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Assaulting Earth Itself


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#41 Adeptus-B

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 10:13 AM

Appologies to Venkelos for further derailing the original point of this thread, but…

FieserMoep said:

…Just have a look at the tyranids, the big badass enemies of the 5th edition. They eat nearly everthing…

I've been slowly working my way throught he newest 40K Rulebook, and it seems to me that the background section is trying to 'walk back' the scale of the Tyranid threat. In 5th Ed. it was all but stated outright that the Tyranids would, with absolute certainty, destroy the galaxy; but the newest one includes two references to major Imperial victories against the Hive Fleets that make the 'nids sound like standard bad guys, on par with Orks. Am I reading too much into that, or is that everyone else's impression, too?



#42 Kasatka

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:42 AM

Cheddah said:

I had the players of my Rogue Trader campaign stop by Holy Terra on buisiness recently and this was the standing force I described defending the Solar System:

Luna - Terra's Moon, converted into a super battlefortress. Has arrays of super macrocanons and nova canons and generally enough firepower to cut down a battlecruiser.

The Eternal Dominatus - Super Battlecruiser, one of three still in service in the imperium. So massive and ancient it churns the warp around it, making it difficult for opposing ships to warp into a system under it's watch.

Planetary Voidshields - Enough to weather a few rounds of bombardment.

Phase Shields - Protecting the Imperial Palace itself, all but indestructable to planetary bombardment.

10 Battleships

30 Heavy Cruisers

2 Imperial Fist Battle Barges

40 Cruisers

100 Raiders

Legions of Smaller Non-Warp Capable Ships - Count as hazards in space combat.

Said 'non-warp capable ships' are more often than not far more armoured or weaponized than naval ships. System defence ships can be more heavily armoured than light cruisers and carry comparable firepower, yet only be the size of a frigate. And they do this by not having over a third of the ship's space taken up by massive warp engines and gellar fields.

Speaking as a Rogue Trader who has gone up against both regular naval classes of ships and system defence ships, i would say i would always rather fight regular frigates and light cruisers - my ships come out of the fight better off.


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Only those that prosper may truly judge what is sane.


#43 puenboy

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:45 PM

If you try to crash land a ship into Terra, you will be vaporized out of the sky/space. The Emperor IS God to the Imperium, and if there is any possible threat, even so very little threat, it would warrant for virus bombs (they won't virus bomb Terra, but you get the point)

 

No one enters Terra until they are cleared. If anyone tries, for any reason, they will be destroyed. 



#44 Nikollo

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:06 PM

Sorry if this is off topic, but it seems the OP's question has already been answered, so…

crisaron said:

That was pre Ward fluff too… When the Necron where cool anyways and working for the C'Tan.

Now they are lame. I doubt that the all the fluff about a big part of the mars priest secrelty workshipping the Dragon (a C'Tan) still stands.

Got to hate Matt Ward

Ward cannot actually override such an integral element of that canon at this point in time. The Horus Heresy is the most consistent of the "canonized" 40k lore, and Graham McNiell's HH novel, Mechanicum, is quite clear that fact the Void Dragon is, indeed, on Mars. Even if Ward is given free license to muck up the GK and Necron lore in the Codecis, his fluff does not override the concrete nature of the HH as canonical 40k lore. The Void Dragon is on Mars.

That being said, the nature of the Omnissiah is a complicated matter. According to Warp-logic, as described in the Liber Chaotica, there are actually 3, maybe 4 Omnissiahs.

Most gods start as nebulous "spirits," a vacuum of identity in the Warp that must be filled. People believe in them and feed them with the psychic effluvia that feeds them, until they are strong enough to have a limited effect on the material universe. They do this to build themselves up, until their worship makes them effectively immortal, their worship (theoretically) never ceasing. Once a warp entity can perpetuate their existence in this manner they qualify as gods. (The Chaos Gods do not fit this model, except for the perpetuation of self, so the appelation "god" still does fit, as the last is the only real qualifier. The Emperor is also a god, but in a different way)

The concept of the Omnissiah is immediately divisible into three distinct "individuals": 1) The Omnissiah as an aspect of the Emperor, 2) The Omnissiah as his own Warp individuality, the one worshipped by those who do not believe the Emperor and the Omnissiah are aspects of one being, and 3) The Void Dragon, as placed on Mars, as described in the HH novel, Mechanicum.

A fourth Omnissiah may exist, if one considers the Omnissiah worshipped by religious members of the Dark Mechanicus to be separate from the 2nd Omnissiah described above (Ex: the hereteks in Ben Counter's second GK novel, Dark Adeptus).

 

But yeah, the Void Dragon as Omnissiah is still a thing.

 

Zappiel said:

aha!  Well thanx for that information, sir!  So, the horus heresy novels are…..proving to be a disappointment…..Horus beat up by the Emprah's bodyguard, eh?  Sad…..so much for Horus being a big bad……Dorn heresy's starting to sound more interesting…..it's always an arms race with wh40k, it seems - the next big thing is always better than what came before…… :(

Constantine Valdor defeated Horus in a friendly duel in the early stages of the Great Crusade. The HH Novels don't seem to be going in the direction of the Seige of Terra anytime soon. The duel between them is not reflective of Horus at the time of the Seige, nor should it be taken as such.

 

Zappiel said:

so…wait…we're fighting about who won the 13th Black Crusade?  Easy fix:  it was a tie!  Chaos got driven back, but they finally broke into Cadia…doubtless the Chaos stragglers will be hunted down (after causing much mayhem and misery), but Cadia will never be the same….the End Times indeed……

There has always been the presence of Chaos on Cadia. I would strongly recommend Aaron Dembski-Bowden's First Heretic. It's a wonderful read.



#45 Visitor Q

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:51 AM

Besieging the surface of Terra would be incredibly difficult because of the numerous ground defences not to mention the labryinthine layout of the planet itself (One huge planet city reaching into the atmosphere…).

However the real defences of terra is the fact that it is not isolated unlike other Imperial worlds.  If it was attacked the Imperial forces would respond very quickly.  It is unlikely that any present enemy of the Imperium could muster a force large enough to take Terra before the rest of the Imperium responded.

I think the only exception would be the Tyranids.  What we know of them is that they can strike beneath the Galactic plane, have near limitless amounts of troops, evolve quickly and crucially when they attack a system they cut it off from communication.  If the Tyranids ever got a clear run at Terra then they might just be able to overrun it.  It would be an epic battle.

 



#46 Misha

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 01:59 AM

One word: Impossible!



#47 Robin Graves

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 04:31 PM

One thing is for sure, you'll need (Iron Warriors demon primarch) perturabo to do it.

Come to think of it... is that webway portal in the palace dungeon still open?

 

PS my custome chapter (i made for deathwatch) "the Champions of the Emperor" have a full compagny on a battlebarge in systhem at all times. (they are Ultramarines succesor chapter obssessed with the heresy. They have a massive guilt complex because the ultramarines weren't there at the siege of Terra and refuse to wield lightning claws- as this was the type of weapon used to wound Emperor)

 

While we are on the subject of impossible events: What if the Ultramarines and their successor chapters would turn against the Imperium? Not flat out go traitor but more "the high lords are stupid, the inquisition is corrupt, the imperium is stagnating, we need to rebuild this dump the way Roboute Guiliman made Ultramar". Think about it, Horus commanded half of the space marine legions, but in the 41st millenium 3/4th of all chapters have Ultramarine geneseed.



#48 Gurkhal

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 12:04 AM

Well since Chaos took all but the smallest continent on Cadia I don't think the Imperium is going to take it back without a major push, in which case more resources will have to be drained from other parts, which will leave these other regions open to xenos and heretics which in turn will force the Imperium into another hard fight as they get back and so on.



#49 DeathByGrotz

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 03:59 AM

Chaos can resupply directly through the warp, once they have a presence on planet. They don't really need space ships except to kill other space ships. Personally, if the battlefield gothic thing was such a decisive victory for the imperium that it would negate the Cadian issue, I'm wondering why GW stopped the timeline after the Cadian event.

 

As for Terra's defenses, it may do well to point out space has more approach vectors than the planetary orbits, so any defensive force would have to be arranged spherically. This is likely only feasable in the proximity of what you actually want to defend, namely the planets. The consequence of this is that the defensive force is likely a mixture of slow, orbital platforms and fast response ships, as well as 1-2 proper strike fleets to patch any holes.

 

On a personal security level, given the importance of Terra, it seems feasable to decree pilgrim-zones and terminate any unauthorized space travel to other locations. Authorized travel means hacking, bribing or mind controlling portions of the administratum.


Edited by DeathByGrotz, 25 August 2014 - 04:03 AM.


#50 Robin Graves

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 06:00 PM

I wonder what would happen if the necrons sent a Tombship with a tesseract prison full of c'tan shards straight into the Sol systhem. I admit there is a good chance the c'tan just turn on their necron jailers, but then again they might decide to check out that astronomican thingy...



#51 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 10:38 AM

Just as a point of 40K pseudotheology, I've never seen it indicated anywhere that belief causes a warp entity to exist. Warp entities are congealed emotions, not congealed beliefs. Everybody in the galaxy can believe in the Omnissiah and it does not make it real.

 

The process is

 

billions of souls feel generous --> generosity congeals in the warp --> Santa Claus comes into existence

 

NOT

 

billions of souls believe in Santa Claus --> Santa Claus comes into existence

 

(Incidentally, this is why fan narratives about the Emperor being or turning into a Chaos god don't make any sense.)


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 27 August 2014 - 10:43 AM.

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#52 Walkot

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 04:10 AM

So, sometimes I ask dumb, pointless questions; it's a weakness of mine, and this is probably going to fall into that category. What are the actual defenses of Earth itself probably like? If I wanted to deal a crippling blow to the Imperium, Terra would be an ideal target. This is irrelevant, I confess, as nothing in the RPGs could go further from where they happen than back to Terra, but if a plot was discovered, it could be an interesting twist. The Emperor rests there, but some of its protection might be "who'd be so nuts?", meaning some is a bit of a bluff. Now, if I was some roving Chaos Warband, with a big fleet of nasty, I wouldn't hold out much hope for my chances, but what if I was one mad person, either a psyker tainted by the Hive Mind, a servant of Choas willing to use "exotic" methods, or even a ship-established Genestealer Cult? What's to stop one small ship from landing on Earth, out in one of the arid slums, and let loose one or more Genestealers I might be carrying? There has to be limitless traffic above the ruined planet that was once the cradle of Mankind, with numerous warships of the Battlefleet Solar, Black Ships dropping off their psyker-quota, various Adepta craft ferrying envoys to or away, and pilgrimage ships bringing the faithful, or their descendants, to bask in the glory of the birth planet of the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind. My ship would hardly draw the notice of the Battlefleet, and Earth probably doesn't have too many Space Marines. One little ship wouldn't seem to hard to land, or force-crash, and let loose a plague that could spell the doom of the Imperium. One Genestealer laying low + 30 years of peace among the crime-ridden slums of Earth (for being the capitol of the Imperium, Terra is no garden spot to live) could equal a very hard to get rid of Genestealer Cult, and while it might not topple Earth, as it would many colonies, it could draw a Hive Fleet. Such a force might even, through it's Shadow in the Warp, blot out the Astrnomicon at it's source, crippling much of the Imperium for as long as it takes to dislodge the Tyranid menace. I'm not saying Earth would fall, but it MIGHT, and it would be a big hit to the Imperium everywhere else, from logistics to morale.

One might say "yeah, well if it was that easy, someone would've already done it, you dimwit. They've been writing this stuff for several decades now", and that would be true, but I don't see the hard part for the aggressor, if their threat is so small, and seemingly trivial. Thoughts?

i think that the first problem, was to find a route to TERRA not defended and unguarded....






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