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What would you think of a ground unit version?


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#21 meekor

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:11 AM

hmmm focus the Ion cannon at an At- At …instead of a starcruiser lol….Never give up ,Never surrender


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#22 Zehmyan

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:04 PM

 My idea would not be to have figures for soldiers. Just tokens, lovely stackable tokens.

Keep it vehicle based like X-Wing is.

Use Squad tokens for characters and soldiers, which would be made in the same manner as pilot cards, matched to squad tokens on the map.

I would assume it would be a stand alone game, but just allow certain cross overs. Some ships may be able to land, but have no ariel maneuverability, others could fly but not land, such as TIE Bombers, while others like Z-95 Headhunters could be completely compatible. Meanwhile, some ariel vehicles like cloud cars, couldn't cross over into space any more than a droid tank could.

There are a lot of Ground units like tanks and speeders and cannons and troop transports and giant robots and gunships that a game like this could capitalize on.



#23 Hrathen

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 05:30 PM

IG-58 said:

Well, actually, if I could snap my fingers and have my druthers, I'd go for 1/144. It'd be perfectly manageable; if you want an idea, look no further than F-Toys. The ground vehicles in that line consist of the AT-AT, AT-ST, AT-TE, TIE Crawler, AAT, snowspeeder and even a trooper on speeder bike. Oh, and Lord Vader. The scale works real nice for a table.

1/270 would allow for bigger, cheaper combats and a smaller required play area; but yeah, infantry pretty much disappears at that size. 1/144 is really the smallest size where foot units are recognizable, and viable as miniatures.

At those scales how would you handle infantry?


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#24 Hrathen

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 05:32 PM

ThadiusCole said:

I think a ground war version of the game would work better with the Clone wars setting since a majority of those films and animated series focus on the ground battles.  The galactic civil war would be hard to balance when you have one side bringing massive assault walkers and the other fields volunteer soldiers and the odd fixed gun emplacement.  At least in the space combat area both sides have advantages over the other but neither are the outright winners in any regard.  Ground combat would be a slaughter for the imperials everytime, unless the fighting was on Endor of course.

I agree with others that if FFG did decide on a ground version then DUST style models and expansions would suit even if the scale wasn't accurate.  But let's get all of FFG's attention on adding as many starfighters as possible before we head down to the planet's surface yeah :)

I have to agree.  When you think about it, the battle of Hoth was what 6 AT-AT's against the massed ground forces of the Rebel Alliance.  And all the Rebels could hope for was successful retreat.


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#25 Hrathen

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 05:35 PM

Zehmyan said:

 My idea would not be to have figures for soldiers. Just tokens, lovely stackable tokens.

 

 

But so much of the cool land based fighting is done by people.  Not just Jedi, there are more types of storm trooper than you can shake a stick at.


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#26 Battle Damage

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 05:37 PM

There are examples out there of 6mm (and even 2mm) infantry miniatures that are still recognisable interpretations of the subjects they model - Epic 40K was around about this scale IIRC. I can't recall any examples that are pre-painted though.



#27 Hrathen

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 05:40 PM

Battle Damage said:

There are examples out there of 6mm (and even 2mm) infantry miniatures that are still recognisable interpretations of the subjects they model - Epic 40K was around about this scale IIRC. I can't recall any examples that are pre-painted though.

There are some.  Flames of War is a good example.  But I have to disagree with Epic.  Space marine squads look like mushroom patches.


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#28 Battle Damage

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:11 AM

Flames of War is 15mm (about 1:100), as the ridiculous amount of tiny IS-2 tanks sitting in my wardrobe will atest. Dropzone Commander is 10mm - something like that might be a better fit. I disagree with you about Epic: The Space Marines are recognisable as Space Marines and the Orks are recognisable as Orks. I even managed to do a conversion on an Ork, swapping a gun for a power-fist. Each to their own I guess. I just hope if ground version of this game comes, it's got the right scale to have a bunch to allow me to do a bunch of AT-ATs wailing on a Jawa sand-crawler. I'm sure we can all agree on that…



#29 Hrathen

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:44 AM

Battle Damage said:

Flames of War is 15mm (about 1:100), as the ridiculous amount of tiny IS-2 tanks sitting in my wardrobe will atest. Dropzone Commander is 10mm - something like that might be a better fit. I disagree with you about Epic: The Space Marines are recognisable as Space Marines and the Orks are recognisable as Orks. I even managed to do a conversion on an Ork, swapping a gun for a power-fist. Each to their own I guess. I just hope if ground version of this game comes, it's got the right scale to have a bunch to allow me to do a bunch of AT-ATs wailing on a Jawa sand-crawler. I'm sure we can all agree on that…

Epic Figs are recognizable, but I don't think they look cool.  For me at least, looking cool is a big part of mini games.


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#30 CaptainRook

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:15 AM

ThadiusCole said:

 

I think a ground war version of the game would work better with the Clone wars setting since a majority of those films and animated series focus on the ground battles.  The galactic civil war would be hard to balance when you have one side bringing massive assault walkers and the other fields volunteer soldiers and the odd fixed gun emplacement.  At least in the space combat area both sides have advantages over the other but neither are the outright winners in any regard.  Ground combat would be a slaughter for the imperials everytime, unless the fighting was on Endor of course.

I agree with others that if FFG did decide on a ground version then DUST style models and expansions would suit even if the scale wasn't accurate.  But let's get all of FFG's attention on adding as many starfighters as possible before we head down to the planet's surface yeah :)

 

 

 

I agree.  No one would ever play rebels because you'd have a swarm of identical Rebel Soldiers against a highly diverse selection of Imperial Troops.  As much as I'd love to see Storm/Snow/Scout/Dark Troopers, AT-ATs, AT-STs, it wouldn't be fun going up against the 'wide' selection of Hoth Soliders, Endor Commandos, two types of Turrets and Ewoks.

I also think Dust has a great scale for itself, but that scale is too big for a SW minis game.  The system is solid, though.


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#31 IG-58

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:30 AM

Hrathen said:

IG-58 said:

 

Well, actually, if I could snap my fingers and have my druthers, I'd go for 1/144. It'd be perfectly manageable; if you want an idea, look no further than F-Toys. The ground vehicles in that line consist of the AT-AT, AT-ST, AT-TE, TIE Crawler, AAT, snowspeeder and even a trooper on speeder bike. Oh, and Lord Vader. The scale works real nice for a table.

1/270 would allow for bigger, cheaper combats and a smaller required play area; but yeah, infantry pretty much disappears at that size. 1/144 is really the smallest size where foot units are recognizable, and viable as miniatures.

 

 

At those scales how would you handle infantry?

As an experiment, I took the figures from the old MPC Hoth battleset model (the figures are roughly 1/144), and mounted them in pairs on small tiddly-wink bases. I count those as "fire teams." There are also prepainted 1/144 WWII figures made by Pegasus, generally $7 for a 10-pack. Not Star Wars, but there they are. They work at that size - but again, 1/144 would be the bare minimum for such resolution with troop minis.



#32 Hrathen

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:33 AM

My understanding of the Galactic Civil War is that most of the actual battles between the Rebels and the Empire were space battles, where the Alliance Hyper-capable fighters could hyper in make a quick attack against Imperial military forces and get out before they could get overwhelmed by overwhelming Imperial reinforcements.  (most of these battles are outside of the cannon, but I think the stratagy well supported.)

Ground battles on the other hand (except for the battle of Hoth and the battle of Endor) were relativly uncommon.  Imperial ground forces were just far to superior.  I can imagine small hit and run raids and special forces type opps, but few out and out ground battles.


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#33 CaptainRook

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:48 AM

 I just remember the video games Force Commander and Galactic Battlegrounds.  They really pushed the envelope to make battles during the GCW have any diversity and it was a clunky, terrible attempt.  Hoth was one of the most memorable moments of Star Wars, but let's be honest, to represent the Rebellion Era tactically or strategically we have the best system right here.  I think the opposite is true for the Clone Wars Era.  The space battles and fighters were kinda lame, but there is enough material to produce a Dust-style Tactical/Strategy Field game for a long time.  


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#34 IG-58

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:13 PM

O you are not dissing my Galactic Battlegrounds!!   :D

 



#35 MechaBri.Zilla

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:01 AM

ThadiusCole said:

I think a ground war version of the game would work better with the Clone wars setting since a majority of those films and animated series focus on the ground battles.  The galactic civil war would be hard to balance when you have one side bringing massive assault walkers and the other fields volunteer soldiers and the odd fixed gun emplacement.  At least in the space combat area both sides have advantages over the other but neither are the outright winners in any regard.  Ground combat would be a slaughter for the imperials everytime, unless the fighting was on Endor of course.

I agree with others that if FFG did decide on a ground version then DUST style models and expansions would suit even if the scale wasn't accurate.  But let's get all of FFG's attention on adding as many starfighters as possible before we head down to the planet's surface yeah :)

 

I don't think this is necessarily true.  You're thinking of the major battles covered in film.  But the rebel alliance is essentially an insurgency.  Sure they would loose any battle where the Empire is able to actually bring its focused might down on them, but generally speaking, the Rebels would try not to allow that to happen.  They would keep mobile and try to keep their power spread out over a wide area, hitting the Empire where odds were more favorable, rather than concentrating on large confrontations.  Much like the war in Vietnam.  If the Viet Cong had come out and fought the US in a conventional war, they would have lost.  Instead they hit where odds were more favorable to them, and they wore the US out.

I have never gotten to deep into the EU stuff, so I may be missing something printed out elsewhere, but I always sort of assumed that importance of Hoth wasn't that the full rebellion was gathered there, but that the rebellions leadership was there.

At any rate, no war can be won without putting boots on the ground, so if the rebel strategy didn't include that at some point, then their strategy was to hope for luck to be on their side…  Which it was of course, they just called it the Force.  Of course, whatever there real strategies were, it's clear they were loosing until Endor.  So clearly as long as any rebel army includes Ewoks the Empire will be doomed.

 



#36 MechaBri.Zilla

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:21 AM

 Of course, I'm admittedly biased.  I really don't care for the prequel trilogy.  In fact, that's why I like this game so much and plan on trying out EotE when it comes out.  I have been missing classic Star Wars ever since Lucas started mucking around with the special editions.

I suppose a ground game with Clone Wars wouldn't be horrible, it just wouldn't be my first choice.  Also, if it came out I would consider it my personal mission to destroy any army that contained Gungans…  Now that I think about it, Clone Wars may be the way to go.  It might let me get some of my pent up aggression out. 

Still, I'd like to see more original trilogy support before that.



#37 CaptainRook

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:24 AM

IG-58 said:

O you are not dissing my Galactic Battlegrounds!!   :D

 

IG-58 said:

O you are not dissing my Galactic Battlegrounds!!   :D

 

 

That game stretched my tolerance.  Way too many WTF units and forcing balance in awkward ways.  

 

Mecha - I sympathize with you.  The Clone Wars stuff has pretty much overwhelmed every aspect of Star Wars, and while I didn't hate the prequels, I've begun to hate the 'bubblegum' feel of Star Wars that Clone Wars has brought to it.  


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#38 meekor

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:30 AM

well spoken indeed…….Flashbacks from a conflict that was a senseless bloody war ….The heart of any unit is the ground pounders  that held the ground firm beneath thier feet….“Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes. Of all the so-called natural human rights that have ever been invented, liberty is least likely to be cheap and is never free of cost.”
? Robert A. Heinlein, Starship Troopers …….Never give up ,Never surrender


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#39 Hrathen

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:38 AM

MechaBri.Zilla said:

ThadiusCole said:

 

I think a ground war version of the game would work better with the Clone wars setting since a majority of those films and animated series focus on the ground battles.  The galactic civil war would be hard to balance when you have one side bringing massive assault walkers and the other fields volunteer soldiers and the odd fixed gun emplacement.  At least in the space combat area both sides have advantages over the other but neither are the outright winners in any regard.  Ground combat would be a slaughter for the imperials everytime, unless the fighting was on Endor of course.

I agree with others that if FFG did decide on a ground version then DUST style models and expansions would suit even if the scale wasn't accurate.  But let's get all of FFG's attention on adding as many starfighters as possible before we head down to the planet's surface yeah :)

 

 

 

I don't think this is necessarily true.  You're thinking of the major battles covered in film.  But the rebel alliance is essentially an insurgency.  Sure they would loose any battle where the Empire is able to actually bring its focused might down on them, but generally speaking, the Rebels would try not to allow that to happen.  They would keep mobile and try to keep their power spread out over a wide area, hitting the Empire where odds were more favorable, rather than concentrating on large confrontations.  Much like the war in Vietnam.  If the Viet Cong had come out and fought the US in a conventional war, they would have lost.  Instead they hit where odds were more favorable to them, and they wore the US out.

I have never gotten to deep into the EU stuff, so I may be missing something printed out elsewhere, but I always sort of assumed that importance of Hoth wasn't that the full rebellion was gathered there, but that the rebellions leadership was there.

At any rate, no war can be won without putting boots on the ground, so if the rebel strategy didn't include that at some point, then their strategy was to hope for luck to be on their side…  Which it was of course, they just called it the Force.  Of course, whatever there real strategies were, it's clear they were loosing until Endor.  So clearly as long as any rebel army includes Ewoks the Empire will be doomed.

 

 

The goal of the Rebellion was to attack the Military infastructure of Empire so that the individual planets and systems could be free.  The Imperial Army is massive and powerful, many orders of magnitude more than the Rebel equivelent, but their task is much harder.  They are essentially an occupying force.  If the Rebels can just get the Imperial ground forces to simply leave, or more realistically just weaken them, then the locals can free themselves. 

Remember the whole purpose of the Deathstar was to keep the local systems under the foot of the Empire.


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#40 flvolunteer

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:51 AM

For Rebellion era ground combat I would suggest a 28-30mm skirmish game.  Further, I would advise that the game designer(s) reach back to West End Games' (WEG) Star Wars Miniature Battles (SWMB) for inspiration.  I've used my WotC miniatures with that system for several years and with great success.  The beauty of the system is that you can run 3-4 squads per side and have a truly satisfying game experience.  This is primarily because squads don't evaporate in a single round of shooting (assuming you are using some reasonable tactics).  Combat also takes into account many factors that the "fast paced" skirmish games tend to abstract or give only cursory consideration.  This lends itself quite well to "surgical strike" scenarios where Rebels are trying to damage Imperial military assets or raids where Imperials are interdicting Rebels and/or their activities.  We've also run scenarios with pirates, criminals, etc…, so the possibilities are endless.

I suggest SWMB because, as much as I like the rules, I would not be that excited to see a SW version of DUST: Warfare (even if I do understand the reasoning behind such an approach).  This is because there are already several fast action, heavily abstracted skirmish games on the market and I would love to see something with some depth to the game play.  However, I do like the idea of a simpler game that could act as a "stepping stone" to a more involved game that both share the same miniature base, much like they have done with DUST: Tactics transitioning to DUST: Warfare.  It is a great way to get new/young gamers ramped up on the hobby without overwhelming them in the beginning.

The obvious disadvantage for FFG producing a game in that scale is that the market is somewhat saturated with product from WotC.  What may work to their advantage is the non-collectible approach and the fact that there are several unit types that are not common and could net them some revenue.  Vehicles are the first thing to jump to mind, but there are also specialty units like the Scout troopers on Speeders, Stormies on Dewback, etc…  So, even the long-time collectors of WotC minis could be enticed to spend some money to fill in the holes in their collection.

All that being said, an epic scale game set around the Clone Wars is intriguing and something I would definitely be open to investing my game funds into.  It's not a scale I've tackled for sci-fi and could be lots of fun.

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