Jump to content



Photo

Into Ithilien: the first broken scenario?


  • Please log in to reply
93 replies to this topic

#21 danpoage

danpoage

    Member

  • Members
  • 279 posts

Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:00 AM

I think that you should give HoN a chance. I suspect that a lot of the talk about the difficultly of the HoN quests is coming from people who tried to shoehorn existing decks into these scenarios. I firmly believe that you can make effective decks for these scenarios with a more limited card pool (especially if you include Beregond as one of your heroes). Sure, if you don't like tactics you're going to be hard-pressed to field a deck that beats the HoN scenarios with any sort of consistency, but I do not think that you need every LotR card ever printed to make a workable deck.

Solo is a different matter, but assuming you are playing with two players, and the other deck includes Spirit/Lore for cancel/healing, you can make a very effective tactics/leadership deck that will serve as your questing and combat deck for the HoN scenarios.

 

This deck is off the top of my head, but it only requires 1 core set, 3 chapter packs (2 of which you may already have) and HoN:

Heroes:

Beregond (HoN)

Gimli

Gloin

 

Allies: 24

Errand Rider (HoN) x3

Gondorian Spearman x3

Defender of Rammas (HoN) x3

Vassal of the Windlord (The Dead Marshes AP) x3

Winged Guardian (The Hunt For Gollum AP) x3

Veteran Axehand x3

Gandalf x3

Beorning Beekeeper (Conflict at the Carrock AP) x2

Beorn x1

 

Attachments: 14

Citadel Plate x2

Citadel Spear (HoN) x2

Dwarven Axe x2

Horn of Gondor x1

Steward of Gondor x2

Song of Battle (The Dead Marshes AP) x1

Dunedain Mark (The Hunt for Gollum AP) x2

Dunedain Warning (Conflict at the Carrock AP) x2

 

Events: 12

Feint x2

Swift Strike x1

Sneak Attack x2

Thicket of Spears x1

Behind Strong Walls (HoN) x3

Campfire Tales (The Hunt for Gollum AP) x3

 

I'm not claiming that this deck is automatic against the HoN scenarios, but assuming you play it with a support deck that can cancel some treacheries, quest during the few "normal" stages, and heal Gimli and Gloin when needed, this can be a very effective deck. I think it's a myth that you have to have all of the cards to make effective decks; certainly, it makes it easier, but there are some very good cards in the core set.

Ultimately, we all have our own preferences of the level of difficulty that we prefer. Personally, I really enjoy the challenge of the new scenarios, particularly the way that Battle and Siege quests have forced me to reexamine tactics cards that I previously may have dismissed. I encourage you to keep an open mind, and consider that even without buying other AP's or Expansions, Heirs of Numenor is something that you might enjoy.


Hall of Beorn

The Grey Company

"To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all."
—Oscar Wilde


#22 Bullroarer Took

Bullroarer Took

    Member

  • Members
  • 950 posts

Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:17 AM

In my opinion they should not make the quests that much more difficult.

1.  It discourages new players and the more people playing the game the longer we can expect it to last.

2.  It restricts play style.

3.  "Nightmare mode" play packs are already in the works and these can ramp up the quest difficulty for the more experienced masochists among us.

I don't like the arguement that the quests will become easier with new card packs.  After I played Khazad Dum a few times I adjusted and was able to beat those quests using the tools at hand.  I didn't even have to change my heros, just my strategy.

This begs the question though:  what is a reasonable win percentage for a quest for an experienced player using a good deck?

Easy - 90% ?

Mid - 50% ?

Hard - 10% ?

(I am avoiding using FFG's numbering system since it seems completely arbitrary.)


Nearly all of my comments are from the perspective of the single handed solo player.

#23 Stenun

Stenun

    Member

  • Members
  • 265 posts

Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:38 AM

danpoage said:

This deck is off the top of my head, but it only requires 1 core set, 3 chapter packs (2 of which you may already have) and HoN:

Heroes:

Beregond (HoN)

Gimli

Gloin

 

Allies: 24

Errand Rider (HoN) x3

Gondorian Spearman x3

Defender of Rammas (HoN) x3

Vassal of the Windlord (The Dead Marshes AP) x3

Winged Guardian (The Hunt For Gollum AP) x3

Veteran Axehand x3

Gandalf x3

Beorning Beekeeper (Conflict at the Carrock AP) x2

Beorn x1

 

Attachments: 14

Citadel Plate x2

Citadel Spear (HoN) x2

Dwarven Axe x2

Horn of Gondor x1

Steward of Gondor x2

Song of Battle (The Dead Marshes AP) x1

Dunedain Mark (The Hunt for Gollum AP) x2

Dunedain Warning (Conflict at the Carrock AP) x2

 

Events: 12

Feint x2

Swift Strike x1

Sneak Attack x2

Thicket of Spears x1

Behind Strong Walls (HoN) x3

Campfire Tales (The Hunt for Gollum AP) x3

 

Unless you are EXTREMELY lucky, Blocking Wargs will rip this deck apart.

Remember; it does 1 damage to every questing character, is normally shuffled back into the deck AND has Surge.  And there are four copies of it in the deck.  And you don't seem to have any defence against it at all.

Unless all four copies come up as Shadow Cards, I don't believe this deck can beat Into Ithilien.  Sorry.



#24 danpoage

danpoage

    Member

  • Members
  • 279 posts

Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:25 AM

Stenun said:

Unless you are EXTREMELY lucky, Blocking Wargs will rip this deck apart.

Remember; it does 1 damage to every questing character, is normally shuffled back into the deck AND has Surge.  And there are four copies of it in the deck.  And you don't seem to have any defence against it at all.

Unless all four copies come up as Shadow Cards, I don't believe this deck can beat Into Ithilien.  Sorry.

I agree, blocking Wargs will rip this deck apart. Having played, and beaten Into Ithilien with a few different decks now, Blocking Wargs rips every deck apart, unless you can cancel it when it comes up or you get enough of an ally presence out and have healing on hand. In my experience, Blocking Wargs is *the* reason why Into Ithilien will always have a fair amount of luck involved, moreso, I would argue than most other scenarios in the game.

As I mentioned above, this deck needs to be played in a two player game alongside a Spirit/Lore support deck. I'm not saying that this is the ideal deck for Into Ithilien, I was simply providing an example of a deck that could be effective (with support) against HoN quests with a limited card pool. Yes, you will need to get some luck, as, in my experience, does every deck against that scenario. Even with two highly tuned decks using all available cards, a handful of games that we played were lost within the first two rounds simply because of bad draws from the encounter deck. There is no magic bullet solution to that, but I do believe that this deck, with support, could be effective against Into Ithilien. It's a matter of expectation, there is no way with this card pool that you are going to make a pair of decks that beat Into Ithilien even 50% of the time, but you would be hard pressed to make two decks that meet that criteria using every card currently available.

Since I just came up with this deck off the top of my head and haven't had a chance to play with it, it may very well be entirely ineffective against Into Ithilien. The only way to know for sure is to try it out. I actually quite enjoy the challenge of deck-building with (admittedly arbitrary) constraints so I am going to take this as a goal, and an experiment:

Is it possible to build two decks that have at least a 20% chance of beating Into Ithilien using only the following:

1 Core Set

3 Chapter Packs (The Hunt for Gollum, The Dead Marshes, Conflict at the Carrock)

1 Heirs of Numenor

Having played Into Ithilien several times, and having had to tune decks specifically to deal with it (particularly Blocking Wargs), I suspect that you may be right. This, or a deck like it using the above card pool, may be impossibly overmatched by this scenario. In any case, I am now very curious to try this out. I will work on a Spirit/Lore support decking using this same card pool and see if can't make two decks with even a modicum of a chance.

I'm going to try this expirment and let everyone kwow how it goes.


Hall of Beorn

The Grey Company

"To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all."
—Oscar Wilde


#25 danpoage

danpoage

    Member

  • Members
  • 279 posts

Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:57 AM

Here is the Lore/Spirit support deck that I will pair with the Tactics/Leadership deck above to see if it is possible to make effective decks for Into Ithilien using a limited card pool.

 

Spirit/Lore Support Deck (with limited card pool)

 

Heroes:

Eleanor

Denethor

Glorfindel (Core)

 

Allies: 22

Henemarth Riversong x1

Gleowine x2

Erebor Hammersmith x2

Silvan Tracker (Dead Marshes AP) x3

Mirkwood Runner (Return to Mirkwood AP) x3

Miner of the Iron Hills x2

Ithilien Tracker (HoN) x3

Master of Lore (HoN) x3

Daugther of Nimrodel x1

Hunter of Lamedon (HoN) x2

 

Attachments: 12

Unexpected Courage x1

A Burning Brand (Conflict at Carrock AP) x3

Protector of Lorien x2

Self Preservation x1

Ranger Spikes (HoN) x3

Blood of Numenor (HoN) x2

 

Events: 16

A Test of Will x2

Hasty Stroke x2

Galadhrim's Greeting x2

Dwarven Tomb x1

Stand and Fight x2

Lorien's Wealth x1

Radagast's Cunning x3

Secret Paths x3


Hall of Beorn

The Grey Company

"To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all."
—Oscar Wilde


#26 Narsil0420

Narsil0420

    Member

  • Members
  • 664 posts

Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:06 PM

After a lot of tries with various strategies, the Three Hunters come through!

Strider/Gimli/Legolas with ranger spikes, peeking at the encounter deck, and pleanty of eagles won the day.

I was trying to get a secrecy strategy to work with Glorfindel(S),Legolas and Thalin but just couldn't quite make it. Mostly due to lack of healing.

I'm still convinced that a secrecy approach could work well with this scenario but you have to have Hands Upon the Bow to make it work.



#27 Raven1015

Raven1015

    Member

  • Members
  • 496 posts

Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:56 PM

I really like this discussion about difficulty, and balancing it for experienced vs. new players. I feel like it is something that has come up many times. I feel like it wouldn't be too difficult to include with each quest, or at least with the big expansions some type of "easy mode", even if it's something like "remove the following cards from the encounter deck". On the other hand, for those who are reluctant to buy HoN because of difficulty, I'll be honest, the quests are definitely difficult, but I agree with those who are saying that it is possible to beat them without having the entire card pool available. A lot of times we may find ourselves crediting our victories to having more powerful cards, but its also the case that the more you play this game and talk about it and read about it, the better you become (which is why I disagree with those who say that the game is mostly luck). So while that may be a double strike against new players, if they are willing to give the game a chance and invest some time into it, the difficulty will ease with practice. I think it would be an interesting challenge to construct a deck with an older pool of cards and see if it can beat the HoN quests. 


Check out my LOTR LCG blog: talesfromthecards.wordpress.com

Listen to The Grey Company podcast: greycompanypodcast.wordpress.com


#28 richsabre

richsabre

    Tea Drinker of the West

  • Members
  • 4,835 posts

Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:40 PM

Raven1015 said:

I really like this discussion about difficulty, and balancing it for experienced vs. new players. I feel like it is something that has come up many times. I feel like it wouldn't be too difficult to include with each quest, or at least with the big expansions some type of "easy mode",

ironic that ffg are doing the exact opposite- making add on cards to make quests harder…..though i agree with you. ive seen alot of players give up and go because of the difficulty (in the early game)

rich


My Deviantart profile. Infrared Art http://richsabre.deviantart.com/

My Portfolio http://richardbyers.portfoliobox.me/

 


#29 Glaurung

Glaurung

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,167 posts

Posted 21 December 2012 - 11:35 PM

Raven1015 said:

I really like this discussion about difficulty, and balancing it for experienced vs. new players. I feel like it is something that has come up many times. I feel like it wouldn't be too difficult to include with each quest, or at least with the big expansions some type of "easy mode", even if it's something like "remove the following cards from the encounter deck". On the other hand, for those who are reluctant to buy HoN because of difficulty, I'll be honest, the quests are definitely difficult, but I agree with those who are saying that it is possible to beat them without having the entire card pool available. A lot of times we may find ourselves crediting our victories to having more powerful cards, but its also the case that the more you play this game and talk about it and read about it, the better you become (which is why I disagree with those who say that the game is mostly luck). So while that may be a double strike against new players, if they are willing to give the game a chance and invest some time into it, the difficulty will ease with practice. I think it would be an interesting challenge to construct a deck with an older pool of cards and see if it can beat the HoN quests. 

Yes i always was for the system when players can change difficult by themself. I play this game long time and my friend also so for us most of the quest is boring to play cose we win all the time! I like to play for example Hunt for Gollum but problem is to easy for 2 or 3 players so we never play this quest anymore. Hope we will get some nightmare pack for SOM cycle so we can play old quests again with challenge.

We love HON!!! This level of difficulty we really waiting for long time.


Wizard is never late.......

 

Glaurung playtrough LOTR LCG on youtube :

http://www.youtube.com/user/olegyd   


#30 kennoastic

kennoastic

    Member

  • Members
  • 24 posts

Posted 22 December 2012 - 10:18 AM

To make it harder, just add 1 more card during staging.

Still to easy? Add 1 more card, and so on till you reach desired difficulty.



#31 Glaurung

Glaurung

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,167 posts

Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:51 PM

kennoastic said:

To make it harder, just add 1 more card during staging.

Still to easy? Add 1 more card, and so on till you reach desired difficulty.

The problem is reveal extra cards is doesn work.  We play this game long time already and you think we didn try this very first solution what can come in your mind?

Balance of the game is really fragile and 1 more card is easy destroy you special in begin.


Wizard is never late.......

 

Glaurung playtrough LOTR LCG on youtube :

http://www.youtube.com/user/olegyd   


#32 kennoastic

kennoastic

    Member

  • Members
  • 24 posts

Posted 22 December 2012 - 10:42 PM

Glaurung said:

kennoastic said:

 

To make it harder, just add 1 more card during staging.

Still to easy? Add 1 more card, and so on till you reach desired difficulty.

 

 

The problem is reveal extra cards is doesn work.  We play this game long time already and you think we didn try this very first solution what can come in your mind?

Balance of the game is really fragile and 1 more card is easy destroy you special in begin.

sure it works. the solution is easy because it's good.
sometimes it seems to me that people want really hard quests but they never want to lose. a hard quest should feel like a real victory when you finally beat it after losing some times :)

i agree adding cards for 1 player the balance can be too hard to maintain. but for more players, especially 4, adding 1 card in staging is just 25% more cards in a 4-player game as opposed to 100% more when playing solo.



#33 Ellareth

Ellareth

    Member

  • Members
  • 168 posts

Posted 23 December 2012 - 11:25 AM

kennoastic said:

Glaurung said:

 

kennoastic said:

 

To make it harder, just add 1 more card during staging.

Still to easy? Add 1 more card, and so on till you reach desired difficulty.

 

 

The problem is reveal extra cards is doesn work.  We play this game long time already and you think we didn try this very first solution what can come in your mind?

Balance of the game is really fragile and 1 more card is easy destroy you special in begin.

 

 

sure it works. the solution is easy because it's good.
sometimes it seems to me that people want really hard quests but they never want to lose. a hard quest should feel like a real victory when you finally beat it after losing some times :)

i agree adding cards for 1 player the balance can be too hard to maintain. but for more players, especially 4, adding 1 card in staging is just 25% more cards in a 4-player game as opposed to 100% more when playing solo.

 

But that is like giving AI extra money or units in games like Civilization or Total War, or cranking up your experience requirement to next level in MMORPG.

By tougher challenge gamers meant improved AI or better quest/content, not stacks after stacks of units or hours after hours of grinding.

 



#34 Glaurung

Glaurung

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,167 posts

Posted 26 December 2012 - 05:29 AM

I made it solo. 86 points. But was lucky a lot. Crazy difficult quest i love it!!!


Wizard is never late.......

 

Glaurung playtrough LOTR LCG on youtube :

http://www.youtube.com/user/olegyd   


#35 Hannibal_pjv

Hannibal_pjv

    Member

  • Members
  • 162 posts

Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:55 AM

Well in multiplayer we have in every deck spirit hero and in every deck there is maximum number of changeling cards…

So Lore/spirit, Tacktic/spirit, Leadership/spirit Spirit/something is normal way of buiding decks against heavy treachery decks… This reguires guite many core sets, but is very viable way of making good multiplayer decks :-)

 



#36 GrandSpleen

GrandSpleen

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,306 posts

Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:33 PM

Ouch… my first experience with this quest tonight was painful.  I was reminded of Journey Down the Anduin -- instead of a troll, you get a couple of Southron Companies in the first turn.  But there's no sneaking around those Companies, so the standard strategy for JDtA (low starting threat and build allies) isn't going to work here.  Oh, and here, have some threat in the staging area.  Maybe we'll see a hero in this cycle who can swap out the active location under certain conditions -- game changer for the early part of this quest.

 

 



#37 revolution.hk

revolution.hk

    Member

  • Members
  • 21 posts

Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:01 PM

At least Into Ithilien make me consider cards I've never considered is viable.

At this moment I am thinking of Thicket of Spears with Hama, Out of the Wild, Shadow of the Past and a whole lot of other cards allowing encounter deck manipulation.

The player cards are becoming very strong that makes nearly all of previous scenarios too easily, at least this is a challenge instead of beating the scenario ten minutes after it come out and wait for next one.



#38 Glaurung

Glaurung

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,167 posts

Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:02 AM

revolution.hk said:

At least Into Ithilien make me consider cards I've never considered is viable.

At this moment I am thinking of Thicket of Spears with Hama, Out of the Wild, Shadow of the Past and a whole lot of other cards allowing encounter deck manipulation.

The player cards are becoming very strong that makes nearly all of previous scenarios too easily, at least this is a challenge instead of beating the scenario ten minutes after it come out and wait for next one.

Agree with you 100%!!!


Wizard is never late.......

 

Glaurung playtrough LOTR LCG on youtube :

http://www.youtube.com/user/olegyd   


#39 Stenun

Stenun

    Member

  • Members
  • 265 posts

Posted 07 January 2013 - 06:43 AM

The problem that I think many are missing, though, is that Into Ithilien is too reliant on luck.

Not just hard cards like the Mumak (which I have no problems with but question its inclusion in an apparently "Difficulty 4" scenarion) but broken cards like Blocking Wards.  If Blocking Wargs is the last card in the scenario deck, it's game over.  Not "it suddenly gets a lot harder", the game enters an infinite loop.  Even the idea of Blocking Wargs is ridiculous - wound every questing character and there are four copies of the card in the deck.  How many characters can take all four without dying or healing?

This is a different play experience from the difficulty of the Mumak - it's not difficult, it's just cheesey.  There's no skill involved, no tactics, just luck.  I would happily take out all four copies of Blocking Wargs out of the deck in exchange for 2 more Mumaks.

 

I have no problem with genuine difficulty but Into Ithilien is not it.



#40 Narsil0420

Narsil0420

    Member

  • Members
  • 664 posts

Posted 07 January 2013 - 07:31 AM

I don't think this scenario is "unfair" or purely luck based. If you're having trouble with really difficult treachery cards, remember that we have ways of dealing with bad treachery cards.

I just had a great game with Imrahil/Eleanor/Boromir(New) where I scored 86 and it would have been ruined by Blocking Wargs if I didn't have Eleanor and Test of Will.

We also have Denethor, Out of the Wild, Shed Some Light, etc. to help avoid Treachery cards.

I've had the hardest time with 2 players against Into Ithilien. My brother and I played 6 games in a row and lost every one. I simply take this as an awesome challenge, re-tool our decks and get back in there!






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS