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Several questions to be clarified


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#21 Totalgit

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:10 PM

Have the bolded words below been added to the core set rules?

Income Bonuses and Penalties
Some cards (mostly locations) have a large gold
coin marked with a value of +X or -X in their
rules text. These cards modify the income value
on your revealed plot card, even when kneeling.

Its just seemed odd to me that income mentioned penalties and initiative doesnt.



#22 Bomb

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:29 AM

If this is indeed the ruling, then does that mean Rhaegar's Harp basically removes the ability of removing any traits from the attached character?

Text:

"Attached character gains all Traits."



#23 Bomb

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:21 AM

Bomb said:

If this is indeed the ruling, then does that mean Rhaegar's Harp basically removes the ability of removing any traits from the attached character?

Text:

"Attached character gains all Traits."

Unless of course it faces the counter of Condemned…

Text:

"Attached character loses all Traits and immunities. If you win dominance, kill attached character."

I presume they'd cancel each other out and leave behind the original Traits on the character like before, but the question remains the same.



#24 Saturnine

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:33 AM

Uncle Joker said:

(3) I would assume that Ktom is thinking of "Lose each trait" when he said it means "loses one instance of each trait."

That seems like an odd statement to me, because I can't recall any "lose each trait" effects in the card pool that ktom could have referenced there.



#25 tarkin84

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:50 AM

So… what's the final word on this? Thanks in advance.



#26 livingEND

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:33 AM

(1) Burned and Pillaged affects KOTHH because it isn't an income bonus.
(2) "each trait/keyword/…" = "one instance of every of those traits/keywords/…"
      "all traits/keywords/…" = "all instances of those traits/keywords/…"

I want to thank Damon for finally clarifying (2) but want to punch him into his faces for (1).



#27 Hamster Friend

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 10:13 AM

Does Burned and Pillaged still apply a gold penalty if you attach it to a location that doesn't produce gold? I know ever since it's been played as if it does, but I've recently been told that the rules were clarified on it and it has to actually modify something with a gold bonus on it.



#28 ktom

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 02:07 PM

Hamster Friend said:

Does Burned and Pillaged still apply a gold penalty if you attach it to a location that doesn't produce gold? I know ever since it's been played as if it does, but I've recently been told that the rules were clarified on it and it has to actually modify something with a gold bonus on it.

The attached location gains the "-1 Gold" icon. It's not like you have to have a "+1" icon before you can gain a "-1" icon.

So no, Burned and Pillaged does not need to be attached to a location with a printed gold bonus icon. The "-1 Gold" modifies the income count, not the gold modifiers on the card that gains the icon from the attachment.



#29 Slothgodfather

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 08:12 AM

livingEND said:

 

(1) Burned and Pillaged affects KOTHH because it isn't an income bonus.
(2) "each trait/keyword/…" = "one instance of every of those traits/keywords/…"
      "all traits/keywords/…" = "all instances of those traits/keywords/…"

I want to thank Damon for finally clarifying (2) but want to punch him into his faces for (1).

 

BTW, This thread was resurrected because of this other thread about pentoshi & lost oasis.

 

(1) makes perfect sense and I never understood why this wasn't the way it was always played.

(2) I don't find a single card that has the word "each" in it that involves removal of traits/keywords so this "clarification" seems rather meaningless to me.  The options appear to be "all keywords/traits", "all except non-X keywords", "those keywords" or "a trait/keyword".

Earlier it was mentioned that Pentoshi created a lasting effect of losing "all keywords for the phase" meant that even keywords gained later on in that phase were also lost.  Does this mean the use of Deceit would cause any keywords gained after it was played to also be lost and to also be transfered to the character of choice?  Text for Deceit "Until the end of the phase, the character of your choice loses all keywords and the other character gains each of those lost keywords."

Banner Bearer is another card that transfers "all traits" "until the end of the phase".  Does this mean any gained keywords during the phase will also transfer or is the transfer only good at the time of the trigger? 

Balon's Host says "lose all non-immunity keywords" - even though that is a subset of "all keywords" does the above "all instances" rule apply?

Arya Stark says "Until the end of the phase, …, loses those keywords" with regards to stealth and renown.  If a character had printed stealth and stealth from a card effect and Arya triggers this ability - would they lose Stealth completely or just 1 instance of it.   The rest of Arya's ability says she gains "any keyword lost in this way".   In the above scenario, does that mean Arya wouldn't gain a keyword since the target still has stealth?

 

 



#30 Khudzlin

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:38 AM

Banner Bearer says "all keywords the chosen character has". This means however many instances the character has at the time the ability is resolved.

Balon's Host removes all keywords (except Immunity), however many times they are present.

Arya Stark (Core Set) affects only one instance each of Stealth and Renown.



#31 Slothgodfather

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:49 AM

ty for the response.  How about Deceit?

 

And does Pentoshi have a "last effect" so that it will continue to remove traits for the remainder of the phase?



#32 mdc273

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:54 AM

Slothgodfather said:

livingEND said:

 

(1) Burned and Pillaged affects KOTHH because it isn't an income bonus.
(2) "each trait/keyword/…" = "one instance of every of those traits/keywords/…"
      "all traits/keywords/…" = "all instances of those traits/keywords/…"

I want to thank Damon for finally clarifying (2) but want to punch him into his faces for (1).

 

BTW, This thread was resurrected because of this other thread about pentoshi & lost oasis.

 

(1) makes perfect sense and I never understood why this wasn't the way it was always played.

(2) I don't find a single card that has the word "each" in it that involves removal of traits/keywords so this "clarification" seems rather meaningless to me.  The options appear to be "all keywords/traits", "all except non-X keywords", "those keywords" or "a trait/keyword".

Earlier it was mentioned that Pentoshi created a lasting effect of losing "all keywords for the phase" meant that even keywords gained later on in that phase were also lost.  Does this mean the use of Deceit would cause any keywords gained after it was played to also be lost and to also be transfered to the character of choice?  Text for Deceit "Until the end of the phase, the character of your choice loses all keywords and the other character gains each of those lost keywords."

Banner Bearer is another card that transfers "all traits" "until the end of the phase".  Does this mean any gained keywords during the phase will also transfer or is the transfer only good at the time of the trigger? 

Balon's Host says "lose all non-immunity keywords" - even though that is a subset of "all keywords" does the above "all instances" rule apply?

Arya Stark says "Until the end of the phase, …, loses those keywords" with regards to stealth and renown.  If a character had printed stealth and stealth from a card effect and Arya triggers this ability - would they lose Stealth completely or just 1 instance of it.   The rest of Arya's ability says she gains "any keyword lost in this way".   In the above scenario, does that mean Arya wouldn't gain a keyword since the target still has stealth?

 

 

Quick addendum to Banner Bearer because of timing. Note that the "until end of phase" is at the end of the sentence. This is currently consistent with non-lasting effects. This means that the card which gains traits from banner bearer will only gain those traits being transferred at the time the ability resolves. It will not gain traits added on later.

I'm actually going to say the flip on Arya Stark and this probably needs to be debated/discussed. Arya specifically says "loses those keywords". This would appear to be a sub-category of "all keywords". The sub-category would be "all-stealth" or "all-renown". Note that the "until end of phase" comes before the effect. This is consistent with the phrasing used for lasting effects and would mean that the precedent is there that this would revoke Stealth or Renown with permanency for the phase. Additionally, if they tried to give the character Stealth or Renown, Arya would get additional instances of the chosen word.

For Deceit, the "until end of phase" is before the effect again. This should indicate a lasting effect. Based on the wording of the card, it should result in any keywords gained after the playing of Deceit being lost and gained by the other character.

As far as how I'd probably actually rule it as a TO:

Banner Bearer - As stated here.

Arya - Steal one instance and gain one instance (this is the current, dominant interpretation of the card as I am aware)

Deceit - Lose all instances, but not affecting further instances.

I believe those current rulings would likely be inconsistent with newer interpretations/observations of the rules, but would be more consistent with expectations from players.






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