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Do Normal People Matter?


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#61 Robin Graves

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 04:44 PM

Fast answer to the question.

 

Humans worth nothing for chapters like Blood Tearers, Carcharodon, Iron hands, Mortificator and those kind of chapter

Humans are what they are for most of the chapter a mass of people they have to defend against the rest of the galaxy and somtime themself.

Humans are important for chapters like the Salamenders, Ultramarines and others but right now can't tell more.

 

I think the worst chapter is the Marines Malevolent. During the 3d war for Armageddon they started shelling a refugee camp under attack by Orks. Flesh tearers aren't that bad, of course there was that time where they attacked the enemy in the front while the guard attacked the enemy from behind. The flesh tearers just ran out of enemies and then ran into the imperial guard. Oops!

Space wolves are (perhaps surprisingly) alos pro humans. Thye got really pissed off at the inquisition when they put the survivors of the 1st Armageddon war in camps.



#62 Visitor Q

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 04:44 AM

 

Please help me here.

 

This is a tricky one. The Space Wolves in particular seem to have gone through a lot of subtly different interpretations all depending on who writes about them. In the words of another player, "they can't decide whether they want to be Space Vikings, Werewolves, Loyalist World Eaters, Mary Sues, Wolverine, Monsters, Primitive Pagans, Disciplined, Feral, Serious, Humorous, Intelligent, Bestial, Super Soldiers or an awful amalgamation of all of these often contradictory things."

 

I'd say go for which of these terms you like the most - personally, my favoured version is Space Viking Super Soldiers with just a hint of Werewolves, and for their behaviour in and out of battle, as well as their reputation, I'm looking at the real world viking cliché which, imho, was the original inspiration.

 

And even the Horus Heresy novels are just one of many possible interpretations of 40k (and quite over the top compared to the Index Astartes' version of events).

 

 

 

From what I remember I believe Space Wolves primarily use an oral traditional of storytelling to preserve their Chapter history and rituals.  They are also notably not a Codex Chapter.  They also operate in quite distinct Great Companies.  When you consider this and the fact that the WH40K setting is based over 10,000 years it maybe isn’t too surprising that the Space Wolves encompass so many different characteristics.  It might simply be a case of the Chapter changing.

 

In terms of whether normal people matter.  I think the question is wrong lol!

In terms of emotional intelligence a marine has roughly the same range of emotions as a normal human.  So there is no reason for them not to have some empathy towards normal humans.  The main barriers are cultural and institutional. 

But therein lies the rub.  A Marine in the 41st millennia is only really going to get the chance to talk to military personnel and even then most of these will be officers

 

In this context then ordinary humans do matter, as invariably they will be viewed as a military asset or even in some cases an ally.  However they will only very rarely be seen as equal in military value to a marine.

 

However most Space Marines by and large have only a limited conception of normal people or what it is they actually do. 

 

For example imagine a random baker working on an average peaceful world in the Imperium. 

He works for a head baker who pays him minimum wage, he has wife and 2 kids and he knows nothing of space travel the warp or xenos.  He belongs to a guild to which he pays a tithe and another tithe to the local Temple.  Finally he has flour tax to pay the local governor.  He has a house he has a mortgage on.  Every summer he attends the local carnival.  His mother in-law husband died so she has moved in and is giving him grief.

 

Now compare this to a fairly regular marine, say a Nova Marine. 

 

Now tell me what do they possibly have to talk about?

 

It’s not so much a case of the baker not mattering so much as the Nova Marine simply not understanding what the baker does or why he does it.  Why does he put up with his boss? Why does he waste so much time drinking or on idle chatter? Why doesn’t he work harder? Why isn’t he pushing himself to be better?

 

Empathy is based on understanding.  This is why some Chapters like Salamanders or White Consuls will think normal people matter and will understand the fraction of a difference the baker makes to the Imperium.  They might even appreciate that they as Astartes stand as the pinnacles of humanity on a pyramid supported by the baker. 

 

A Flesh Tearer whose entire existence is consumed by war and anger would probably need to remind himself what a baker even is if you used the word in conversation.

In game terms, there is a case to be made that Space Marines shouldn’t necessarily automatically have Common Lore Imperium.


Edited by Visitor Q, 21 August 2014 - 07:39 AM.

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#63 DeathByGrotz

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 05:23 AM

It really depends on the individual marine. Not even on the chapter. Opinions on humanity are as different as there are space marines. The important thing to remember, though, is that they once were human and depending on how they liked their life then, or if they had a good social connection with their environment or were their community's outcast/miser, that may well shape their view on mankind in the centuries to come, when they, as marines, become more and more disconnected and only really have those early memories to truly make them feel "human".



#64 Lynata

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 06:58 AM

From what I remember I believe Space Wolves primarily use an oral traditional of storytelling to preserve their Chapter history and rituals.  They are also notably not a Codex Chapter.  They also operate in quite distinct Great Companies.  When you consider this and the fact that the WH40K setting is based over 10,000 years it maybe isn’t too surprising that the Space Wolves encompass so many different characteristics.  It might simply be a case of the Chapter changing.

 

The majority of stories about them take place in either M41 or during the Great Crusade - I think it's really just a case of different authors having different ideas. This isn't unusual in 40k at all, but with the Space Wolves it may be more obvious - both because as one of the major armies they get more time in the limelight and thus more material (and thus a greater chance for deviation), but also because GW's original vision is comparatively "open", so it simply allows people to pile their own preferences/interpretations on top of them?

 

In terms of emotional intelligence a marine has roughly the same range of emotions as a normal human.  So there is no reason for them not to have some empathy towards normal humans.  The main barriers are cultural and institutional. 

 

Depending on where you look, Marines are also subjected to a great deal of hypno-indoctrination and regular drug injections affecting the very way they think and feel - it's the background for the ATSKNF they have in the tabletop, and the different ways in how this technology has become corrupted in various Chapters over the span of millennia is an explanation for why some of them "act a little strange", if you get my drift.

 

Their monastic lifestyle and daily life is, of course, another great barrier though - but at least all Space Marines used to have a normal childhood on their respective planet of which they are likely to retain some memory (it is, after all, how certain native traditions such as cannibalism may seep into a Chapter). A problem here might be that most Marines are recruited from Feral Worlds that were specifically selected as Marine fiefs for their warlike population, and that memories of their former lives might fade over the decades or even centuries of service, given the extreme experiences they are subjected to as a member of the Adeptus Astartes.


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#65 Visitor Q

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 07:49 AM

Their monastic lifestyle and daily life is, of course, another great barrier though - but at least all Space Marines used to have a normal childhood on their respective planet of which they are likely to retain some memory (it is, after all, how certain native traditions such as cannibalism may seep into a Chapter). A problem here might be that most Marines are recruited from Feral Worlds that were specifically selected as Marine fiefs for their warlike population, and that memories of their former lives might fade over the decades or even centuries of service, given the extreme experiences they are subjected to as a member of the Adeptus Astartes.

 

 

Though there are a fair number who don't have normal childhoods, The Red Scorpions for example take their recruits as pretty much new born infants, the Carcharadons seem to aggressively indoctrinate their recruits to supress memories of their childhood (if I remember the Badab War correctly) and the Minotaurs also use some strange mental reconditioning on their recruits.  On the other hand these are all pretty extreme Chapters.

 

I think the monastic life and routine combined with little or no contact with ordinary humans would have a huge impact even without any kind of chemical or genetic conditioning.



#66 Lynata

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 07:59 AM

The Red Scorpions bit is interesting. I'll hazard a guess and assume that's from some novel or a Forge World book rather than the main studio? But it could fit in nicely, depending on how it's done ... do they have some sort of creche where they keep (and probably train and indoctrinate) the kids until they are old enough for implantation, like an Astartes copy of the Schola Progenium?

 

I think the monastic life and routine combined with little or no contact with ordinary humans would have a huge impact even without any kind of chemical or genetic conditioning.

 

Yup. The real world unfortunately has plenty of examples in that regard ...

Humans are surprisingly "malleable", under certain conditions.


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#67 Visitor Q

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 09:28 AM

The Red Scorpions bit is interesting. I'll hazard a guess and assume that's from some novel or a Forge World book rather than the main studio? But it could fit in nicely, depending on how it's done ... do they have some sort of creche where they keep (and probably train and indoctrinate) the kids until they are old enough for implantation, like an Astartes copy of the Schola Progenium?

 

I think the monastic life and routine combined with little or no contact with ordinary humans would have a huge impact even without any kind of chemical or genetic conditioning.

 

Yup. The real world unfortunately has plenty of examples in that regard ...

Humans are surprisingly "malleable", under certain conditions.

 

Yes.  It's why in real life most monastic orders acted as part of the community rather than apart from it.  Not to mention why there are so few hermitage orders left in the Western world.  

 

I've always suspected that the Emperor planned to get rid of all but a few of the Primarchs and the marines after the Great Crusade and isolating them both emotionally and phyisically would have been a perfect foundation to do this. 


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#68 Lynata

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 11:16 AM

I've always suspected that the Emperor planned to get rid of all but a few of the Primarchs and the marines after the Great Crusade and isolating them both emotionally and phyisically would have been a perfect foundation to do this. 

 

It would also be an interesting explanation for why he made sure that Marine geneseed only works on men - it's an elegant way to prevent unchecked "breeding". After all, to the Emperor, the Space Marines were nothing but tools; he did not want to replace Mankind with them (which might otherwise have happened, given their genetic superiority), but merely have them be the vessel by which Mankind conquers the stars.

 

I share your suspicion, chiefly because it'd be yet another suitably grimdark aspect of the greater setting. :)


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current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#69 Trailblazer

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 02:16 PM

 

I've always suspected that the Emperor planned to get rid of all but a few of the Primarchs and the marines after the Great Crusade and isolating them both emotionally and phyisically would have been a perfect foundation to do this. 

 

I share your suspicion, chiefly because it'd be yet another suitably grimdark aspect of the greater setting. :)

 

 

It's also exactly what he did to the Thunder Warriors when he was done with them.


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#70 Blood Pact

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 06:23 AM

On the other hand there are numerous references and hints that there was originally a purpose for all of the Primarchs after the war (even if Jhagatai's and Russ' aren't as apparent as Magnus' or Guilleman's). Perhaps not the Space Marines, or all of them if they were to be retained. But Angron wasn't supposed to end up a bloodthirsty maniac because someone hammered archeotech in to his skull, either.

 

And it would be harder to put down the much more numerous Space Marine Legions than the inherently genetically unstable Thunder Warriors.



#71 javcs

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 11:22 AM

The Primarchs were supposed to be part of the "beginning the next stage/phase of humankind" plan, IIRC. The Astartes were created as a stopgap measure in the absence of the Primarchs. The Emperor couldn't follow his original plan with the Primarchs, so he went with the Marines as a Plan B.

 

 

As for the dealing with the Legions post-Crusade, I expect that they would have been retained for some time, but with the 'war' over, and the Imperium at 'peace', they would likely reduce the production of new Marines significantly. The Legions would still have been required for a time, as they would be an independent and mostly impartial arm, resistant to political influences, and would have been required both as the primary line of defense and quite possibly as an internal enforcement force for the Emperor, during the process of progressing humanity to the next step on humanity's path. By the time the Legions would be unneeded, Mankind would have moved on, and purging the Marine Legions (if necessary) would have been significantly easier - besides, disposing of the Legions doesn't actually require killing them all. Put them into an honorable semi-retirement, training the successor forces, and let them die off naturally, and/or allow them to grind themselves down against enemy forces. Besides, at the hypothetical point the Legions need to be disposed of, it's quite likely that there would have been several steps of technological advancement past where they are/were, and it's probable that there would be multiple armor/equipment/ship upgrades, and if truly necessary, remotely triggered suicide charges of various forms/means could be utilized. Or, y'know, just pull a Horus and land them somewhere under false pretences and Exterminatus them from orbit, or land them somewhere for review/celebration and stasis field the place, that way if you need them again, for whatever reason, they're still available.

And it is worth remembering, that at the time of the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, the Astartes were not so distant from the masses of humanity as they are nowadays. Non-Astartes were much more closely worked with and the Legions were far more accepting of outsiders than they are now.

It's also possible that the Legions would slowly have evolved, phasing out Astartes production with next-stage of humanity recruits.



#72 Walkot

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 04:06 AM

ok, a lot of interesting point of view.

maybe we can try another pow?

 

imagine to be yourself and today a lot of micetics spore falldown.... tyranids are here and we try to survive...

I, you know, i'm the best fighter :)

 

After some days, the space wolf come to save our planet, and choose me to go with them. (leaving behind my old life)

 

- Now after 1 year, i've already transformed into a Sapce Wolf...the humans is important for me?

 

- After a lot of battle 50/100 years of horrors and nightmare, if my mind was not broken, the humans are important for me?

 

(please keep in mind that all the space marine venerate the Emperor, the god that descend on heart to save humanity, he create the primarch and the chapater, for defending humanity. He die for defending the imperium of man.)

 

 

(please forgive for my bad english) 

 

cheers



#73 Walkot

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 04:22 AM

i will answer first:

 

- yes, I'm human, I now have a superbody and I'm indoctrinated for fighting at the top, armed to the fang with the best weapons and armor, but I'm still human.

The Emperor give is life for humans, Leman Russ fight as the champion of the emperor, i will do my duty!

 

- I remember a past time when I play on my world with other children...But now I'm a Wolf Guard, I know a lot and live alot, now i see almost the entire plan of the Emperor, and yes i will give my life for defending humans.

But now i fight with more wisdom, for Russ shake, i'm not the Great Wolf, and i have not to decide if we have to save first one world or another...as always we do our part.

 

We are the Wolf, We will fight to the end, for the Wolftime.

 

:):):)






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