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OK maybe I missed this earlier… Corporations DO win, right?


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#21 Messenger

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:13 PM

Talamare said:

Someone did a study of 1500 games

Runner won 55% of the time, Corp 45%

They also broke it down by each runner vs each corp

Criminal won 62% of his games
Anarch won 52%
Shaper won 48%

HB won 50% of its games
Jinteki won 41%
NBN won 39%
Weyland won 51%

I have to point out:

The early game favors the Runner. The Corp has no defenses and is in a rush to protect multiple targets. In addition, he also has to set up additional servers that the Runner can hit. It is only by creating more stuff for the Runner to raid that the Corp can win. And though the Corp starts the game defenseless (which is why he gets the first turn), the Runner starts the game ready to attack (you don't need icebreakers to steal agendas).

The late game favors the Corp. Surviving the early onslaught, he'll probably have his economy up and running afterwards. Rezzing ICE is a one-time expense and it stays up and running, while the Runner has to pay his icebreakers each time he uses them. By then, the Corp will have built up multiple layers of ICE on each server, while the Runner has to struggle with marshalling enough resources to penetrate the Corp's defenses.

The reason for the statistics above is that Criminals, HB and Weyland have advantages when it comes to speed.

Criminals have fast cash (Bank Job, Easy Mark), can cripple the Corp (Account Siphon) early in the game, can expose or evade ICE (Forged Activation Orders, Inside Job, Lemuria Codecracker, Sneakdoor Beta). Those are cards that allow them to run frequently in the early game, even if they lack icebreakers.

On the other hand, both Anarchs and Shapers need time to build up. Anarchs need to organize their programs, whlie Shapers need to gather the resources to ultimately overpower the Corp's defenses. They still have the inherent early game advantage of the Runner side (and cards like Demolition Run, Medium and The Maker's Eye), but their stuff doesn't support it as much as the Criminals' do.

Weyland has huge economic advantages. Their ICE are pretty solid, especially where they can be advanced. When it comes to bagging the Runner after tagging, they can win the game decisively and suddenly thanks to Scorched Earth.

Haas-Bioroid's 1st identity (currently) gives the faction a good second place in economic advantage. Their bioroid ICE are cheaper to rez because of their penalty while being crippling in effect (brain damage, program destruction) or at least just straight up stopping the runner (almost all have the "End the run." subroutine). Their ability to do extra actions really helps (though I still think Shipment to Mirrormorph is sub-par), especially when it's time to rush the scoring of an Agenda. Lastly, they don't really do traces which is actually in their favor since it forces them to save their credits for other things.

NBN is supposed to be the agenda advancing specialist among the Corp factions, but I think that their ICE being mostly non-lethal and their lack of money generation hinders them. Jinteki really, really, really needs to coordinate its ICE for their defenses to be effective. While their net damage and trap-laying can be lethal, most of their ICE can't end runs. Ambush and Project Junebug are nasty, but not as decisive as Scorched Earth.

TLDR version: Criminals win most because they push their early game advantage. HB and Weyland succeed the most because they can go faster than other factions in setting up defenses and starting to work on their victory conditions early on.



#22 Messenger

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:43 PM

Rince said:

Now that we have quite a few general insights on the matter at hand, I though I would ask some specific questions to keep the ball rolling:

1. What is considered to be the optimum ICE count in a 45-49 card deck?

2. Approximately how many cards do experienced players put into their decs to keep their in-game economy going?

3. What are the most commonly used card for credit economy?

4. What is considered a good Ambush/Asset and/or Operation ratio?

Now, I do realize that the answers to these questions can vary greatly depending on the underlying strategy, but I am sure they can be answered in general. I would also love to see the above numbers tailored for specific decks and strategies.

So, if you have the time, I wold love to see y'all's insights.

1. The rulebook recommends at least 17 for a 45 card deck; I agree. You can get away with that minimum if you pack cards that draw, search or filter your R&D (Anonymous Tip, Aggressive Negotiation, Precognition, even Accelerated Beta Test for HB). Note that such cards can usually also be used to bring you non-ICE cards when you need them.

Not having enough ICE is bad but there's also such a thing as too much. Remember that adding more and more ICE to a server gets progressively more expensive. Having too much ICE in a deck will slow you down and eat up resources. 

2. It would depend on your identity and the other cards in the deck. Weyland and HB can get away with using less money-making cards than Jinteki and NBN because their identities (and ICE for Weyland) also make money. You also have to differentiate between fast but limited (Beanstalk Royalties, Hedge Fund) and slow but unlimited (PAD Campaign, Melange Mining Corp) credit generation; I'd say pack a lot of the former and a little less of the latter.

Also consider keeping your costs low. Don't focus on ICE or cards that are expensive to rez or use.

3. I disagree with AndrewRogue; Beanstalk Royalties are easy to use outside of Weyland (low influence cost) and is in fact easier to use than Hedge Fund; the Fund requires you to have 5 credits in order to use, while the Royalties don't. The different in effect between them is only 1 credit. It's wiser to be prepared for worse times than better, and you're likely to have less than 5 credits most of the time than 5 or more.

4. You shouldn't think of them in terms of ratios. Rather, you should look at assets and operations in terms of what they can do. Also, given the requirement for a minimum of agenda points in a deck and the number of ICE you need to include, you won't have much choice in the ratio you select.



#23 Messenger

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:18 PM

Clarification on my answer for #3: If you can include both Beanstalk Royalties and Hedge Fund in your deck, then go for it if you want. But if you have to choose between those two, I suggest the Royalties.



#24 Silent Requiem

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:03 AM

Messenger said:

I have to point out:

 

The early game favors the Runner. The Corp has no defenses and is in a rush to protect multiple targets. In addition, he also has to set up additional servers that the Runner can hit. It is only by creating more stuff for the Runner to raid that the Corp can win. And though the Corp starts the game defenseless (which is why he gets the first turn), the Runner starts the game ready to attack (you don't need icebreakers to steal agendas).

The late game favors the Corp. Surviving the early onslaught, he'll probably have his economy up and running afterwards. Rezzing ICE is a one-time expense and it stays up and running, while the Runner has to pay his icebreakers each time he uses them. By then, the Corp will have built up multiple layers of ICE on each server, while the Runner has to struggle with marshalling enough resources to penetrate the Corp's defenses.

 

Slight, but important, disagreement.

Early game favours the runner. Mid game favours the corp. Late game favours the runner.

In the early game, the corp has insufficient assets to protect everything, let alone properly advance agendas. The corp is focusing on keeping the runner out of central servers, and building up enough credits to actually do something useful.

In the mid game, the corp has protected the relevant central servers and has at least one decent remote server, as well as some credits. The runner, having focused on attacking the corp early, is now unable to access anything, and is scrambling to assemble their full rig and generate the credits necessary to actually break into the servers.

In the late game, the runner has a full rig, and credits to spend. Keep in mind that the cost/benefit ratio of ICE drops off dramatically as more pieces are added to a server, so the runner is always going to catch up to the corp, given time. In most late games, the runner can actually break into any server they chose, so the corp is on the back foot. Instead, the corp must focus on misdirection and tricks, unsually by tempting the runner into making unproductive runs, and then scoring something while the runner rebuilds their credit pool.



#25 AndrewRogue

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:25 AM

@Messenger

You are right regarding the relative value difference with Beanstalk Royalties. I just think the added Influence cost (even though it is low) makes it unfeasible for most decks.

And you are dead on regarding the late-game dynamic. Once a runner has their rig set-up, about the only thing that can really keep them out of a server they want to get into is well-timed Corporate Troubleshooter.



#26 Talamare

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:50 AM

He updated it, its up from 1500 games to 6000

New Scores - Corp (48%) and Runner (52%)

Runner
Anarch - 52%
Shaper -  46%
Criminal - 58%

Corp
NBN - 48%
Jinteki - 40%
Haas Bioroid - 49%
Weyland - 53%
 

Oh and
62% of Weylands victories comes from Flatlining the runner
61% of Jinteki victories are from flatling
32% of NBN
7% of Haas Bioroid

 

Important Note - None of the Corporations beat Criminal, He wins more games against each one than he loses.

For example Weyland Win/Lose Chart
vs Criminal - 44% Wins
vs Anarch - 53% Wins
vs Shaper - 62% Wins

 

http://84.205.248.92...d/slagview.aspx



#27 Messenger

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:50 AM

Silent Requiem said:

Slight, but important, disagreement.

Early game favours the runner. Mid game favours the corp. Late game favours the runner.

In the late game, the runner has a full rig, and credits to spend. Keep in mind that the cost/benefit ratio of ICE drops off dramatically as more pieces are added to a server, so the runner is always going to catch up to the corp, given time. In most late games, the runner can actually break into any server they chose, so the corp is on the back foot. Instead, the corp must focus on misdirection and tricks, unsually by tempting the runner into making unproductive runs, and then scoring something while the runner rebuilds their credit pool.

Noted, good sir.

I'm not sure I completely agree in the sense that if the Runner has completed his setup by then, so shoud the Corp have done the same. I see it as more of a fair fight between them.

I'm not sure I completely disagree in the sense that the Corp should already have scored some agendas earlier and should be aggressively pursuing his remaining ones. Long story short, the Corp should have won already.

Even if the Runner has an edge over the Corp, I don't see it as that great between them to make things really unfair. The game may encourage the Runner to be aggressive, but the Corp still sets the tempo. Unless peek cards like Infiltration and Lemuria Codecracker are used, it's not just a question of beating ICE but finding the agendas to begin with, and wrong guesses on the Runner's part can be fatal. The Corp may have to race to avoid running out of cards before he can score 7 agenda points but the Runner has to race the Corp and ****** the agenda before it can be scored. At the same time, losing by running out of cards remains very rare even when both the Runner and the Corp accelerates it.

Lastly, TBH from personal experience, I tend to sweat more when playing the Runner than when playing the Corp.



#28 Damocles346

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:44 PM

I have played the Corp in probably 80% of the games I have played, and I would agree with what was being said earlier, the Corp player needs to be able to bluff. A game is pretty much all sewn up if you can lure the runner into a trap near mid or end game and suck them dry of cards or credits. At that point you will either have won from killing the runner, or you will have enough breathing room to play and score that last agenda you need. Thus I also agree that it is probably more difficult to play the Corp, but when you win… oh so satisfying. :)



#29 Messenger

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:37 PM

AndrewRogue said:

@Messenger

You are right regarding the relative value difference with Beanstalk Royalties. I just think the added Influence cost (even though it is low) makes it unfeasible for most decks.

I'm willing to pay the influence cost, especially where the alternative is a card I can't use when my credit pool becomes even the littlest bit tight. Even with the other out-of-faction cards I want in my deck, the Royalties remains an easy fit.






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