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Khorne Berzerkers and their lot - just how aligned are they?


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#1 Cifer

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 03:22 AM

We now have several character types that start the game aligned to someone. The Khorne Berzerker, the Xurunt Frost Father, the Thousand Son and the Q'Sal Psyker. So… just how aligned are these guys? How many of their starting talents count for their alignment? How many more do I need to gain the Mark, how many other deity advancements may I get without jeopardizing the alignment?



#2 Terraneaux

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 01:57 PM

RAW, they are condsidered 'aligned' only until they have to check again at a Corruption Threshold, and remember that advancements that come as part of your class don't count.  

 

House ruling this for your games would be reasonable.



#3 MILLANDSON

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 04:31 PM

Cifer said:

We now have several character types that start the game aligned to someone. The Khorne Berzerker, the Xurunt Frost Father, the Thousand Son and the Q'Sal Psyker. So… just how aligned are these guys? How many of their starting talents count for their alignment? How many more do I need to gain the Mark, how many other deity advancements may I get without jeopardizing the alignment?

Remember that you don't automatically get the Mark of your god, it's a Gift you get when you hit your next Corruption milestone.


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#4 Karlkrlarsson

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:25 PM

Terraneaux said:

RAW, they are condsidered 'aligned' only until they have to check again at a Corruption Threshold, and remember that advancements that come as part of your class don't count.  

 

House ruling this for your games would be reasonable.

I have been wondering about this myself. Reading the rules, I think this is the RAW way to do it.

 

You start alligned to Khorne, but have no alignment points either way. If you reach a corruption milestone, you see if any alignment have 5 or more advances. If they do, you convert to that alignment, or stay as you are.

 

So a Berzerker would remain aligned with Khorne, even with less than five Khorne advances, unless he bought into someone elses.



#5 HappyDaze

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 02:27 AM

I would set the starting value as if they have 5 advances in whatever you begin play aligned with and 0 in the other three. Taking advances with xp then adjusts these values.


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#6 BrotharTearer

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 03:01 AM

When I started as one of those archetypes I compared my starting character's talents and skills with what the basis for that archetype was (TSS vs sorcerer, Q'sal vs psyker) and counted the advancements beyond the "base", giving me my different advancements and the alignment (i.e. basic psyker/sorcerer is 0, adding upon that what the archetype gives you [including the applicable choices you make if any]).



#7 Terraneaux

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 07:40 AM

Karlkrlarsson said:

You start alligned to Khorne, but have no alignment points either way. If you reach a corruption milestone, you see if any alignment have 5 or more advances. If they do, you convert to that alignment, or stay as you are.

So a Berzerker would remain aligned with Khorne, even with less than five Khorne advances, unless he bought into someone elses.

 

That would be a very reasonable house rule, but that's now how the books do it.  



#8 Karlkrlarsson

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 12:42 AM

Terraneaux said:

Karlkrlarsson said:

You start alligned to Khorne, but have no alignment points either way. If you reach a corruption milestone, you see if any alignment have 5 or more advances. If they do, you convert to that alignment, or stay as you are.

 

So a Berzerker would remain aligned with Khorne, even with less than five Khorne advances, unless he bought into someone elses.

 

 

 

That would be a very reasonable house rule, but that's now how the books do it.  

 

Could you show me?



#9 Terraneaux

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 02:58 PM

Karlkrlarsson said:

Could you show me?

 

Khorne Berzerkers begin the game aligned to Khorne, that's established quite clearly by their entry.  When they reach their next corruption threshold, as desribed under 'checking alignment' on p. 75 of the core book, they will then examine their total number of talents purchased, keeping in mind that, as stated on p. 75, advances gained as part of an Archetype do not count towards the total.  



#10 BrotharTearer

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:49 PM

Terraneaux said:

 

Karlkrlarsson said:

Could you show me?

Khorne Berzerkers begin the game aligned to Khorne, that's established quite clearly by their entry.  When they reach their next corruption threshold, as desribed under 'checking alignment' on p. 75 of the core book, they will then examine their total number of talents purchased, keeping in mind that, as stated on p. 75, advances gained as part of an Archetype do not count towards the total.  

 

 

That methodology is not fair to advanced archetypes though. You've basically got 3600/4600 worth of xp not counting for alignment, and in effect Mark progression.

My methodology when it comes to alignment and advanced archetypes is identifying the "base archetype" and then counting all advances given/chosen beyond what the base has. Sorcerer vs TSS, Psyker vs Q'Sal Magister, Heretek vs Magos etc. I checked the TSS and Q'Sal Magister and they both have atleast 5 Tzeentch advances more than any other which would explain their starting alignment. It's entirely possible the same principle is true for all other advanced archetypes as well (in fact I assume it is so, but I haven't checked myself yet).



#11 ShadowRay

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:58 PM

BrotharTearer said:

Terraneaux said:

 

Karlkrlarsson said:

Could you show me?

Khorne Berzerkers begin the game aligned to Khorne, that's established quite clearly by their entry.  When they reach their next corruption threshold, as desribed under 'checking alignment' on p. 75 of the core book, they will then examine their total number of talents purchased, keeping in mind that, as stated on p. 75, advances gained as part of an Archetype do not count towards the total.  

 

 

That methodology is not fair to advanced archetypes though. You've basically got 3600/4600 worth of xp not counting for alignment, and in effect Mark progression.

My methodology when it comes to alignment and advanced archetypes is identifying the "base archetype" and then counting all advances given/chosen beyond what the base has. Sorcerer vs TSS, Psyker vs Q'Sal Magister, Heretek vs Magos etc. I checked the TSS and Q'Sal Magister and they both have atleast 5 Tzeentch advances more than any other which would explain their starting alignment. It's entirely possible the same principle is true for all other advanced archetypes as well (in fact I assume it is so, but I haven't checked myself yet).



For me geting the mark should be harder for them, as they start with much better abilities then their base archeotype. However They shouldn't be at 0 advances for everyone as they start with 15+ cp and by RAW when they get another 5 (which can be done in an instant) they would be unalighned unless they quickly spend exp into some god specific advances. Starting them just at 5 towards their god seems ok.



#12 Cifer

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 03:17 AM

For me geting the mark should be harder for them, as they start with much better abilities then their base archeotype.

Better special abilities, yet more specific and fewer talents. Additionally, there's not much strategic positioning possible with their alignment - a Q'Sal Magister can't get a quick fix of Sound Constitution or whatever else khornish/nurglish talents he'd like before getting aligned since he already starts the game that way.

Saying that a Khornate Berzerker should have a harder time getting the mark than a regular archetype feels rather insulting and untrue to the character, especially as the archetypes often already have the low-tier talents of their patron deity, so getting more becomes even more expensive.

 

I'll presumably go with BrotharTearer's method, although it's somewhat disappointing that the rulebook didn't not the number of counting advances in it.



#13 Terraneaux

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 06:51 AM

BrotharTearer said:

That methodology is not fair to advanced archetypes though. You've basically got 3600/4600 worth of xp not counting for alignment, and in effect Mark progression.

 

 

It's definitely problematic, there's a very large chance that one of these characters will uncontrollably devolve to unaligned when their corruption threshold increments.  There are a number of ways to resolve this, your method would work great.  Keep in mind that I'm assessing things the way they are, not the way they should be.



#14 BrotharTearer

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:41 AM

ShadowRay said:

 

For me geting the mark should be harder for them, as they start with much better abilities then their base archeotype. However They shouldn't be at 0 advances for everyone as they start with 15+ cp and by RAW when they get another 5 (which can be done in an instant) they would be unalighned unless they quickly spend exp into some god specific advances. Starting them just at 5 towards their god seems ok.

 

You're missing that +9 Infamy and +15 Corruption is what you get by adding +3000 starting xp to base archetypes. It would make no sense at all if a GM allowed someone to start with an advanced archetype while all other basic archetypes get the default 500/1000 starting xp. They should get an extra 2000-3000 xp to keep the powerlevels balanced in the warband. In other words, your argument is flawed.

One of the major drawbacks of the advanced archetypes is a lack of choice, which is why you don't necessarily want basic archetypes to start with as much xp as the advanced ones are worth. You can in most cases do much better optimizing with a basic archetype and lots of xp to spend (buying advances when they're unaligned, as you know they will become opposed soon etc), in addition that you'd be able to reach a Mark much faster with a basic archetype than with an advanced archetype because they've usually not tried very hard to just go hardcore into one Dark God and instead spreading it out a bit. One good example is the Q'Sal Magister which has 500 xp invested in exotic weapon training (crystal caster), something which most characters will not use due to lacking BS skills or focus on psychic powers.

Try my method on a few of the archetypes, and see what alignment counts you end up on when making your advanced archetype character (choosing options etc). Maybe after that you'll see the value of the method compared to the alternatives suggested.



#15 Karlkrlarsson

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:42 PM

Terraneaux said:

BrotharTearer said:

That methodology is not fair to advanced archetypes though. You've basically got 3600/4600 worth of xp not counting for alignment, and in effect Mark progression.

 

 

IIt's definitely problematic, there's a very large chance that one of these characters will uncontrollably devolve to unaligned when their corruption threshold increments.  There are a number of ways to resolve this, your method would work great.  Keep in mind that I'm assessing things the way they are, not the way they should be.

 

I think you misunderstood me earlier.

 

My point is that there is no deevolution to unaligned. Your Example berzerker starts alligned with Khorne. When he reaches a threshold he checks if he has become aligned with any power. If he doesn't, he remains alugned with Khorne. I find nothing that this us supported by the rules.

 



#16 Terraneaux

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 08:12 PM

Karlkrlarsson said:

Terraneaux said:My point is that there is no deevolution to unaligned. Your Example berzerker starts alligned with Khorne. When he reaches a threshold he checks if he has become aligned with any power. If he doesn't, he remains alugned with Khorne. I find nothing that this us supported by the rules.

 

That's not how checking alignment at a corruption threshold works.  When you hit a corruption threshold, if you do not have 5 or more advances more of one god than any other, you become unaligned.  



#17 Reverend mort

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 10:38 PM

Terraneaux said:

Karlkrlarsson said:

 

Terraneaux said:My point is that there is no deevolution to unaligned. Your Example berzerker starts alligned with Khorne. When he reaches a threshold he checks if he has become aligned with any power. If he doesn't, he remains alugned with Khorne. I find nothing that this us supported by the rules.

 

 

That's not how checking alignment at a corruption threshold works.  When you hit a corruption threshold, if you do not have 5 or more advances more of one god than any other, you become unaligned.  



Actually, not really. Perhaps that was the intent, but the book doesn't say that.



"Whenever a Heretic earns 10 Corruption Points (in other words, when they hit the thresholds of 10, 20, 30, and soforth), they check Alignment. This means they compare how many Advancements they have purchased that are affiliated with each Chaos Power. If they have changed Alignment (by having five more advancements dedicated to any one Chaos Power than any other), then they switch their Alignment to the God in question."

pg 75.

You only change alignment if you have 5 more advances to any other god. You do not change if you No Longer have 5 more than any other god, nor can you actually ever return to being unaligned. You can only switch into the good graces of another god, and it's already made clear that unaligned is not a god, and that it's advances are not tallied for the purposes of Alignment.

So yeah. While Advanced archetypes not listing how many (if any) of their purchases count towards a Mark is problematic, for the purpose of alignment it isn't.

If none of the advancements gotten during chargen count for the purposes of alignment, then any advanced archetype will stay aligned until they purchase 5 more advances towards any other god, without purchasing anything to counter-balance that.


#18 ShadowRay

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 07:02 AM

Reverend mort said:

Terraneaux said:

 

Karlkrlarsson said:

 

Terraneaux said:My point is that there is no deevolution to unaligned. Your Example berzerker starts alligned with Khorne. When he reaches a threshold he checks if he has become aligned with any power. If he doesn't, he remains alugned with Khorne. I find nothing that this us supported by the rules.

 

 

That's not how checking alignment at a corruption threshold works.  When you hit a corruption threshold, if you do not have 5 or more advances more of one god than any other, you become unaligned.  

 



Actually, not really. Perhaps that was the intent, but the book doesn't say that.

 



"Whenever a Heretic earns 10 Corruption Points (in other words, when they hit the thresholds of 10, 20, 30, and soforth), they check Alignment. This means they compare how many Advancements they have purchased that are affiliated with each Chaos Power. If they have changed Alignment (by having five more advancements dedicated to any one Chaos Power than any other), then they switch their Alignment to the God in question."

pg 75.

You only change alignment if you have 5 more advances to any other god. You do not change if you No Longer have 5 more than any other god, nor can you actually ever return to being unaligned. You can only switch into the good graces of another god, and it's already made clear that unaligned is not a god, and that it's advances are not tallied for the purposes of Alignment.

So yeah. While Advanced archetypes not listing how many (if any) of their purchases count towards a Mark is problematic, for the purpose of alignment it isn't.

If none of the advancements gotten during chargen count for the purposes of alignment, then any advanced archetype will stay aligned until they purchase 5 more advances towards any other god, without purchasing anything to counter-balance that.


 

There actually is a note about unalighning yourself somewhere in the book (I cannot seem to find it right now), and there is also a note in an example:

pg 84.
EXAMPLE
When selecting Advances, Jason begins by selecting Iron Jaw, Survival,
Sound Constitution twice, and Hardy. Because these all have the key
word “Nurgle,” and his character has no other Talents, his character
has taken 5 Talents with the Nurgle keyword and is on the path of
Nurgle. If Jason receives 10 Corruption Points before selecting any
more advances, then he would become Aligned to Nurgle.
If he then selects a Talent with the key word “Khorne,” he would
only have 4 more Talents aligned to Nurgle than any other Gods.
However, his alignment would not change until he received 10 more
Corruption Points. At that stage, he would return to being unaligned.

To remain upon Nurgle’s path, he would first have to choose another
Advance with the key word “Nurgle.”

 

But we don't blame anyone forr missing it, there is a lot of missable things in the book.



#19 Reverend mort

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 08:13 AM

Yeah, things become very missable when you don't put them next to the relevant bits. That said, that means that FFG has had two entire books with pre-aligned archetypes that, if played until the next corruption checkpoint with NO change in their advancements, revert to unaligned. That's pretty damn sad. 



#20 Terraneaux

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 09:28 AM

Reverend mort said:

Yeah, things become very missable when you don't put them next to the relevant bits. That said, that means that FFG has had two entire books with pre-aligned archetypes that, if played until the next corruption checkpoint with NO change in their advancements, revert to unaligned. That's pretty damn sad. 

 

Also, depending on the reading, if you blow past a corruption threshold in character creation (from 15 to 20), you have to check alignment again - which puts you at unaligned.






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