servers effectively (because you should still protect your deck and hand) while keeping a mean piece of ice on the outside of each server is very hard to do, especially with a Corp that has credit problems.

And no, wall of static won't do the trick. Anything that simply ends the run doesn't force the runner to waste anything but an action, so you would have to do something like Archer, Tollbooth, maybe Neural Katana (though I wouldn't because of Mimic), and if you're feeling lucky, an Enigma or Bioroid of some sort. Heck, the best one in my opinion would be Janus, but good luck getting that thing up and running. atontado






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