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Do Normal People Matter?


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#41 Captain Ventris

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:21 PM

No1 has been levelly defending and explaining his points,  with direct and clear responses to you which I cannot percieve as being insulting. You went back at him by telling him he's a hack. Great job.



#42 Zappiel

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:48 PM

No, he's been levelly attacking what he perceives as my position because he (and you) fail to read what i post, latch on to one comment you find distasteful, and attack.  Out of my whole post you only read the last line…..great job…..

Now, if he's busy crying over the truth, that's his problem…..I've been trying to keep this thread on-track despite his constant harangues…..and now yers….and i've kept meself damned civil while doing it; but there's only so much i am willing to take, and Christmas is over………



#43 Blood Pact

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:11 PM

(You want crass, and unconcerned with politeness? I'm your man.

And here I was, going to delete all this, thinking it unecessary after the good job No1-H3r3 did. No really, I wrote this hours ago, and as I kept scrolling along I saw No1 explaining things better than I ever could, and assumed everything would be alright. And then I got to your next post…)

 

Zappiel said:

hmmmmmm….our notions of "the Divine" differ……..there is absolutely 0 % divinity in space marines……the Emprah (heresy alert!) is not a god….he's human, with psionic/'magic' powers; but he ain't no god. Sure, he was tougher than the four chaos 'gods'; but they ain't anything close to godly either. Hell, they're just castoff emotional wastage. He has no hint of omniscience nor omnipotence. I'm here to clear the bedazzlement from our eyes, so that we may clearly see our beloved space marines and their primarchs for what they really honestly are. None of this hero-worshipping, 'they are gods of war' sheit for me, thanx…..seems a bit too fanboyish, no? Now, don't get me wrong: space marines (and, well, war) is my Dark Angel; I love this ****….but let's not sugarcoat it; let's call it for what it is.

laughingsistersofbattle.jpg

Someone doesn't know the story of the Shaman, does he? Thousands of humanity's best and brightest psykers, taking part in one huge suicide-ritual-pact, their conciousness and souls combing to create the greatest psyker ever known to humanity of all the galaxy (there's a reason why the Chaos Gods fear Him specifically, so much they bend their every effort to killing him, and not say the Old Ones). Much more than some psyker who hit the all-time high in the genetic lottery and fluked his way in to becoming the most powerful living being to ever walk the galaxy.

You can't demand that everyone ignore the cosmology of the 40K universe in favour of our own current system of beliefs and understanding of the universe. The Chaos Gods may be just "castoff emotional wastage" to you, but unfortunately the reality is that the Warp is tied closely to the natural world, what happens in one can have an effect on the other, usually the reaction being with the warp, but not always. They are eons old, and and have grown so powerful that they are beyond ordinary human sentience in to something else entirely, and will not be ignored just because you don't like it. God, in the judeo-christian sense not only doesn't exist in 40K, and cannot possibly exist, except as some kind of gestalt Warp entity, ala the Ruinous Powers. Likewise the D&D Gods. They're not a 'person' sitting around with a portfolio of stuff that falls under their purvue, collecting up their woshippers and taking them to their private Plane of the multiverse as they die. And you can't tell us that THAT is what a God is, just because you're not satisfied with how things work in within the actual universe of 40K.

Remember the part when you were talking about how you believe science can explain everything, even in 40K? You're right, but unfortunately sometimes the answer Science is going to give you (in 40K) is, "The Warp Did It".

 

 

Zappiel said:

As for the Emprah being godly, well…….to borrow an example from star trek (gasp! great Scott, don't go there!), let us look at Q: Q has more power in the snap of his fingers than the Emprah could ever dream of…..and there is no way in hell any of us would consider Q to be a god - massively, sickeningly powerful, yes; but no god. Again, I don't deny that, in universe, Imperial citizens can, do, and must worship him as god; I'm merely stating that WE shouldn't. We have the perspective and objectivity to see things in 40k for how they 'really' would be; we can imagine ourselves there, and can see it through our own eyes. Our characters can worship the Emprah and revere the Astartes; but we are objective, we (more or less) know what's going on.[And just to clear up a couple points: the Immortal Emperor of Mankind was born 9000 years before Christ, in ancient Anatoly (yes, Turkey), the birthplace of human civilization as we currently understand it. Immortality does not equate with godliness (elsewise, every vampire would be a god, and what a tiresome pantheon that would be…). And I would argue that His ability to heal machinery is merely Him telling the Star Dragon/'Deus in Machina' to do it (which is, of course, a tremendously powerful thing to do, too….)]

Ironic example in Star Trek. Ironic in that, and most people really don't realise it, is that Star Trek is like Star Wars, that despite the popularity it holds it is actually one of the worst detailed science-fiction/fantasy settings there is. Nothing about the actual NATURE of Q or the Q Continuum is ever explained. We don't know what their powers are based on, where they stem from, what powers them. When it comes to 40K, we know how Psykers work. They're a genetic abnormality that allows them to tap in to the limitless energies of the warp, and use that energy to produce effects within the real universe that could loosely be described as "supernatural" in nature, because the Warp and things sourced from it do not obey the laws of the natural universe. Their powers are inherently limited by their own capabilities, and even moreso by the mercurial and dangerous aspects of the power their harnessing, with the added danger that there are things living in that alternate dimension that want to eat their soul. A Psyker might snap his fingers and make solid objects appear out of nowhere, but we know the processes behind that. Trying to compare them to Q, who snaps his fingers and makes things appear, when we know absolutely nothing about his powers, is a lazy comparison. As lazy as the people writing the background for the Q. At least Stargate gave everyone a loose explanation on how Ascended beings and their powers worked, how they got there in the first place, etc., more than "because they can".

Now, specifically on the subject of whether Q is a God. Actually, yes he is. He is omniscient and omnipotent, in every judeo-christian sense of the word, he could very well be THE God, not just A God. Because you appear to be forgetting that Gods aren't all kindness and nobility. No, some Gods are like Kali, they have six arms so they can have a variety of ways to kill you with. Some Gods just to drink and party a lot, you'd find those in the Norse Pantheon. Even ol' Yahweh himself tended to get especially grouchy in the old days, what with killing first born and turning people in to pillars of salt.

 

 

Zappiel said:

aha, well there we have it….Games Workshop will never, ever say anything equivocal about anything, because they hafta keep their options open for future profits…..they hafta keep the universe 'open' because their modern crop of writers are too lazy to read the material that has come before and maintain consistency….far easier to make sheit up as you go than maintain any sense of continuity…..Mat Ward….Black Library…..the original Necron codex states quite clearly that there are four necron gods, they're bad, and they're back. No mythological fantasizing there…..every player of necrons in the late 90's/early 2000's knew exactly what they were playing….then a bunch of hacks decided they wanted more 'feeling', more 'character', so they made Newcrons….somebody didn't quite like the feel of dwarfs in space, so no more squats….you cannot for one minute suggest that people are wrong for critisizing blatant, 180 degree changes to the established facts of the game and setting. Your clear disdain for what people care about is….insightful.

 

So, instead of accepting that 40K fans actually like things the way they are, with no secret ur-truth to rule them all, you simply jump to accusing everyone involved with the company of being greedy shills. Real classy there.

And we also get to see that you're an angry Necron fanboy too. It must really steam you that the majority of 40K gamers like the Newcrons too. Even though so many people wanted desperately to hate them, for no other reason than Matt Ward was involved.

guest469 said:

I liked it back when there was more mystery and ambiguity about the nature of the Emperor and his supposed divinity. Miracles were less blatant, atheists and separatists actually had a foot to stand on, and there was always a possibility that the Chaos worshippers are right all along.

Now days everybody knows the Imperium are the good guystm even when they are screaming for hatred, genocide and ignorance. Nobody even bats an eyelid anymore. You can have Inquisitor Hitler authorizing the exterminatus of planet Auschwitz to protect the purity of the human race from xeno infiltration, and everyone is HOO HAH IMPERIUM **** YEAH!

 

But hey, at least they aren't Tau.

You'll find that, for the most part, noone really needed to be told that the Imperium are the good guys, no matter how far back in the fluff that you go. The thought that Chaos could actually be the good guys, when they go around toturing and murdering people, in ways more awful than the Dark Eldar, is ludicrous. Most of the Traitor Legionaires can't even make the claim that they're doing it as a part of their war against the Imperium anymore. For many, it's about fun, or BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!, or because they need to do some sorcerous experiment.

And your precious Tau, as much as I'm sure you hate to admit it, may politely ask if you'd like to be in their Empire.. before they invade you, when you say No. But after they've conquered your world in a brutal assault, they take you and anyone else who continues to resist (cause they gave you the chance to have cake and shiny toys already, so none of that for you now) and stick them in reeducation camps. Or sterilize them and use them as forced labour. Brainwash your leaders to get you to follow the party line.

And they keep pushing scientific advancement and research, not afraid of exploring new frontiers of science. Except that one of the reasons the Imperium is stagnant is because they've learned the hard way, there's some things it's better not to study. Keep networking AI's together to make them more and more intelligent and useful to the Greater Good, because that's not a good way to have a repeat of the Iron Men revolt (if you think the Tau are somehow more advanced than the Dark Age of Technology, you're kidding yourself).

But hey, at least they aren't the Imperium.


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#44 Lynata

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:27 PM

Blood Pact said:

So, instead of accepting that 40K fans actually like things the way they are, with no secret ur-truth to rule them all, you simply jump to accusing everyone involved with the company of being greedy shills. Real classy there.

And we also get to see that you're an angry Necron fanboy too. It must really steam you that the majority of 40K gamers like the Newcrons too. Even though so many people wanted desperately to hate them, for no other reason than Matt Ward was involved.

One thing I feel I have to add is that I can understand his emotional position, as much as I would have conveyed it a little more … diplomatic. I think many, if not most fans of 40k would appreciate greater consistency and continuity throughout the franchise. The only reason that we do not see more criticism on the company's current policies is that most fans are not even aware of how it works. Look around - all those fluff discussions we see throughout several online communities? The vast majority of them is a simple waste of time, simply because the participants all operate on material that is not even intended to tie into each other, with the end result being that everybody thinks that he or she has "got it right", yet being faced with the frustration that whatever question is being discussed cannot be answered, as contradictions remain unresolved. It boils down to the various communities basically building some sort of local consensus, where the personal preference of the most active posters is presented as fact that everyone else should adopt. This forum is no different, as I believe you remember from our own debates.

But regardless of my own opinion regarding it, this lack of consistency between the different products is not actually something that the company could be faulted for. Where it does deserve criticism, however, is the lack of clarification on the subject. It really should be made more obvious, so that fans do not grow up with false expectations regarding the stability of the setting or the information value of individual sources.

Due to the situation at hand, I think it is understandable that those of us who do experience this "epiphany", at least those of us who used to regard 40k as a singular world, where every licensed product would add something to the greater whole, get frustrated, even angry at essentially having been misled (though it was just other fans that did the misleading, rather than GW themselves) … before they would somehow come to terms with the situation. That's how it happened to me, and that's how Aaron Dembski-Bowden described it for himself. I don't know if it was different with you, but I think that, given time, Zappiel may adapt as well. He just needs to re-order his perception now, and realise the disadvantages as well as the advantages that GW's current stance offers him.

For example that he may now simply choose to ignore the bit about Tau forced sterilisation from the Dawn of War games which you mentioned in your post. ;)

I still think a "common ground" for all of us to operate on (greater than just the basics about the Emperor being dead, Marines all being male, etc) would be better in this age and time where 40k is not just limited to a local bunch of gamers anymore, but now that the cat is outta the bag, we may as well pick and choose just like the guys who write the stuff we buy do it.



#45 Zappiel

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:01 PM

Good on you, Lynata!  Way to spur the conversation forward (though we're still not back onto topic…..)  :)

But, sadly, Blood Pact is one of those who don't get it and can't read my posts with a neutral attitude………..i know all about the shamans, i'm not a necron fanboy, and, yeah, pretty much everything else you said was also completely wrong……sorry……read my posts again with less rage and hate in yer eyes… what you fail to understand is:  i don't have my own personal opinion re 40k - i have the information from the source material…this isn't my personal interpretation, this is the information that's out there.

If we're gonna talk 'fluff', then we need to differentiate between the Forge World products (which are not primary canon) and the TT rulebooks (which ARE primary canon)…..there is a flow to the background info in 40k, starting with Rogue Trader, then 2nd ed., 3rd ed., and then the rest of the editions thru the 2000's…..things got very solidified in 3rd edition; mebe 3rd and 4th editions.  Not a lot of fluff changes in the rulebooks since then, really.  And, let's be honest, all the fluff changes are the result of a company not wanting to be limited by what it's printed in the past - perfectly understandable from a profits perspective (and not a secret ur-truth held by greedy shills…..wow, bloodpact, yer good).  The company can and will change anything to suit its whims and maximize its profits…….

Artistically, from the standpoint of a consistent vision of 40k, this just is not on, however.

If yer havin' trouble understanding that concept, skip on to another thread.

Hey, if yer happy having everything but the kitchen sink thrown at you in the vain attempt to take yer money, then fine….but if you want a consistent vision, you gotta dig, and dig long and deep.  But it's out there…it CAN be found…there IS a consistent 40k vision…….

But, we must be sure to not cloud the issue with silly, childish notions of godhood and heroics - our *characters* can hold such notions, but we as players and gamemasters can not and must not.  This is not an emotional position; pure logic, baby.

This leads back to the question:  do normal people matter in 40k?  From our perspective as players and gamemaster:  absolutely yes!  Stories involving overcoming impossible odds, saving the day, rescuing the distressed are the meat 'n potatoes of compelling 40k tales.  From the perspective of an Imperial High Lord:  absolutely not!  No single human life could ever possibly be measured against species survival (except, of course, for the high lord's own personal human life….). 



#46 Misha

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 02:34 AM

Normal humans do matter... to some chapters. There are about a thousand chapters maybe more but there are those who stand out. Here are some. When it comes to fact of other normal people, the higher you get the less you care. If you know anymore please list them, or edit mine.

 

We respect normal people(Slightly).

Salamanders: They have a history of kindness and compassion to the normal majority of humans. Even though their faces are scary enough to make a man have nightmares especially when they're angry, they try to still to show kindness. They are the eptimome of bravery and will fight to the last to defend refugees from orkish raidas'. Many authors write that Salamanders when at home live in their home villages as chiefs. They govern their own village and visit mum and dad (mindblow). Wonder how it feels to be them. The Salamanders are good guys, the hero that would rather help then fight. They still fight a lot.

 

Ultramarines: Not so much as the Salamanders but the Ultramarines are patient and understanding of humans. They don't throw their superiority around and will listen instead of barging in and saving the day. The Ultramarines are famous for making an empire in an empire, Ultramar. The happiest place in the galaxy(not including the sad day when Hive Fleet Behamoth came. They weren't so happy then). This were every civilian life matters, thats what they think but it is more 'livable' than most of the rest of the Imperium. However the Ultramarines aren't as close to people than the Salamanders.

 

Word Bearers: I know they're Chaos loving bastards but they have to be on here. When they were Emperor loving bastards they had a slow conquest rate. Not because they're second rate but because they stay on the planet and ensure a succesful world. For the Emperor of course. They made a happy trail of planets all praising the Emperors name. Monarchia was one but not for long. Lorgar was the most important part of this. He would have been happier as a governer or a priest, just not a warrior.

 

We do not respect normal people(hate them actually)

Iron hands: Humans are weak and lack hatred. Sure most don't have enough badass cybernetics. Iron Hands don't as much as hate humans but they find them weak and limited by their flesh. Even techmarines aren't fully exempt. Iron Hands are more prone to ignoring people as they see them unworthy of attention. Some might even sneer at the armoury serf(bad idea).

 

Night Lords: Terror is the only way forwards! I don't want to say anything bad at them cause they are my favourite Chaos chapter\warband. However they do not act kindly to normal people. Gas, terror, terrorism, bombings and you get the idea.

 

Here are only some examples. Please write more.



#47 Lynata

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 10:38 AM

Well, the Marines Malevolent are an obvious candidate for the "hate" section.  :lol:

 

"I fully believe that the Marines Malevolent hold Imperial citizens in contempt and perceive themselves to be self-evidently superior to their fellow man. While biologically this may indeed be the case, I feel it is a worrying psychological trait that has not only brought about the deaths of nearly four thousand refugees and members of the Adeptus Ministorum, but shows a worryingly egotistical streak in the command structure of the Marines Malevolent."
- Colonel Destrier Celestine, Armageddon Command Guard
 
Though often it is also a matter of interpretation, especially as every so often some sources offer conflicting portrayals. In case of the Salamanders, for example, the short story "Know Thine Enemy" from GW designer Gav Thorpe almost had a Salamander Marine punch a Guardsman's head off for daring to suggest that the IG platoon could take over watch duty in order to allow the Astartes to rest after their long march to the rendezvous point.
And then there is the ambiguous GW fluff on the Salamanders' role in society, where it states that they do not only live with the ordinary Humans, but actually assume leadership positions in their communities. So, are they truly benevolent and beloved elders, or cruel lords commanding absolute fealty from their inferior subjects? The Index Astartes mentions how this leadership role, this position of absolute authority over the Human population of Nocturne, is "as craved as much as the chance to become a legendary warrior for the Emperor" by young aspirants...
 
Make of that what you will, but personally I find that the fandom may have focused on the benevolent depiction of the Salamanders a little too much (to the point that much of it is hearsay, merely propagated because everybody else says so), so much so that many are not even aware of the alternative possibility. ;)
 
Ultimately, of course, the decision rests with us as the readers. :)

Edited by Lynata, 04 July 2014 - 10:39 AM.

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#48 Misha

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 06:17 PM

Ultimately, of course, the decision rests with us as the readers. Lynata said this.
 
Very much agreed. I wonder about the Space Wolfs though. They get a 5+ bonus to fellowship in DW but I know cases when they can be 'cough' a bit cruel. They were made as the Emperors excecutioners(Horus Heresy fluff). So would they be cruel or kind or even both? They are the most celebrating of Space Marines but just like the Nords they represent(obvious) they are merciless killers. Please help me here.


#49 Lynata

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 10:53 PM

Please help me here.

 

This is a tricky one. The Space Wolves in particular seem to have gone through a lot of subtly different interpretations all depending on who writes about them. In the words of another player, "they can't decide whether they want to be Space Vikings, Werewolves, Loyalist World Eaters, Mary Sues, Wolverine, Monsters, Primitive Pagans, Disciplined, Feral, Serious, Humorous, Intelligent, Bestial, Super Soldiers or an awful amalgamation of all of these often contradictory things."

 

I'd say go for which of these terms you like the most - personally, my favoured version is Space Viking Super Soldiers with just a hint of Werewolves, and for their behaviour in and out of battle, as well as their reputation, I'm looking at the real world viking cliché which, imho, was the original inspiration.

 

And even the Horus Heresy novels are just one of many possible interpretations of 40k (and quite over the top compared to the Index Astartes' version of events).



#50 Misha

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 12:28 AM

Thanks Lynata! :)

 

Now you've mentioned it my favourite version of Space Wolves are the humorous band of brothers who are utterly devoted to each other but still have the friendly rivalry and not so friendly competitions. They will fight to the death(or till they sleep on red snow). I also like the interpretation in the codex. It says in there that some Space Wolves splash mead on their favoured tanks to thank them! About whever they care for the majority it also says in the codex(Space Wolfs collecter) that after the first war of Armagedon the Inquisition did massive purges. They killed many soldiers and civilians to keep the war secret. Logan Grimnir when hearing this flew into a vengeful rage, angry at the callous treatment of his fellow in arms even if they were normal humans. He threatened violence but thanks to the soothing words of Ulrik the Slayer a civil war was averted. This might sound disagreeable to some but I like it, because it shows how the Space Wolves respect all warriors no matter if you're a lowly guardsman. The scenario did ensure one thing, Logan's hate of the Administratum.

 

How about that to think about. I went a bit of topic there but I am interested in the relations of humans and Space Marines. I also love making up quotes and things. See how you like it.

 

They think they are superior but in the end they are human. They have flaws as well as we do, they can feel anger and serenity, joy and sadness. How I laugh at their traitorous kin. They thought they were different. How wrong they are. Some marines have a similair notion. But without us they would not exist. Even the Almighty Emperor, may his light cleanse my soul, is human. Yes a powerful, godlike one but still human. In the end it is because we are human not because we have weapons, armies and generals that make the galaxy fear us! No, the fact that we are human keeps the darkness at bay. The Emperor protects.                                                    Last words of Inquisitor Kallias after the Battle of Octavian. Executed for Treason and Heresy.


Edited by Misha, 05 July 2014 - 05:33 AM.


#51 Lynata

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 09:21 AM

I think that interpretation is pretty close to mine - all of that sounds very "viking'ish" to me. :)
 
Including that Inquisition event, although there's multiple versions of it again, including a Black Library novel one where it escalates so far that the SW end up assaulting and killing a Lord Inquisitor and a bunch of Grey Knights. That's where I just have to draw the line; such an action should simply mark the offender Excommunicate Traitoris regardless of who it was, as it undermines the Inquisition's authority and clearly shows whoever did it cannot be controlled. "The Ordo Malleus does not practice forgiveness."
 
In general, I think there is a somewhat worrying development regarding the Space Wolves where some authors try and expand on their rebellious image by inserting more and more conflict with other Imperial institutions, but it's slowly getting to the point where they ought to have no support left and should be hated by anyone save (most) other Astartes. The SoB Codex, for example, mentions the Space Wolves murdering a bunch of visiting Ministorum envoys in cold blood, which triggered a punitive strike by the Adepta Sororitas. The conflict lasted only a couple weeks and pretty much ended in a draw, but I think it would be naive to assume that it would not have lasting repercussions for the relationship of the Chapter and the Imperium's state-church. Then again, this happens at the end of M41, so much like with the Flesh Tearer's imminent excommunication the looming consequences may simply not be obvious to us because the timeline does not move forward. The only branch of the IoM left they don't seem to have issues with is the Adeptus Mechanicus, but then again we just didn't read anything on what the AdMech thinks about the Wolves' semi-heretical "Gods of Iron" stuff yet.
 
Either way, I believe as far as relations and perception are concerned, it would be important to keep in mind a few things:
  • proximity of the Chapter towards the population of the planet in question (how often do they interact?)
  • similarities between Chapter and planetary culture (tech level, lifestyle)
  • likelihood of stories to spread (who are the survivors, what happens to them)
  • relationship of the Chapter towards other branches of the Imperium (media control)
 
Some people may make the mistake and believe a Marine Chapter is popular "just" because they did something good. I think this misses out on the fact that news about this good actually have to spread, and that often this may not be the case due to the limits on space travel, communications and the freedom of ordinary folks. In the end, how the people of the Imperium perceive a Space Marine Chapter depends less about how that Chapter actually behaves, but more about what they are being told by local Imperial institutions about it - whether true or false. Before actually having met a Space Wolf in person, the only thing an ordinary Imperial citizen, including Guardsmen, knows about them is not what they picked up on some independent news channel that may report on things in an unbiased fashion ... it's what they are getting told by their local Ministorum Preacher and Administratum-controlled propaganda. And this is why I believe the Space Wolves might have deserved an (unjustly) bad reputation for daring to stand up for the little man. It's simply one of the downsides of removing oneself from the Imperium's power structure and leading a semi-independent life.
And it's unfair stuff like this that preserves the Grimdark of the setting, and I think ignoring it would eventually lead to the setting getting "declawed" and ending up as just another generic space fantasy opera rather than filling the rather unique dystopian slot it does now.
 
Also important may be a natural predisposition between the Marines and Humans that hinges on their respective cultures. For example, I think a Feral Worlder may have a much easier time befriending a Space Wolf than someone who grew up on a Shrine World. Even a single planet may feature different "castes" that might react differently: again taking a Space Wolf as example, the violent lifestyle in an Underhive could endear him to a Ganger, yet a merchant, an Enforcer or even a noble might find it somewhat difficult to interact with one of the Sons of Russ due to their clashing personalities (depending on how we imagine them).
 
In general, the Ministorum seems to be somewhat split as to what to teach people about Astartes. From the 2E SoB Codex:
 
"There has been constant conflict between the Adeptus Ministorum and the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes since Fatidicus first began preaching on Terra. They are rivals in power like any Imperial organisations, but more importantly, their beliefs differ at a very fundamental level. In particular, there is a schism in the clergy's thinking concerning the Space Marines. On the one hand the Space Marines, above all others, can truly be called the children of the Emperor. They are wholly his creation and even contain elements of his own genetic structure. They are the founders of the Imperium, and supreme defenders of humanity. The Space Marines are unswervingly loyal to the Emperor and would die in the defence of his honour and the Imperium. However, the Space Marine Chapters do not adhere to the teachings of the Ecclesiarchy. Their beliefs vary wildly from Chapter to Chapter, worshipping the Emperor and their Primarchs to different degrees. In many ways they are heretics with their own traditions, ceremonies and beliefs, some of which are very barbaric, compared to the well-ordered masses of the Ecclesiarchy. 
 
Most Space Marines worship the Emperor as a great, gifted man, but do not consider him a god in the same sense that is preached by the Ecclesiarchy. His blood runs through their veins and he is considered the ultimate example of mankind, but he is a man nonetheless. Also it is a matter of debate whether the Space Marines are truly human at all. Their genetically engineered bodies are far superior to a normal human, enough to make them a separate race if one wished to interpret their differences so. How can any self-respecting Confessor or Cardinal relate to a monstrous giant who can spit acid, crush a mans skull with one hand and practises crude acts of blood sacrifice?
 
An uneasy compromise has been reached over the millennia, which can be summed up as an agreement to differ. The Ecclesiarchy does not send Confessors and Missionaries to the Space marine worlds and the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes do not interfere with the Adeptus Ministorum. Space Marine Chaplains are given their precious Rosarius by the Ecclesiarchy as a symbolic link between the two organisations, but the Chaplains still preach their own version of the Imperial Creed to their brethren. This uneasy truce has been shattered at times when a particularly zealous Cardinal or Confessor has roused the ire of the Space Marine Chapters with his words or deeds. These feuds are usually resolved quickly, though not always without bloodshed, and the relative peace between the two organisations returns.
 
Occasionally the Battle Sisters will have common cause with the firce Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes. Although the relationship between these two organisations is only civil at best, the Space Marines and Battle Sisters both respect each other's prowess and skill at arms. Many times, the foes of the Imperium have been eradicated by a combined attack from these two elite forces."
 
On a sidenote, it may be interesting that, at least in GW's fluff, there also seem to be limits to Space Wolf loyalty: the CSM Codex entry on the Red Corsairs warband mentions Huron's renegades boarding a SW strike cruiser - but when some of the Space Wolves aboard noticed they couldn't win this fight, they betrayed and executed their brethren, pledging allegiance to Huron Blackheart and offering the ship to him.
Personally, I believe this sudden shift in loyalty to be a product of the Wolves' lifestyle. They combine obvious enjoyment of the perks of Marine ascension with a lack of the minimum humility that seems prevalent in more Codex-compliant Chapters, which in my opinion is a dangerous combination. It may be kept in check by charismatic leaders, but it doesn't prevent stuff like jealousy (could the traitorous SW have had a problem with their former leader?) or even the prioritisation of one's own life before that of their brethren, or the Imperium.
 
 
Also, thanks for mentioning that bit about the mead - it must have escaped me so far, but it's very characteristic! I could imagine a Deathwatch SW player doing the same with his gun or sword. :)


#52 Misha

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 05:22 PM

In general, I think there is a somewhat worrying development regarding the Space Wolves where some authors try and expand on their rebellious image by inserting more and more conflict with other Imperial institutions, but it's slowly getting to the point where they ought to have no support left and should be hated by anyone save (most) other Astartes. The SoB Codex, for example, mentions the Space Wolves murdering a bunch of visiting Ministorum envoys in cold blood, which triggered a punitive strike by the Adepta Sororitas. The conflict lasted only a couple weeks and pretty much ended in a draw, but I think it would be naive to assume that it would not have lasting repercussions for the relationship of the Chapter and the Imperium's state-church. Then again, this happens at the end of M41, so much like with the Flesh Tearer's imminent excommunication the looming consequences may simply not be obvious to us because the timeline does not move forward. The only branch of the IoM left they don't seem to have issues with is the Adeptus Mechanicus, but then again we just didn't read anything on what the AdMech thinks about the Wolves' semi-heretical "Gods of Iron" stuff yet.Lynata said this.

 

In reply to this, there are a couple reasons. The first, a rather weak one but a reason all the same is that the High Lords of Terra cannot just throw the Wolves away. Yes I know that the High Lords of Terra destroyed many other traitor chapters without a second thought but I've always imagined there is a reason unknown even by the Space Wolves. The acceptance of the Space Wolf way.

 

Another reason is that the common man and trooper respect the SW for respecting them. I have read a book where a group of guardsmen refuse to execute a possible Space Marine traitor because he fought with them and they have a mutual respect. The common soldier who fights every day and respects his mates for helping him, that is what the SW look for. The guardsman likes the SW, seeing them as liberators and heroes not like the other chapters. Reason why I like books with a lone Space Marine having to be helped by a normal human family.

 

Otherwise you have very good points Lynata and I can't really argue against that.

 

About the mead, one of my players is a SW and splashes almost everything he has with blood. Usually human blood. Jokes about whever he should join the Blood Angels are common. Or the Salamanders. :lol:



#53 Lynata

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 06:35 PM

In reply to this, there are a couple reasons. The first, a rather weak one but a reason all the same is that the High Lords of Terra cannot just throw the Wolves away. Yes I know that the High Lords of Terra destroyed many other traitor chapters without a second thought but I've always imagined there is a reason unknown even by the Space Wolves. The acceptance of the Space Wolf way.

 

Certainly, but this acceptance has - or rather, should have - its limits. Looking at the list of internal conflicts, it almost starts to look as if the Space Wolves are killing more Imperial troops than "actual" enemies, aside from the various leaders (both the High Lords as well as the SW Chapter Master) issues with one another being quite capable of overriding reason.

 

Not to mention that the SW are already suspect for having such a peculiar geneseed. Really, I think that some authors should just try to consider likely consequences before they start adding to that ever-growing list of "how the Wolves give the Imperium the finger".

 

Once I considered the "SW are too important" line to be perfectly reasonable, even common sense, but with every friendly fire incident it grows weaker. At some point, I'm starting to think that if the Space Wolves are still too important, perhaps something is wrong with their importance, too. ;)

It is for this reason, for example, that I simply ignore stuff like the murder of a Lord Inquisitor and a Grey Knights Grand Master (apart from the novel in question having been hilariously badly written) - it preserves the last remnants of tolerance the Wolves may still enjoy.

 

At the end of the day, to the High Lords, the Space Wolves are just ~2.000 Space Marines the likes of which are created every couple millennia with one of the dozens of Foundings. In other words, they are replaceable. Or again, rather, they should be.

 

Though here I should probably point out that I prefer looking at the setting in a more gritty fashion, "embracing the Grimdark", rather than wishing to see something or someone immune to any consequences to what they do because they are a protagonist or an established entity in the franchise. So, once again a matter of preferences/perspective; it's just different styles of narration. I suppose you could say I'd wish for 40k to be a bit more like Game of Thrones, where you actually have to fear for whoever you like, and never know what comes next. ;)

 

Another reason is that the common man and trooper respect the SW for respecting them.

 

Yet, if they've not already fought side by side, how could they possibly know how the SW might feel about them?

That's what I meant with the previous post. What the common man and trooper knows is being dictated by the Administratum and Ministorum. If they know anything about the Space Marines, much less individual Chapters, it's what they are getting told by the people in charge.

 

Fenris has already been invaded by millions of Guardsmen once, during a war that lasted three years. Arguably, Cardinal Bucharis did not have much of a problem instilling a sense of hatred in them: "Despite the adversity of the conditions, the bloodthirsty warriors under Bucharis' command vowed to exact revenge on the Space Wolves for their lost comrades."

 

 

Though, if the High Lords really wanted the SW out of the way, there are probably less problematic, more dirty methods than direct military intervention, especially as the latter might draw other Chapters into a civil war with the IoM. The Space Wolves don't have any successors, but I would not be surprised if they wouldn't have one or two Chapters that are honour-bound to assist them, leading to an ever-escalating conflict much like the Badab War with Marines fighting Marines, just because one Chapter Master felt a need to defy the legal representatives of the Emperor out of personal pride.

 

About the mead, one of my players is a SW and splashes almost everything he has with blood. Usually human blood. Jokes about whever he should join the Blood Angels are common. Or the Salamanders. :lol:

 

:lol:

 

 

[edit] After some introspection, it occurred to me that the above might sounds as if I just don't like the Space Wolves - I wanted to clarify that I don't think this is the case. I do like their idea (in fact, I almost started them once, many years ago), I just don't like how many (most?) authors execute it. "Too much of the good stuff", if you will, spoiling my perception of them, at least of how they are portrayed in their books and most of the fanbase. :unsure:


Edited by Lynata, 05 July 2014 - 07:30 PM.


#54 Misha

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 08:52 PM

"how the Wolves give the Imperium the finger". Lynata said this.

 

 Ha Ha Ha! Wolf Style! :lol:

Very well explained. And no I was not talking about that sentence! ^_^ 

 

The wolves are... unique. Independant and outragously lucky. I mean killing three million soldiers doesn't make the High Lord happy. Thanks a lot Lynata you made everything detailed and clear. Hmm, what does anyone think about making a Space Wolf traitor as the main badguy. Better tell Fenric to prepare a shower. A blood shower. ;)


Edited by Misha, 05 July 2014 - 09:05 PM.


#55 Lynata

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 12:06 AM

Hmm, what does anyone think about making a Space Wolf traitor as the main badguy. Better tell Fenric to prepare a shower. A blood shower. ;)

 

This could actually be a neat tie-in to that strike cruiser story from the CSM Codex! If you manage to link that incident to your campaign, that is?

 

It'd kind of give your SW player the opportunity to "restore the honour of his Chapter", in his brethren's eyes. Certainly, executing a renegade would be counted as removing a stain on the Wolves' annals? This way, you could combine duty to the Deathwatch with adding to the history of a character's Chapter. :)

 

Normally, I'm a bit sceptical against tie-ins with existing material, but on the other hand believe that such things are not only okay but actually desirable, if the players' involvement doesn't surpass a certain level of importance that lets them rival their Chapter Masters in renown. Keeping things small is another of my preferences - but that doesn't mean you cannot play some role in an event that your players may know from a book.



#56 Misha

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 01:31 AM

This could actually be a neat tie-in to that strike cruiser story from the CSM Codex! If you manage to link that incident to your campaign, that is? Lynata said this.

 

I didn't think about the tie-in to the strike cruiser story! Thanks! :)

 

I think I could link the incident to my campaign because my SW player knows about the Incident and hates Huron. That would be interesting but it might block out the other characters... Still the idea stands and I am thinking about making him from the scenario of sad betrayal. How is Fenjir Fenheart for a name? I also want to make him worship a chaos god though I don't want, but I don't mind Khorne. What god should I choose? Or maybe I shouldn't choose any god? I will do so myself but please post possible characteristics and personality. It will be interesting to see how other people would make him. Images are welcome. I'm thinking of making him... flighty. He doesn't care that he betrayed the Imperium. He will happily change sides to survive.


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#57 Lynata

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 01:58 AM

How is Fenjir Fenheart for a name?

 

Hmm, I'd say drop at least one "Fen". I know it must seem incredibly popular for SW, but you'll end up with Fenjir Fenheart from Fenris, challenged to a duel by Fenric.

 

Though maybe that's just me - I'm incredibly picky when it comes to names and tend to spend days or weeks when looking for one...  :lol:

 

One tool I tend to use for this kind of quest is behindthename.com, though. Maybe it could prove useful for you, too? Here is a configuration that might fit to Space Wolves.

 

I also want to make him worship a chaos god though I don't want, but I don't mind Khorne. What god should I choose? Or maybe I shouldn't choose any god?

 

The Red Corsairs are ... Khorne? Or Chaos Undivided? I'm not sure myself at the moment.

 

For characteristics and personality, I suppose you could attempt to "backtrace" his past and gauge likely traits from that. What could have driven him to change sides, was it a grudge/jealousy, or was he really just afraid, or a mixture of both? Either way, how about if you make him somewhat defensive in his justifications, in that he actually attempts to explain himself to the players even though deep down he knows they'll never going to let him live? He could have spent the years lying to himself, convincing himself that he did the right thing, and now he could taunt the players in a similar way. Perhaps even insulting his former Chapter, making up half-true claims about supposed weaknesses as if those were what drove him from their midst, rather than his own weakness. In short, make him an arrogant bastard who just doesn't want to acknowledge his time is finally up.  ;)

 

"You fools! Still you are willing to lay down your lifes for an Imperium that died together with the Emperor. Old Logan is just too afraid to challenge our true enemies!"

 

Just an example off the top of my head.


Edited by Lynata, 06 July 2014 - 02:02 AM.

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#58 Misha

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 03:47 AM

Great, I can imagine him now!

 

Hmm, I'd say drop at least one "Fen". I know it must seem incredibly popular for SW, but you'll end up with Fenjir Fenheart from Fenris, challenged to a duel by Fenric. Lynata said this.

 

Yeah, I was going to edit that but I got busy. It popped into my head, only took me a few seconds to make up. I'm the same when it comes to names. Maybe not as picky but it takes me ages to get anywhere.

 

The Red Corsairs are ... Khorne? Or Chaos Undivided? I'm not sure myself at the moment. Lynata said this.

 

I think they are chaos undivided, or maybe they are all of them mixed into one big heap of bastards. Can't tell. I don't know much about Huron apart from that a grey knight killed him but he actually killed his fake double (slippery ****).

 

For characteristics and personality, I suppose you could attempt to "backtrace" his past and gauge likely traits from that. What could have driven him to change sides, was it a grudge/jealousy, or was he really just afraid, or a mixture of both? Either way, how about if you make him somewhat defensive in his justifications, in that he actually attempts to explain himself to the players even though deep down he knows they'll never going to let him live? He could have spent the years lying to himself, convincing himself that he did the right thing, and now he could taunt the players in a similar way. Perhaps even insulting his former Chapter, making up half-true claims about supposed weaknesses as if those were what drove him from their midst, rather than his own weakness. In short, make him an arrogant bastard who just doesn't want to acknowledge his time is finally up.  ;) Lynata said this.

 

Interesting. I was thinking about that and heres a brief summary. Oh, thanks for the website, I'll recomend it to my friends.

 

Gunnar Baldr(meaning Warrior Prince): The son of the Warrlok peoples chief, he was always special, destined for greatness was what his father said. Since a young age he trained in fitness and war and so he got the name Gunnar Baldr at the age of ten. He was a handsome youth, strong and cunning. He was the eptitome of the Warrlock people. Until the Sharazak. Warrlocks allies betrayed them, joining together to destroy their once ally. This event only lasting one year shaped Gunnar strongly teaching to trust no one. His father died after bravely defending the people but Gunnar escaped. He ran and ran and ran. He saw trusted friends betray him in his journey to safety but hid his despair behind a mask of charm and friendship. He beat a stranger in a drinking competition but almost died from the mass of alchohal he drank. Fortunately the stranger was Space Wolf and so saved Gunnar. Impressed because no one ever beat him in a drinking contest before he took the twelve year old to the Space Wolf trials. He exceeded all expectations. Gunnar was enchanted by the Space Wolf way and took the vow, but the year of Sharazak left its mark. He respected his Blood Claw brethren but didn't trust them. It was his develpment that troubled Ulrik. So he trained Gunnar himself after Gunnars whole pack apart from himself was destroyed by traitor legioneries. He told no one what happened and how he survived. He was capable but was arrogant stressing the fact that he was a prince. Ulrik was happy when Gunnar finished his tutelage under the old chaplain, but he was uneasy when he left. Something was wrong. Gunnar fought faithully until one day. The day he left the Emperor. He said that Lorgan was weak and that the rest were foolish. He said he was right and strong and they were weak. It is time to destroy this dirty mark on the history of the Space Wolves. Show no mercy because none shall be shown to you.

 

Still unrefined but any suggestions are welcome. I didn't make a good reason for betraying the Emperor but I am still working on that. I am fine with Chaos gods that don't fit with the Red Corsairs. He could have left them even betrayed them... Yes! I might make the Red Corsairs trying to kill him also. That might work quite well.


Edited by Misha, 06 July 2014 - 05:34 PM.


#59 Dr. Quinn

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 08:09 PM

I really liked a lot of the answers in here, and it really got me thinking.  I think that, for me and my views on it, the person who said the comment about squirrels almost had the right of it, albeit a bit too simplified.  I like to think that the default view is something like that of a Beekeeper.  Bear with me, though, before you dismiss that as absurd.

 

For one, a Beekeeper's job is, ultimately, protecting the bees so they can keep being productive.  For individual beekeepers, the way they view their relationship with the bees can and will certainly vary.  Some will take care of them simply because it is their duty, and there is honor in performing your job well.  Some will take care of them solely for the benefit they provide.  Some may take care of them because they value bees specifically, or all living things in general.

 

Ultimately, though, the reason they take care of them, and their attitude towards the bees themselves, does not matter in the performing of their duties.  Their responsibility is to take care of them as a whole, so when a bear or honey badger or beast shows up, they take care of it.  It's not that the bees are incapable of defending themselves, and certainly you aren't going to normally be hypervigilant and protect against random frogs, newts, spiders, and "lesser" threats, but they just suck at it so hard compared to what you can do, so when it's time to get serious, no matter what your thoughts are about them, you show up and do your job.

 

At the same time, since the responsibility is the protection of them as a whole, if a hive suffers blight or disease, you destroy it so that it does not spread to the rest of them.  You may feel regret or loss in doing so, either because you're killing all them, or because of the loss of their productivity, but you still need to do it, regardless of any moral or ethical qualms, because not doing it will only lead to a much worse situation later on.  Similarly, if one stings you, it dies, and barring unusual moral positioning, you do not feel great remorse that one individual bee has died.  It shouldn't have stung you, after all.

 

The parallels are hopefully obvious, but in 40k, it is much the same- the role of the space marines is to protect all of humanity, not one particular human, and so they choose to devote their efforts to things that humanity cannot defend against itself.  That in and of itself implies a kind of separation from humanity as a whole, which is certainly true.  It's not like they actively think of themselves as better than regular humans, they don't need to in the same way that we don't bother thinking of ourselves as better than bees.  They *know* they are better, but they also know that their sacred duty, the purpose of their existance, is to defend them.  How they handle that knowledge varies from marine to marine and chapter to chapter, and that's where the whole thing comes in, in terms of some chapter's "paternal" attitude, some chapter's "scornful" attitude, etc.

 

My whole point with all of this is that yes, ordinary humans matter, because they have to- that's the whole point of space marines.  No Iron Hands is ever going to exterminatus a hive world for the fun of it, and no space wolf or ultramarine is going to fail to slay a cabal of chaos cultists, they have to do their job regardless of their feelings.  If you want a less extreme (and  worse) analogy you could compare it to a bodyguard.  It doesn't matter what you think of the guy, you still have to do your job.  And in terms of what you think of the guy, whether you shed a tear as you pop a bolt shell into a tainted cultist and cry yourself to sleep after ordering the extermination of a world, or coldly calculate the impact its loss will have on the manufacturing ability of nearby systems, well, that depends on the individual. 

 

Bear in mind too, even though chapters have trends and patterns in their beliefs, views, and emotions, it's bad storytelling to reduce those things down to a chapter level, so don't be afraid to have the iron hands who believes that any loss is unacceptable, and seeks to save every life possible.  Such a character may also have an unhealthy obsession with preserving ammunition and consummables, and never fire 2 shots when 1 will do, as he carries that philosophy over into more "conventional" iron hands thought patterns, but they're not all remorseless in their destruction of that which they see as "weak".  Similarly, the Salamander who *was* extremely protective of life, seeking to valiantly defend all of humanity 200 years ago, may now be at the point at which he has become jaded by the never ending tide of foes, and humanity's inability to properly defend itself, and as a result is perhaps a bit too fast to pull the trigger on his flamer, regardless of what guardsmen may be in the way, as his priorities have shifted to the eradication of foes, trying desperately to contribute towards exterminating them faster than they can reappear.

 

Sorry for the wall o' text.

tl;dr: Humanity is a bunch of bees.


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#60 Quietus1

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 11:33 AM

I liked it back when there was more mystery and ambiguity about the nature of the Emperor and his supposed divinity. Miracles were less blatant, atheists and separatists actually had a foot to stand on, and there was always a possibility that the Chaos worshippers are right all along. 

Now days everybody knows the Imperium are the good guystm even when they are screaming for hatred, genocide and ignorance. Nobody even bats an eyelid anymore. You can have Inquisitor Hitler authorizing the exterminatus of planet Auschwitz to protect the purity of the human race from xeno infiltration, and everyone is HOO HAH IMPERIUM **** YEAH! 

 

But hey, at least they aren't Tau. 

 

Agreed. The games I play in/run operate under the above.


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