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the Future of Warhammer Invasion LCG (important!)


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#41 dwarvenpony

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:40 PM

I also agree with you. I think the large barrier to entry scares off many potential players. It would cost about $800 retail to get x3 of every card. I would never have started playing this game if I hadn't gotten a great deal on some used cards. Creating a precontructed deck for each faction is a great idea. Reprinting many of the best "rares" from the early sets inside them would also help many experienced players. I feel having competitive, ready-to-play $15 decks would entice new players into trying Warhammer.

I would love to see a true European Championships approved by FFG. Getting 100+ participants for it would be phenomenal.



#42 Entropy42

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:46 AM

Teokrata said:

New, revised rulebook is a part of my new core set and/or starter decks idea for the beginners to make Invasion easier to begin with and more popular with more clear rules.

The problem with Warhammer's rules is that they are pretty complicated (often for no good reason), and including everything in one giant rulebook with the core set would probably be too much for new players.  That said, once players get beyond the core set experience, there should be a better rules resource than the FAQ. 

 



#43 Fortep

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:52 PM

there will be really big tournament in Poland: Assault on Wroclaw 27-28/april/2013. as I know it is the biggest international tournament in the world. the info will be given soon, but if u think about coming to Poland for playing WHI, it is the best place and time.



#44 DaniCarre

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:00 AM

 Agree from Spain!



#45 Mamut

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 09:42 PM

Well it's a sad that I wont have a chance to defend my vice-european champ title this year. I support what Teo says in his post. This game still has a big potential and big deluxe expansions would be really great,because meta would be more stable.



#46 Toqtamish

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 07:11 AM

Tubbyfu said:

Teokrata said:

 

.Crux. said:

 

 +1 vote for Teo and + 1 for the German community counter. :)

 

 

It is very nice to see how many players from Europe want to keep Invasion "alive"! I have some ideas about international tournaments in Europe, but it is too early to speak about that… by the way - where are players not from Poland, Germany, Italy or France? Where are players from USA? Jeremy?

 

 

+1 for more support in Canada .. My friends and I are really into the game, but we're a small playgroup (4 people) .. one of my local stores stopped carrying up to date battlepacks and had to special order them for me from their supplier.

on the bright side: The other store only carrys one or two packs and sells out immediately, so somebody must be playing besides us .. but w/ lack of organized play its hard to find these other people who play the game around here

 

Why not order the organized playkits yourselves and do some OP that way ? If you email FFG they might set you up with a B2B account so you can do that. That is what I did for our area in Nova Scotia.



#47 HappyDD

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 08:59 AM

Toqtamish said:

our area in Nova Scotia.

Nova Scotia? Other Canadians? I thought we were the only ones out here in Calgary. PM sent!



#48 Toqtamish

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:12 PM

HappyDD said:

Toqtamish said:

 

our area in Nova Scotia.

 

 

Nova Scotia? Other Canadians? I thought we were the only ones out here in Calgary. PM sent!

Got it and accepted and replied to you.



#49 Juzam66

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:58 AM

I agree and support Teo and i think majority of french player too.



#50 Katsuyori

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:40 AM

Katsuyori (dwells in Germany) also supports Teokrata´s idea.



#51 rzarectz

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:51 PM

As a North American I mostly agree with Teo's concerns, and I really envy your communities, count yourselves lucky!

 

The cost to get into the game is certainly the biggest problem for the mature LCGs. Not many people are going to invest $500+ in a game they don't know if they like and they're not sure they can find more than their girlfriend to play against. It's even easier to try out Magic, because they have so many different ways to get into the game and a player base almost anywhere. This alone should raise alarm bells for FFG.

 

It seems to me that the purest way to provide access to, and market the LCGs would be to sell custom packs down to the individual cards through some sort of online selection and distribution process. Ie allow players to buy cards individually! Theoretically, to me, that would be awesome. Imagine how easy it would be to get into the game at a good price, and on a competitive level. What a great way to appeal to disgruntled former Magic players by saying “You want a card? Buy it at base cost! Any card you like!!” That to me would capture the LCG concept perfectly..

 

Unfortunately this is probably unrealistic since this customization process would be really hard to pull off as a distributor. So what type of middle ground can be found? In my opinion, cheap starter packs should be created, logically for each race. But additionally structured around certain themes or core mechanics of the more commonly used decks for each race. For example, a Verena custom pack, where by you can buy all the cards often associated with a Verena deck. This wouldn't have to be limited to a 50 card pack by any means. To keep the customization alive they could make these packs 100 cards or so, of all the cards that are somewhat complementary to the mechanic. In addition to a variety of “housekeeping” cards that the race uses. These types of decks could be created for numerous themes from each race, eg. Orc rush, Dwarf Reclaim, DE control, etc etc. It would be a great way to get into the game, even competitively so, but also maintain the element of deck customization that gives it a personal feel. Further it would maintain the superiority in options for the players who have bought all the cards, which is important too.

 

That's my 2 cents on how FFG could get more entry into the aging LCGs. But I'm sure there are still lots of other things they could do outside of new entry packs, such as better exposure/marketing, and more casual friendly playstyles built in, such as multiplayer..



#52 Toqtamish

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:47 AM

rzarectz said:

 

The cost to get into the game is certainly the biggest problem for the mature LCGs. Not many people are going to invest $500+ in a game they don't know if they like and they're not sure they can find more than their girlfriend to play against. It's even easier to try out Magic, because they have so many different ways to get into the game and a player base almost anywhere. This alone should raise alarm bells for FFG.

 

You don't need to drop $500. You drop $40 on a core set. Or use a friends.

 



#53 Toqtamish

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:47 AM

double post

 

 



#54 rzarectz

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:47 AM

Toqtamish said:

rzarectz said:

 

The cost to get into the game is certainly the biggest problem for the mature LCGs. Not many people are going to invest $500+ in a game they don't know if they like and they're not sure they can find more than their girlfriend to play against. It's even easier to try out Magic, because they have so many different ways to get into the game and a player base almost anywhere. This alone should raise alarm bells for FFG.

 

You don't need to drop $500. You drop $40 on a core set. Or use a friends.

 

 

Im talking about players who want to be able to play competitively.. Of course there's a large group of players out there who only have the core set and play it with their friends every once in a while like they do Settlers of Catan or Monopoly. But I think its implicit that we're not talking about these "treat it like a board game" type players in this thread. Not to be harsh but these players dont really matter, because as competitive players we never see them.



#55 Toqtamish

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:40 PM

rzarectz said:

But I think its implicit that we're not talking about these "treat it like a board game" type players in this thread. Not to be harsh but these players dont really matter, because as competitive players we never see them.

Wow, so much wrong with that statement. You may not see them but they help keep the game afloat without people casually buying the game it would be canceled for lack of sales. So yes they do matter.



#56 Teokrata

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 02:30 AM

I agree that starter decks or packs allowing to play almost after purchase are the most efficient way to invite new players to the game and keep card game LIVING



#57 rzarectz

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:23 AM

Toqtamish said:

 

 

"Wow, so much wrong with that statement. You may not see them but they help keep the game afloat without people casually buying the game it would be canceled for lack of sales. So yes they do matter."

 

 

 

Do you really believe this? Let me give you an example to show you why this is totally untrue. Lets assume that 80% of players who have ever bought into WI have only bought the core set, and 20% have bought every WI product availible to date. I think this is a pretty generous assumption of the prevalence of core set casuals relative to competative players. In reality there are lots of players between these figures but If we average it out I think these are pretty realistic player ratio statistics. 
 
Now lets assume good prices of say $30 for the core set, $20 for each Deluxe expansion, and $8/$12 for each 40 and 60 card battlepacks respectively. There are 3 deluxe expansions, 6 40-card battlepacks and 24 60-card battlepacks (ignoring eternal war). Many competative players have also bought multiple core sets as well as the 40-card enemy cycle packs, and the Ulthuan deluxe.  Lets assume that half of all competitive players have bought 3 copies of each of these so we can multiply money spent on these by two by competitives..
 
So, each type of player spends:
 
Casuals: $30 
 
Competitives: 30x2 + 20x2 + (8x6)x2 + 20x2 + 12x24 = $524
 
 
Assume 100 WI players for simplicity:
 
 
80 casual players x $30 = $2400 total reveneu from casuals. (18.6%)
 
20 competitive players x $524 = $10480 total revenue from competitives. (81.4%)
 
 
So now tell me what type of player is more important to FFG?? 
 
These numbers don't even take into account that most of these casuals bought into the game when WI was released 3 years ago. The amount of new casuals entering this game is now just a trickle of what it was in 2009.  It's the competitives that keep this game afloat.  If no one was buying these battlepacks then they wouldn't release them. Therefore FFG has a vested interest in keeping us happy. And a great way to keep us happy is to allow easy entrance into the competative scene, strengthening these communities. In my opinion, as I wrote above, this would best be achieved by releasing mechanic based starter packs. There's probably a lot of other ways to get people in, but certainly not hoping for some poor saps to show up with their brand new copy of the core set..

 

 


#58 Toqtamish

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:07 AM

What I know is that you saying an entire segment of the player base does not matter is incredibly rude and ignorant. Any argument you make in support of that kind of a statement is just ridiculous.

Also casuals can buy more than just the core box set so your numbers are not accurate. Not just "competitive" players will buy all of the expansions.

But what do I know, apparently I DON'T MATTER according to you.



#59 HappyDD

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:22 AM

As much as I'm enjoying the irony of the Invasion civil war starting on the "kumbaya" thread where people were originally saying what country they are from and how much they supported the idea of international support for the game, it really doesn't matter how we define players. If "Casual Player A" bought the core set in 2009 because it was shiny and new and they compulsively buy games, then good for them. They will probably not show up for a small local tournament for a variety of reasons. The comment "They don't matter because we never see them" was probably not to be interpreted as "if you don't own every Invasion card you are unimportant" which is disrespectful, probably more like "I am not taking them into consideration since the only reason I think the majority of people buy all the cards is to play competitively in groups", which might not be true.

I think Rzarectz means that it really sucks if a main reason Player A won't show is the distribution model and that they can't buy back up to a "competitive" level at a reasonable price. The idea of having a pack of, I dunno, 99 cards called "Forces of the Empire" or something, that gets you 3 copies all the really good Empire cards from across lots of cycles, for $40, is a really good idea. So is having a core set supplement pack that brings you up to 3 copies of each card if you buy it and the core set. So is having a dedicated core of organized play people at FFG who help local organizers and advertise like crazy for Warhammer Invasion. The ultimate direction depends on how many people would buy these non-existent packs or get into the game, which none of us know.

It's a catch 22, you can't build a community without having a way for new players to pick up cards, have a good time, and win some games; and you won't get the easy-access card distribution model without more demand coming from new players wanting to enter the game.

In our group all sorts of people are buying into Netrunner, which is new and shiny. Will they all be around 3 expansion cycles in? I don't know, but I know at that point it will be hard to get new people to play Netrunner. Maybe the LCG model is doomed to follow this cycle, with the exception of Game of Thrones (for whatever reason).

 



#60 rzarectz

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:52 PM

Toqtamish said:

 

What I know is that you saying an entire segment of the player base does not matter is incredibly rude and ignorant. Any argument you make in support of that kind of a statement is just ridiculous.

Also casuals can buy more than just the core box set so your numbers are not accurate. Not just "competitive" players will buy all of the expansions.

But what do I know, apparently I DON'T MATTER according to you.

 

 

Oh stop with the drama.. If you get so emotionally involved in your debates maybe you shouldn't post in online game forums. If you were approaching this reasonably you'd have understood that I didn't say your segment of the player base doesn't matter. I said they don't matter to competitive players, because generally casual core set only players never come out and play against competitives.  With respect to FFG, how much you matter to them is directly proportional to how much money you've spent on their products. They are not your grandmother they are a business. I showed with a gernerous division of the player base that even if they only make up 20% of players who've ever bought the core set, competitives still account for over 80% of WI revenue.  Argue all you want about the the exact numbers it won't change this contrast. If youre buying a lot of expansions then you are not really a casual "treat it as a board game" player are you? I think it was obvious that what I meant by a "casual player" is someone who hasn't bought more than the core set..  

I'm glad you enjoy the game as a casual with only a small subset of the cards, that's good for the game. But were talking about getting people into WI the customizable card game, not the board game. How to get more players out to WI organized play doesnt involve core set only players so why even bring them up..  






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