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Tie Defender Values?


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#21 magadizer

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:39 AM

Also, you never cited the source of your stats for these ships. I am genuinely curious, as a big SW fan. Also I ask again, according to the same source you are using,  how does the Falcon's shield rating stack up?


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#22 Surtur

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:06 PM

Mako13 said:

So, after comments from others, and comparisons to other fighters and ships in Wave 2, here's my proposal for the Tie Defender:

Attack = 3

Defense = 4

Hull = 4 (since shields need to be dumbed down to make the fighter playable with others in the game, this stat gets a bump.  With a 20 RU hull, its armor is as robust as an X-Wings, which has a rating of 3.  Increasing its Hull rating of 4, to account for the loss of half of what its shield rating should be seems a reasonable alternative, at least to me)

Shields = 4

The combined Hull and Shield rating above gives it about 60% of the protection of the Millenium Falcon, in both X-Wing, and from stats found on the internet, in independent sources.

Clearly, with those ratings, it is a formidable space superiority fighter.

Points costs, without upgrades is 33, not including any special weapons, abilities, or even a pilot.

Only Skill 7 pilots, or above may use this fighter, making the true basic fighter cost 40 - 42, depending upon the pilots' skill (e.g. 7 - 9).

Fixed forward Ion Cannons cost 2 points (5 for the Y-Wing with a 360 degree arc, so 2 points for the 90 degree forward arc seems reasonable to me).

Other special weapons costs and skills are per those available to the Empire (and Proton Torps of the Rebels).  Can be fitted with Concussion Missiles, or Proton Torpedoes.  Can also be fitted with a Tractor Beam (see below).

Not sure on the points cost, or ability of the Tractor Beam, but suggest we try Range 2 (supposedly its range is limited), can only be used for a short time before recharging (two turns, perhaps, and then off for 2 turns, before use again?), permits the Tie-D to keep the targeted starfighter from moving at all in the next two turns (if hit, the targeted spacefighter must remain in place - 75% chance of that happening, e.g. to be on target with the tractor beam, and no chance for the targeted vessel to evade (simplistic rules option).  Or, optionally, 3 x attempts to use it [using 3 Red Attack Dice - everything but blanks work], and targeted fighter gets to roll Evade dice, as usual, to try to keep from being targeted.  Once entrapped, no further evade rolls are permitted).  Does no permanent damage to a target.  Use of the Tractor Beam doesn't count as an action, so the Tie Defender may also fire on the fighter targeted by the Tractor Beam, regardless of whether it is effective, or not.  Due to the power required to employ the Tractor Beam, power to the Tie Defender's shields is reduced by Two Points, when it is in use.  Points cost = 5, so similar to the Ion Cannon for the Rebels. 

So, for 50 points, you can produce a nice, heavily armed fighter.  That works well, since they usually work in pairs, so two for a 100 point force should be interesting vs. what the Rebels can field against it.

Clearly, the Tie Defender is the ultimate space superiority fighter of its time.

Nope.



#23 Surtur

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:13 PM

Norsehound said:

When I mean 'fragile' I'm talking in terms of hull. Compared to other ships it's size (like the B-Wing), the TIE/D isn't much more robust than a normal TIE fighter. It's not armored for punishment like the B-Wing is. It has enough shielding for dogfighting purposes (2? Like an X-Wing?) but when it's unshielded a B-Wing could blow it up with one pass. An egg with a sledgehammer.

In a hypothetical TIE/D v B-Wing match, the B-Wing would be looking to absorb punishment long enough to get the TIE/D in it's sights and hammer it with everything it has. The TIE/D on the other hand would try to take as few hits as possible and stay out of the B-Wing's forward arc. Similar perhaps to the current X v TIE match but with higher firepower values.  Maybe I should amend my comment on the movement dial and allow the B-Wing little punishment when it's making short turns… it's not speedy but it can turn pretty well. The TIE/D on the other hand, being faster than the TIE/LN, would have fewer 1 manuvers and will be frequently overshooting the B-Wing.

I wonder if that 'evade 4, 1 hull 1 shield' would work for the T-Wing… I'd have to fly against them again to know how obnoxious they were in that regard. They were supposed to replace A-Wings but never did…. maybe because they were too fragile?

I have never heard of the Tie Defender being fragile by any standard. Wookieepedia seems to agree.

http://starwars.wiki.../TIE/D_Defender



#24 Norsehound

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:56 PM

A tractor beam upgrade I came up with was as an action to target a ship, rolling dice equal to the skill rating. If greater than the agility value of the target, the target is forced to make a forward movement next turn. A fighter could still throddle change but it is locked in forward motion, just as they behaved in the TIE Fighter computer game.

Again, Ideally I don't think the TIE/D should be the most significant starfighter of the game. It should be a heavy fighter, on par with the B-Wing, but not the King Hell God Emperor Starfighter of Death. That's the Missile Boat.

 

Personally I want to think the TIE/D is a little more robust myself but there needs to be balance somewhere. Between the B-Wing and the TIE/D I felt the latter was more fragile than the former… probably around X-Wing levels. It didn't take much to die after your sheilds were gone anyway….



#25 Mako13

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:15 PM

The link to the stats for the Tie Defender was posted on the first page, but is also posted above by another person.

As you can see, it is a very formidable fighter.

While you may disagree with my methodology for the points determination formula I use, my Tie Defender stats are neither arbitrary nor subjective, since they fit within the model I posted on the FFG site here, below.  I offered an alternative formula for fighter points calculations that fits superbly with the current fighters in the game, allowing for tweaks the FFG staff and playtesters may have used for the game.

http://www.fantasyfl...=734236&efpag=3

With the formula provided, all of the stats for the 1st Wave of fighers can be matched, point for point, in a very simple, and straightforward fashion. 

The formula is not very complex, but I submit that is why it may be the correct one.

I am willing to concede that the Tie Defender may possibly be undervalued points wise, but only time will tell if that is true, with a bit of playtesting.

I can say the same about Han and the Millenium Falcon, which has a pilot skill rating of 9, and the following stats, e.g. 3 1 8 5 (for a total of 13 points on defense), and the player controlling it may reroll all Attack dice, if desired, for a total cost of only 46 points.  That leaves enough points to add on missiles, or special abilities cards, which will no doubt improve its 1 point Agility rating.

For the Falcon's shields and hull rating, I can't recall where I got the values from, but doing a quick Yahoo search, they immediately pop up on multiple sites, so they seem to be pretty standard for Star Wars.  Just type in the Millenium Falcon, SBD, and RU into your favorite search browser, and you'll come up with plenty of examples.

As mentioned, I rated the Tie D as approximately 60% of the total defense of the MF (8 vs. 13 Hull and Shields points in the game), which seems to be very reasonable to me, for a heavy, space superiority fighter.

Perhaps a good test would be to pit a 50, or 50+ point Tie Defender against the Millenium Falcon, to see which comes out on top.  Seems to me they might be a decent match for one another.

Not sure what Missile Boats are like in the Star Wars universe, but that might be a good matchup as well, but possibly even more conjectural, since we have no indication on how the FFG staff will go with that.

 

 

 



#26 Mako13

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:32 PM

Wasn't sure what to do with the Tractor Beam.

Apparently, the Millenium Falcon had one at one time too, so it'll be interesting to see if that is given as an option.

In one of the postings online, I saw where it could actually be used to help the Tie-D turn tighter, while locked on to its target.

Seems to me that the roll to hit, vs. roll to evade for each side would make using it a bit more fun, and challenging.

Might need to permit the targeted fighter to drift forward, like with the Ion Cannon rule, at a speed of 1, just for fun, but prevent it from making any turns, or other maneuvers.

Also wasn't sure about the use and duration of it. 

No one would want to use it instead of an attack, unless the effects would last for several turns, in order to provide an advantage, since not being able to make an attack on the first turn of its use reduces the effectiveness considerably.  That's why I went with it not counting as an action, since presumably if you are targeting and can hit a vessel with a Tractor Beam, you should also be able to hit it with weapons at the same time.

There was mention that the Tractor Beam's effectiveness was limited in duration, which is why I suggested a couple of turns, and then also added in the flaw as well.  I think using it would suck a lot of juice out of the powerplant, so the reduction in shield output seems reasonable.

Perhaps another option would be that the Tie-D can only fly Green maneuvers while using the Tractor Beam, providing for another tactical decision point as to when to use it, making it a double-edged sword.

Neither the shielding or green maneuver restriction would be an issue in a one-on-one fight, but you probably wouldn't want to use it in a swirling dogfight, where you might be targeted by other pilots.

 



#27 Ruskal

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:11 AM

Mako13 said:

I can say the same about Han and the Millenium Falcon, which has a pilot skill rating of 9, and the following stats, e.g. 3 1 8 5 (for a total of 13 points on defense), and the player controlling it may reroll all Attack dice, if desired, for a total cost of only 46 points.  That leaves enough points to add on missiles, or special abilities cards, which will no doubt improve its 1 point Agility rating.

For the Falcon's shields and hull rating, I can't recall where I got the values from, but doing a quick Yahoo search, they immediately pop up on multiple sites, so they seem to be pretty standard for Star Wars.  Just type in the Millenium Falcon, SBD, and RU into your favorite search browser, and you'll come up with plenty of examples.

As mentioned, I rated the Tie D as approximately 60% of the total defense of the MF (8 vs. 13 Hull and Shields points in the game), which seems to be very reasonable to me, for a heavy, space superiority fighter.

Perhaps a good test would be to pit a 50, or 50+ point Tie Defender against the Millenium Falcon, to see which comes out on top.  Seems to me they might be a decent match for one another.

Falcon vs Defender with your stats is far away from a decent match. I repeat (others mentioned above several times): the 4 defensive dices are way to hard, espacially for the falcon with only one. Also the falcon is less maneuverable and has a bigger base (means easier to hit). So defender will eat the falcon. Try it. Take your dices and role them. 3 dices (maybe 4 with missiles in the first round) against the four of the defender. Then take the 3 of the defender against one of the falcon. I have no doubt about the results ^^



#28 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:33 AM

Mako13 said:

The link to the stats for the Tie Defender was posted on the first page, but is also posted above by another person.

As you can see, it is a very formidable fighter.

While you may disagree with my methodology for the points determination formula I use, my Tie Defender stats are neither arbitrary nor subjective, since they fit within the model I posted on the FFG site here, below.  I offered an alternative formula for fighter points calculations that fits superbly with the current fighters in the game, allowing for tweaks the FFG staff and playtesters may have used for the game.

http://www.fantasyfl...=734236&efpag=3

With the formula provided, all of the stats for the 1st Wave of fighers can be matched, point for point, in a very simple, and straightforward fashion. 

The formula is not very complex, but I submit that is why it may be the correct one.

I am willing to concede that the Tie Defender may possibly be undervalued points wise, but only time will tell if that is true, with a bit of playtesting.

I can say the same about Han and the Millenium Falcon, which has a pilot skill rating of 9, and the following stats, e.g. 3 1 8 5 (for a total of 13 points on defense), and the player controlling it may reroll all Attack dice, if desired, for a total cost of only 46 points.  That leaves enough points to add on missiles, or special abilities cards, which will no doubt improve its 1 point Agility rating.

For the Falcon's shields and hull rating, I can't recall where I got the values from, but doing a quick Yahoo search, they immediately pop up on multiple sites, so they seem to be pretty standard for Star Wars.  Just type in the Millenium Falcon, SBD, and RU into your favorite search browser, and you'll come up with plenty of examples.

As mentioned, I rated the Tie D as approximately 60% of the total defense of the MF (8 vs. 13 Hull and Shields points in the game), which seems to be very reasonable to me, for a heavy, space superiority fighter.

Perhaps a good test would be to pit a 50, or 50+ point Tie Defender against the Millenium Falcon, to see which comes out on top.  Seems to me they might be a decent match for one another.

Not sure what Missile Boats are like in the Star Wars universe, but that might be a good matchup as well, but possibly even more conjectural, since we have no indication on how the FFG staff will go with that.

 * Just to be clear, your source for stats on the TIE/D is the Star Wars wiki?

 * Your version of the TIE/D is likely undercosted because the formula probably doesn't apply. The proposed Agility lies outside the space in which ShadowJak's regression has been demonstrated; in statistical terms, you're extrapolating to units other than those sampled without justification, which is a big no-no.

 * All the upgrades from the Millennium Falcon's booster have been spoiled, and none of them improve its agility. It will always roll 1 defense die, unless modified by range or obstructions.

 * As Ruskal notes, matching the Falcon against your starfighter wouldn't be a contest. It would be a long slog, but the Falcon would hit about 35% of the time, and the TIE/D would hit about 75% of the time. On average, the TIE would do about three times as much damage on each attack.



#29 magadizer

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:07 AM

OK, Mako13, you said:

"While you may disagree with my methodology for the points determination formula I use, my Tie Defender stats are neither arbitrary nor subjective, since they fit within the model I posted on the FFG site here, below.  I offered an alternative formula for fighter points calculations that fits superbly with the current fighters in the game, allowing for tweaks the FFG staff and playtesters may have used for the game."

So, here's  your relevant part of your "methodology:"

"The follow system, which is very similar to yours, seems to work well for the two Tie models, and the X-Wing.  It also works for the Y-Wing, but only with a bit more substantial tweaking.  Still, given that the values for even the Y-Wing are consistent, I think it might be valid, or close as well.

The formula is as follows:

2 Points for each fighter hull

Then, 1 Point each for each of the following: Attack Value; Defense Value (Agility); Hull Value

5 Points for each Shield (seemed a bit high to me at first, but works.  I didn't try increasing the Hull values and reducing the Shield values)

1 Point each for the Pilots' Skill Rating Value, e.g. Skill of 2 = 2, Skill of 4 = 4, Skill of 9 = 9, etc.

Using the above values, we get to within one point each for the Tie, Tie Advanced, and X-Wing values given in the game, so I think that works fairly well.  With the following minor modifiers, it works spot on:

+1 Cost Point for the Academy Tie Fighter Pilot (presumably, as already mentioned, a minor tweak to keep 9 x Tie fighters from being built in a 100 Point force, so the max is 8 x Tie Figther pilots, with a points cost of 12 each, instead of the 11 points calculated using the formula).

-1 Cost Point for Tie Advanced and X-Wing fighters, if their Pilot Skill rating is 4 or less.  Presumably, since they have no special abilities.

For the Y-Wing, as mentioned, the above formula doesn't fit the standard.  However, since it is the only Agility 1 (Defense Rating) spacefighter in the game thus far, I submit that a major tweak was made to it, that still fits with the original formula.

After running the numbers, I believe that is the case.  Use the standard formula listed above, for a base value, but then make a major adjustment, due to its lack of Agility, and also due to its slower speed (unless using a Red maneuver), by subtracting 8 from the final points total.  Depending upon the pilot chosen, this results in either a 25% reduction in capability for the best rated pilot, and a 33% reduction for the worst pilot.  If this formula is followed, the point values for the Y-Wings match exactly with those in the game for the rated pilots (e.g. 8 points less than the calculated value, for all of the pilot variants of the Y-Wing)."

OK, so in summary you created, yes, an "arbitratry and subjective" points system. Why do I say this? Your system only accounts for 3 of 4 ships in the current game. Then by your own anaylsis you have to adjust the points values of most of the ships in this system, which is not inclusive of a quarter of the game.

Yes, there are "tweaks" or exceptions to the rule, even in the regression model posted by the infamous ShadowJak (which is I believe his preferred title). But your system is all exceptions and no rule.

Again, go ahead and play with this model on the table. I honestly want to hear how it does. But I can't see anyone else wanting to play with or against a ship with this set of stats unless they are the kind of person who used to play nintendo only with the Game Genie plugged in.

 

 


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#30 Jetfire

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:39 AM

My take on the Tie D simply from a logical understanding of the game mechanics puts it as follows

 

3 Attack:  Roughly the firepower of an x-wing or b-wing, yes it is more, but 4 dice is too much really

3 Defend:  Maneuverable as an A-wing or Interceptor, that is cooking no matter how you slice it and I'm not sure it deserves it

3 Hull:  It isn't really heavy armor but it isn't an A-wing either

3 Sheild:  Above average shields for a fighter.

 

‘Squad Points’ = 2 + ‘Pilot Skill’ + (‘Weapon’ – 2) x 8 + (‘Agility’ – 2) x 8 + (‘Hull’ – 3) x 4.25 + ‘Shields’ x 4.5

 

Considering a Jendon skill 6 pilot that puts us at 38-39 pts which seems fair.

Considering a Yorr skill 4 pilot that puts us at 34-35 pts which seems fair.

 

Onyx 1 and 2 in a squad should be a force to be reckonned with and with 74 pts to the pair before upgrades I think you can make the case for this design.


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#31 yoink101

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:23 AM

That seems much closer to reasonable, although I still think it's bringing up the power creep a bit.  My issue with the expanded universe is demonstrated by the XJ-Xwing.  It's like the x-wing, only it's faster, tougher, more maneuverable, has more shields, more guns and more torpedoes.

 

I hugely appreciate that the developers at ffg have stuck solidly with the time frame represented by the trilogy and have not tried to incorporate the seemingly impossible technological advances that took place after several thousand years of relative technological stagnation throughout the republic era.



#32 apshaiTerp

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:34 AM

Having spent much longer than I should on Wookiepedia looking at ship stats, the ship I really want to compare it to is the TIE Advanced.  It obviously has more firepower, and while the numbers say it has basically double the firepower of a standard TIE Fighter, I think 3 is about right, given the game's scale itself.
For agility, it has more powerful engines than a regular TIE, and is faster, but it's not noticeably more agile than the TIE Interceptor, so 3 again seems right, not to mention the copious discussion about how broken 4 agility is in the current system.
For Hull and Shields, I'm inclined to go with 4 Hull and 2 Shields.  The Defender Hull was made with a similar allow as the bomber, just not as hard, and I can't find anything to support the shields being more powerful than Vader's TIE Advanced, which was after all the test platform for most of the Defender technology.

That being said, here's where I would slot it:
3 Attack

3 Agility

4 Hull

2 Shields

Actions:  Interceptor + TL, which already makes this an incredibly powerful craft.  SO looking forward to Targetting Computers with the Aces release.

Upgrades:  EPT, Missile, Ion Cannons

 

Ship cost for rookie pilots:  I don't know.  I imagine you'd need to playtest to see where it really fit, but I would put it in the low 40s.  High enough that you can't run 3, but maybe two of these guys decked out.

 

Also, +1 on power creep, this ship was even in the old PC game the definition of broken.



#33 apshaiTerp

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:37 AM

Really, sticking within the existing mechanics, this should feel just as broken as giving Fel TL, shields, missiles, and a turret.  Oh, the shenanigans I could pull with that setup....



#34 Millennium Falsehood

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:52 AM

I think where the TIE Defender should really excel is in the speed and pilot skill department. Historically it sucked in the maneuverability department, but it could outrun nearly anything the Rebels threw at it (think of it like an ME-262).

 

My own take on it is such:

 

Attack: 3

Agility: 3

Hull: 3

Shields: 2

 

Pilot skill: 5 - 9

 

Action bar: Focus, Evade, Barrel Roll, Target Lock

 

Maneuver dial: 2BL, 2TL, 2F(g), 2BR, 2TR, 3TL, 3BL(g), 3F(g), 3BR(g), 3TL, 4(g), 5(g), 5K®

 

Upgrade bar: EPT, Cannon, Sensor, Missile

 

Additionally, I'd include this as a Modification card:

 

Tractor Beam (5)

 

Defender's agility is reduced by 1.

 

This would be an awesome card because it means Wedge is no longer the focus of Imperial attacks if you're a Rebel, and Wedge can still be useful because his skill is native to his card and he is an extremely highly skilled pilot (and I'm pretty sure it would stack on Wedge anyway). And on the other hand, Imperial ships can now share the same ability as Wedge. The cost may actually be a bit low for this card; I would have to play it to see.


Edited by Millennium Falsehood, 16 October 2013 - 11:22 AM.

Rebel Alliance: 7 X-wings, 4 Y-wings, 4 A-wings, 1 YT-1300, 2 HWK-290s, 3 B-wings, 1 GR-75, 1 CR-90

Galactic Empire: 6 TIE Fighters, 1 TIE Advanced, 2 Firespray-31s, 1 Lambda class Shuttle, 3 TIE Bombers

 

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#35 Jetfire

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:07 PM

I think where the TIE Defender should really excel is in the speed and pilot skill department. Historically it sucked in the maneuverability department, but it could outrun nearly anything the Rebels threw at it (think of it like an ME-262).

 

My own take on it is such:

 

Attack: 3

Agility: 3

Hull: 3

Shields: 2

 

Pilot skill: 5 - 9

 

Action bar: Focus, Evade, Barrel Roll, Target Lock

 

Maneuver dial: 2BL, 2TL, 2F(g), 2BR, 2TR, 3TL, 3BL(g), 3F(g), 3BR(g), 3TL, 4(g), 5(g), 5K®

 

Upgrade bar: EPT, Cannon, Sensor, Missile

 

Additionally, I'd include this as a Modification card:

 

Tractor Beam (5)

 

Defender's agility is reduced by 1.

 

This would be an awesome card because it means Wedge is no longer the focus of Imperial attacks if you're a Rebel, and Wedge can still be useful because his skill is native to his card and he is an extremely highly skilled pilot (and I'm pretty sure it would stack on Wedge anyway). And on the other hand, Imperial ships can now share the same ability as Wedge. The cost may actually be a bit low for this card; I would have to play it to see.

 

Personally I think 3/3/3/2 is where the Avenger should sit.  But with a Manuever dial similar to the Tie Interceptor but just a little worse.  The defender can then rein in stats at 3/3/3/3 but with a maneuver dial closer to the X-wing with a much higher cost.


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#36 magadizer

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:47 PM

Wow, zombie thread.
Be seeing you.

#37 Chris Maes

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:01 PM

My take on the Tie D simply from a logical understanding of the game mechanics puts it as follows

 

3 Attack:  Roughly the firepower of an x-wing or b-wing, yes it is more, but 4 dice is too much really

3 Defend:  Maneuverable as an A-wing or Interceptor, that is cooking no matter how you slice it and I'm not sure it deserves it

3 Hull:  It isn't really heavy armor but it isn't an A-wing either

3 Sheild:  Above average shields for a fighter.

 

‘Squad Points’ = 2 + ‘Pilot Skill’ + (‘Weapon’ – 2) x 8 + (‘Agility’ – 2) x 8 + (‘Hull’ – 3) x 4.25 + ‘Shields’ x 4.5

 

Considering a Jendon skill 6 pilot that puts us at 38-39 pts which seems fair.

Considering a Yorr skill 4 pilot that puts us at 34-35 pts which seems fair.

 

Onyx 1 and 2 in a squad should be a force to be reckonned with and with 74 pts to the pair before upgrades I think you can make the case for this design.

I think you got the stats right, based on my research; not sure about the points however.

 

Chris



#38 Chris Maes

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:11 PM

TIE/Avenger is really just the production version of Vader's TIE/Advanced X-1. The only real difference, statwise, that I see would be increased firepower (Attack value 3). Maybe give it a maneuver dial similar to TIE/IN.

Chris

#39 Mystic Force

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:21 PM

I don't think a tractor beam should reduce the number of evade dice but rather limit the number of evade dice. In this way low evade ships are not penalised but high evade ships are. This would be different to other things out there.

#40 Millennium Falsehood

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:08 PM

But shouldn't low-evade ships have a worse time against a tractor beam than a high-evade ship? Low-evade ships presumably have to push their engines to the limit in order to maneuver at all. I would think a tractor beam would give a low-evade ship's pilot a very bad day.


Rebel Alliance: 7 X-wings, 4 Y-wings, 4 A-wings, 1 YT-1300, 2 HWK-290s, 3 B-wings, 1 GR-75, 1 CR-90

Galactic Empire: 6 TIE Fighters, 1 TIE Advanced, 2 Firespray-31s, 1 Lambda class Shuttle, 3 TIE Bombers

 

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