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Millennium Falcon FULLY Spoiled [VIDEO]


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#61 ScottieATF

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:17 PM

DrUnK3n_PaNdA said:

Am I the only one scratching their head over the Falcon's stats?

Really everything about it seemed totally fine to me until two things were brought up, firstly it's maneuver dial. I know it has to be viable on a small board, but as it is, the Falcon turns more sharply than an X-Wing and actually has more utility up close and in the K-turns. While it doesn't have the TIE's straight-up speed, it more than matches it in maneuverability, even exceeding it in some ways with a 1-distance straight maneuver which is extremely useful.

I'm not saying this is broken or OP or anything else, I'm just saying it doesn't make any sense. The Falcon was barely able to outrun a Star Destroyer in the movies and suddenly it's as fast as a starfighter? For me, I was worried from the start about seeing the Falcon and Slave I because I thought they might have 'imaginative' stats, which it seems like they certainly do. Making at least one of those two ships behave in the game differently than it should just because a main character is behind the wheel really kind of ruins the tactical feel of the game.

Secondly, and being an Imperial player you knew it would come up… Assault Missiles. First off, I don't think Imperial Swarm is broken. I've seen it played, I've seen it win and I've seen it beaten, and let's not forget Rebels won the biggest tournament thus far. For a silver-bullet counter, Assault Missiles have much further reaching consequences to the competitive metagame than just discouraging Imperial Swarm which some players felt was causing negative-play-experiences. Pilots with ANY abilities that have range on them will be less popular choices than they are now. Look at Howlrunner. She will be completely unplayable. She's only worth her points now in a swarm because after the first couple turns her ability will become situational at best. So why take her in a metagame where a few A-Wings with missiles will mean those first few turns are infinitely more hazardous for you if you fly a formation in order to actually take full advantage of Howlrunner's ability? Same goes for Garven or Dutch. Are the missiles only situational? God no. Even if you're not facing a swarmy or aura-based list, your opponent will still need to choose between taking excess damage on the approach or deploying spread out and making it easier for you to destroy their squadron in detail, while limiting their fire-arc overlap. My prediction is that every force will start running at least one missile-capable unit in order to control their opponent's deployment after all, if you don't you'll be disadvantaged since maximizing the overlap in your firing arcs is always the best deployment.

I hate to scream about the sky falling, but those missiles really shake up the metagame in a negative way.

If you hate to scream about the falling sky, then just don't do it.

You are making assumptions about a meta-game involving models that don't yet exist.  It's just to much thoery with no testing behind it.  FFG isn't perfect for sure, but they've done testing, at this point haven't.  Until you or I actually do some testing talking about the extreme impact something may have is really premature.

Yes the Assault Missiles will make flying in formation less advantageous.  Right now there is no reason not to.  Assault Missiles are at least something to think about.  Are even better missile packages going to make missile capable ships more attractive, yes of course they do.  But to say they are doing so in a negative way, with no way to really back that and an incomplete look at whats coming out, is really just not a workable conversation.



#62 Emrico

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:10 PM

  Also with the Assault Missiles and the sky falling…

i know the card comes with the Falcon. I assume that Slave I could have one. I can't tell for sure, but it doesn't look like the A-Wing gets the card.

How many people are going to buy multiple Falcons or Slave I's (if I'm correct in thinking it does not come with the A-Wing) to get enough cards for these to be game-breaking? (Our group only plays with cards we actually have). 

It will definitely make enemy units try to approach from outside the front arc of the ship!

Jim


 


Rebels: 3 YT-1300s, 6 X-Wings, 6 Y-Wings, 6 A-Wings, 6 B-Wings, 4 HWK-290s, 4 Z-95s, 3 E-Wings, 2 GR-75s, 1 CR-90
Imperials: 8 TIEs, 4 TIE Adv, 12 TIE Interceptors, 3 Firesprays, 6 TIE Bombers, 5 Lambdas, 3 TIE Defenders, 3 Phantoms

#63 Hrathen

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 09:07 AM

Emrico said:

  Also with the Assault Missiles and the sky falling…

i know the card comes with the Falcon. I assume that Slave I could have one. I can't tell for sure, but it doesn't look like the A-Wing gets the card.

How many people are going to buy multiple Falcons or Slave I's (if I'm correct in thinking it does not come with the A-Wing) to get enough cards for these to be game-breaking? (Our group only plays with cards we actually have). 

It will definitely make enemy units try to approach from outside the front arc of the ship!

Jim

 

But that actually makes the missile worse.  If the Assault missile is really tons better, then someone will show up to a tournament with a bunch of them.  The fact that most of us can't do it but some one will is actually a problem for me.


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#64 Doc Savage

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 09:49 AM

Hrathen said:

Emrico said:

 

  Also with the Assault Missiles and the sky falling…

i know the card comes with the Falcon. I assume that Slave I could have one. I can't tell for sure, but it doesn't look like the A-Wing gets the card.

How many people are going to buy multiple Falcons or Slave I's (if I'm correct in thinking it does not come with the A-Wing) to get enough cards for these to be game-breaking? (Our group only plays with cards we actually have). 

It will definitely make enemy units try to approach from outside the front arc of the ship!

Jim

 

 

 

But that actually makes the missile worse.  If the Assault missile is really tons better, then someone will show up to a tournament with a bunch of them.  The fact that most of us can't do it but some one will is actually a problem for me.

Well, like all things, the market will establish a price for these Assault Missiles cards. What do you think? $2? $5? How high can they go? Not higher than $30, because you could just buy another Falcon for that. People will also find strategies to counter them. Maybe there is a card in one of the other wave 2 ship packs that we haven't seen.

If it is too powerful it will probably get banned or limited for tournament play.

 

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#65 DrUnK3n_PaNdA

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:56 AM

ScottieATF said:

 

 

If you hate to scream about the falling sky, then just don't do it.

You are making assumptions about a meta-game involving models that don't yet exist.  It's just to much thoery with no testing behind it.  FFG isn't perfect for sure, but they've done testing, at this point haven't.  Until you or I actually do some testing talking about the extreme impact something may have is really premature.

Yes the Assault Missiles will make flying in formation less advantageous.  Right now there is no reason not to.  Assault Missiles are at least something to think about.  Are even better missile packages going to make missile capable ships more attractive, yes of course they do.  But to say they are doing so in a negative way, with no way to really back that and an incomplete look at whats coming out, is really just not a workable conversation.

 

 

The problem is formation flying is a HUGE part of what makes a number of Imperial builds work. Limiting potential viable strategies is a huge detriment to the meta. Ideally you want to see the largest variety of different squadrons to be tournament viable. I'm exceptionally worried that FFG listened to the complaints about the TIE swarm, which I don't think were founded in any kind of fact and made Assault Missiles to silver bullet it.

And let's be clear, it doesn't make formation flying 'less advantageous' it makes it tactical suicide. Remember that those extra hits caused by the splash are NOT avoidable. So for 4 points my opponent can take proton torpedoes, say they roll a minimum damaging roll. That's going to be one hit, one point of hull damage to one starfighter. Or with the deployment I use now that same roll would deal 6 damage (more damage that can be done by anything in the game presently without critical hits) with assault missiles, guaranteed, with no way to avoid that damage… for one point more. I would have to be an idiot to deploy that way against any opponent using missiles…  So that gives me two choices, choice one, I can spread out my firepower, not take assault missiles and be at a disadvantage since there's no incentive for my opponent to NOT deploy in a more advantageous way with overlapping firing arcs. My second option is to take assault missiles as well and force my opponent to play with the same deployment limitations I'm being forced into.

That's not really a theory. It's just the logical progression of strategy.

Now, this wouldn't be a problem in another sort of game like an LCG or CCG or something of the like, once you've signed up for a tournament you're locked into your deck. Unfortunately in X-Wing your deployment takes place AFTER you've seen your opponent's force composition, so the deployment won't change based on the fact that Assault Missiles are present in the game, as deck composition would in a card game. The threat of such a thing changes the risk/reward potential of different strategies and therefore adds diversity. In X-Wing, deployment will only be forced to change if you actually have Assault Missiles in your list.

But that actually makes the missile worse. If the Assault missile is really tons better, then someone will show up to a tournament with a bunch of them. The fact that most of us can't do it but some one will is actually a problem for me.

Also that. It's a huge problem that a potentially game-changing card costs essentially $20-30 depending on where you purchase it. So say I want to run 4 A-Wing with Assault Missiles list. I'm looking at $120 for that list. That's pretty absurd when your present squadrons cost 40-80 dollars… This essentially means whether you intend to use the falcon or not, you'll be stuck buying one for an auto-include card as long as you have missile-capable units in your squad.

Now, that the nay-saying is out of the way, I feel like Assault Missiles might've been only intended for use in larger ships. In Star Wars, Assault Missiles are only able to be mounted on larger ships, and they're too slow and sluggish to be used against starfighters properly. If you can only mount them on one ship per squad, and you have to spend something to the order of half your points on that model to use them, that's probably fine, but I'd need to see it played.



#66 magadizer

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:34 AM

 Mr. Panda, with respect, you might be overreacting to an overreaction.

First, as others have pointed out, we don't know what the other upgrade cards are in Wave 2, and how that might change the balance. Second, the effect does not seem as devastating as you fear. For one thing, it also limits the attacker's formations, since you can't send Wedge in for his up-close TIE killing at the same time as using these missiles. The attack damages friendly ships in range as well. It also costs 5 points, is a one-shot chance, and may be a huge whiff. We surely have all seen proton torps turn out to be a big bust. (I have yet to get a hit with one, and only seeing reports of their effective use online makes me think there is not some sort of dice curse attached to the Proton Torp card.)


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#67 magadizer

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:37 AM

 Also, who's to stop Vader from using these. Rebels are bound to be flying in formation with the Falcon as well to take advantage of certain effects, and 4 attack vs. 1 agility has a great chance of scoring a hit, with the subsequent splash damage.


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#68 R5Don4

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:42 AM

magadizer said:

 Also, who's to stop Vader from using these. Rebels are bound to be flying in formation with the Falcon as well to take advantage of certain effects, and 4 attack vs. 1 agility has a great chance of scoring a hit, with the subsequent splash damage.

They'll be good on Tie Advanceds for sure, but the Rebs are more resilient.  One third of a TIE swarm's Hull is much more damaging than half the Shields or less.


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#69 hothie

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:11 PM

Actually, I was thinking about a 3 TIE Advanced Squad, all with AM's. Although I think AM's probably should get its own crabbing thread. Who's up for starting the Assault Missile thread?



#70 JustinKase

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:20 PM

Doc Savage said:

 

Well, like all things, the market will establish a price for these Assault Missiles cards. What do you think? $2? $5? How high can they go? Not higher than $30, because you could just buy another Falcon for that. People will also find strategies to counter them. Maybe there is a card in one of the other wave 2 ship packs that we haven't seen.

Why not just copy and sleeve it?  Far cheaper solution ;)  It is an official card - so there should not be a need to invest $30 for each card you want.






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