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Focus on Your Objectives - Deckbuilding Article


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#21 MarthWMaster

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:13 PM

ScottieATF said:

 

alpha5099 said:

 

MarthWMaster said:

 

While the deckbuilding mechanic is no longer my problem with Star Wars: The Card Game, I am glad it was the first issue to be addressed. The tension I've seen here and elsewhere regarding set-based deckbuilding has given me much concern for the game's initial reception. I hope that fans of the saga will at least give it a chance before dismissing it as CCG blasphemy.

 

 

Yeah, this game definitely faces a bit of an uphill battle. Between those who are disappointed that it isn't the co-op game that was first announced, and those that are wary of the deckbuilding, there are going to be a fair number of detractors right out of the gate.

 

 

 

You are assuming way to much about the detractors.  To say the game has an uphill battle because there are some vocal people that refuse to look at the game because it isn't co-op (and such people existed in opposition to the game being co-op originally) or don't like a deck building mechanic they've barely seen is pretty presumptuous.    The vast majority of the people that will buy this game are not going to be posting on the forums about it at all, let alone pre-release

 

 

Perhaps rather than being brief I should have written my case more holistically, knowing that you would pick apart the literal meaning of my message. Indeed, while I've seen the vocal detractors online, as stated in my first message, I've also mentioned the game to CCG players at the LGSes I frequent, and to other friends who play casually, almost all of whom have expressed a neutral-to-negative opinion about the set-based system. I can't speak for other areas, obviously, but at least in my area, there does not seem to be much support for the game, other than the fact that it's Star Wars.


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#22 ScottieATF

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:31 PM

MarthWMaster said:

ScottieATF said:

 

alpha5099 said:

 

MarthWMaster said:

 

While the deckbuilding mechanic is no longer my problem with Star Wars: The Card Game, I am glad it was the first issue to be addressed. The tension I've seen here and elsewhere regarding set-based deckbuilding has given me much concern for the game's initial reception. I hope that fans of the saga will at least give it a chance before dismissing it as CCG blasphemy.

 

 

Yeah, this game definitely faces a bit of an uphill battle. Between those who are disappointed that it isn't the co-op game that was first announced, and those that are wary of the deckbuilding, there are going to be a fair number of detractors right out of the gate.

 

 

 

You are assuming way to much about the detractors.  To say the game has an uphill battle because there are some vocal people that refuse to look at the game because it isn't co-op (and such people existed in opposition to the game being co-op originally) or don't like a deck building mechanic they've barely seen is pretty presumptuous.    The vast majority of the people that will buy this game are not going to be posting on the forums about it at all, let alone pre-release

 

 

Perhaps rather than being brief I should have written my case more holistically, knowing that you would pick apart the literal meaning of my message. Indeed, while I've seen the vocal detractors online, as stated in my first message, I've also mentioned the game to CCG players at the LGSes I frequent, and to other friends who play casually, almost all of whom have expressed a neutral-to-negative opinion about the set-based system. I can't speak for other areas, obviously, but at least in my area, there does not seem to be much support for the game, other than the fact that it's Star Wars.

Marth I was not commenting on your post, yours just got wrapped up in quotes with his.  Though I do not understand why you are being so quick to get defensive.  It's a forum.  People agree and disagree on a forum.  You are viewing it as personal for some reason.



#23 Toqtamish

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:06 PM

I think the deck building is very innovative and an exciting new take on things. I am glad to see FFG try something new. This game will be fine, not only does it have the Star Wars backing it up, it has an exciting new system behind it. Right now Star Wars is even hotter than usual due to the recent changes with Lucasfilm and the upcoming new films. The last two LCG's have sold better than any others I have seen and this one looks set to do the same.



#24 MarthWMaster

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:27 PM

ScottieATF said:

 

ScottieATF said:

 

 

Marth I was not commenting on your post, yours just got wrapped up in quotes with his.  Though I do not understand why you are being so quick to get defensive.  It's a forum.  People agree and disagree on a forum.  You are viewing it as personal for some reason.

Except you only disagree. I have yet to read a post of yours that hasn't been a critique of someone else's post. So while I may have sounded like I took it personally, the truth is I was just a little bit bothered. Also, both of our posts were expressing the same opinion on the same issue, so I'm sure you can understand why it was difficult to decide whose argument was being criticized.


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#25 AshesFall

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:02 PM

 The "negative/neutral" opinion, or for that matter the positive opinion, of the local playerbase is an oddly contagious thing. If one player starts expressing his strong negative to his friends, pretty soon that negativity is echoed back from disparate groups in the area. The same happens when one or two players start expressing very positive opinions. Experiment sometime with starting one of these chains and see what happens :)

Aside from that little musing, I have the opposite experience from my crowd. A lot of them seem to like the deck building concept, they like that the sets are themed and carry a natural "feel" to the deck, they like that there are fewer choices and that it is a lot quicker to build decks.

 



#26 Darksbane

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:15 AM

AshesFall said:

 The "negative/neutral" opinion, or for that matter the positive opinion, of the local playerbase is an oddly contagious thing. If one player starts expressing his strong negative to his friends, pretty soon that negativity is echoed back from disparate groups in the area. The same happens when one or two players start expressing very positive opinions. Experiment sometime with starting one of these chains and see what happens :)

Aside from that little musing, I have the opposite experience from my crowd. A lot of them seem to like the deck building concept, they like that the sets are themed and carry a natural "feel" to the deck, they like that there are fewer choices and that it is a lot quicker to build decks.

 

 

This, especially when very few or no one in the group has had a chance to actually play the game, let alone deckbuild. 

All but one person in my core gaming group has had a chance to demo the game and we all had a good time playing it. Most of us are hard core card gamers and have no problem with the deckbuilding. We have tons of card games where we deckbuild normally, this one seems like a refreshing change of pace.


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#27 Bolfa Fluffbelly

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:44 AM

I love what they're trying to do with the objectives/sets.

To bad i can't feel the same way about everything else surrounding this game.



#28 AshesFall

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:16 AM

Bolfa Fluffbelly said:

I love what they're trying to do with the objectives/sets.

To bad i can't feel the same way about everything else surrounding this game.

 

What dont you like about it? I ask this with all well meaning and out of curiosity, I simply dont really understand what's not to like. :)

The art is Awesome, there will be a lot of opportunity to build thematic and interesting decks. The light side has three ways to win (so far), destroying the death star itself with an action card and attacks, attacking the heart of the empire and destroying it, or damaging the empire through destroying three objectives. 

The gameplay itself seems interesting, your base resources are already in play (objectives), those selfsame objectives give strategic options in themselves. The battle systems seem interesting with three types of "action icons" already on the characters to allow different strategies and tactics, edge battles for uncertainty, strategy and card cycling, other abilities, events, fate effects and so on. 



#29 Toqtamish

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:31 PM

Game is not even out yet and neither are the rules. It is a bit premature to decide if you like or dislike the game.



#30 Bolfa Fluffbelly

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:04 PM

AshesFall said:

 

Bolfa Fluffbelly said:

 

I love what they're trying to do with the objectives/sets.

To bad i can't feel the same way about everything else surrounding this game.

 

 

 

What dont you like about it? I ask this with all well meaning and out of curiosity, I simply dont really understand what's not to like. :)

The art is Awesome, there will be a lot of opportunity to build thematic and interesting decks. The light side has three ways to win (so far), destroying the death star itself with an action card and attacks, attacking the heart of the empire and destroying it, or damaging the empire through destroying three objectives. 

The gameplay itself seems interesting, your base resources are already in play (objectives), those selfsame objectives give strategic options in themselves. The battle systems seem interesting with three types of "action icons" already on the characters to allow different strategies and tactics, edge battles for uncertainty, strategy and card cycling, other abilities, events, fate effects and so on. 

 

 

 

Yeah, the art is fantastic, i'll give you that. Almost makes me want to buy it only for the Leia card.

Still, i'm not sold about the objectives themself (i love the set/deckbuilding), they feel a bit flat to be honest. The DS dial is also something that bothers me, i would rather the dial be incorporated into the objectives. What i have seen so far i'm not really digging the gameplay with space/land battles and the force, it just feels a bit generic.

And as ******* pointed out, yes ofcourse it's to early to say if the game is good/Bad, it's not out yet. Going by that logic this forum would be pretty silent until release. I also know how hard it would be to make a SW game that would please all Star Wars fans… still, from what i have seen so far this is how i feel about the game in this stage of development.

 

My biggest concern is the DS-dial to be honest. It's pretty blah.

[ADMIN: Edited for content. Keep the discourse civil.]



#31 AshesFall

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 04:07 AM

Bolfa Fluffbelly said:

 

Yeah, the art is fantastic, i'll give you that. Almost makes me want to buy it only for the Leia card.

Still, i'm not sold about the objectives themself (i love the set/deckbuilding), they feel a bit flat to be honest. The DS dial is also something that bothers me, i would rather the dial be incorporated into the objectives. What i have seen so far i'm not really digging the gameplay with space/land battles and the force, it just feels a bit generic.

And as ******* pointed out, yes ofcourse it's to early to say if the game is good/Bad, it's not out yet. Going by that logic this forum would be pretty silent until release. I also know how hard it would be to make a SW game that would please all Star Wars fans… still, from what i have seen so far this is how i feel about the game in this stage of development.

 

My biggest concern is the DS-dial to be honest. It's pretty blah.

[ADMIN: Edited for content. Keep the discourse civil.]

 

 

I can certainly understand your concern about the DS dial. It's one of the things I was/am a little hesitant about as well, it does feel a little weird with asymetrical victory conditions, where one side can wait out the clock doesnt it? :)

It's growing on me since the deck building preview though. I'm generally for everything that allows more options, theme and strategies in the game. The preview got me thinking about all the fun stuff they can do with the DS dial. Cards to slow it down, cards that stop it's advance with an objective placed on it that the empire must destroy before it can get moving again. The trench run as already seen in the preview. Maybe the empire can get a card they can play on it to give it an enhancement destroying laser attack once the dial rises to a certain number. The possibilities are very large both for added theme and strategy. And I like that a lot :).

I also suspect that with the right decks and feeling you can get a hectic struggle towards the end of the game. The empire is down two objectives with two turns left, can the rebels pull off those last attacks while the empire struggles to dominate the force (weighing the possibility of loosing a powerful character to defend with on the last turn because of the double focus on a comitted character) and marshal his defenses to hasten the end of the game and defend his objective?

These are my thoughts after turning the issue over for a good while in my head. :)



#32 Bolfa Fluffbelly

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 05:00 AM

AshesFall said:

I can certainly understand your concern about the DS dial. It's one of the things I was/am a little hesitant about as well, it does feel a little weird with asymetrical victory conditions, where one side can wait out the clock doesnt it? :)

It's growing on me since the deck building preview though. I'm generally for everything that allows more options, theme and strategies in the game. The preview got me thinking about all the fun stuff they can do with the DS dial. Cards to slow it down, cards that stop it's advance with an objective placed on it that the empire must destroy before it can get moving again. The trench run as already seen in the preview. Maybe the empire can get a card they can play on it to give it an enhancement destroying laser attack once the dial rises to a certain number. The possibilities are very large both for added theme and strategy. And I like that a lot :).

I also suspect that with the right decks and feeling you can get a hectic struggle towards the end of the game. The empire is down two objectives with two turns left, can the rebels pull off those last attacks while the empire struggles to dominate the force (weighing the possibility of loosing a powerful character to defend with on the last turn because of the double focus on a comitted character) and marshal his defenses to hasten the end of the game and defend his objective?

These are my thoughts after turning the issue over for a good while in my head. :)

 

Indeed.

If the game would only consist of the core game would have no problem with the DS-dial.

It's just i think it will hinder gameplay/theme in the future whenthe game gets larger and has more expansions. With the dial the game will force you to play basically sneaky rebels vs menacing empire. Not that i have anything against that per se, i just would like to have the option not to play it so. By having the DS-dial as an objective-type instead it would still have everything you said above but with the option to not have it (if you would want yo play bounty hunter etc). Having asymetrical winning conditions in a otherwise symetrical game just feels… odd.

Also, i like how they said that the DS-dial was just an abstraction of the dark sides influence and not really the death star, yet here we have cards like trench run treating it like it's the death star.

and sorry for the namecalling TS.



#33 spalanzani

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 05:09 AM

Would the dial be looked upon more favourably if it were called a "Dark Side Dial" rather than a "Death Star Dial"? I feel the choice of its name has led to most of the bad feeling against it. I think I heard or read that the dial represents the growing power of the Dark Side, after all, rather than the building site that created the Death Star, so while the game isn't always going to be about taking out the bad guys' superweapon but about stopping the spread of evil, it will always feel something like the Battle of Yavin happening time after time after time. Showing the spread of evil could perhaps have been done better, but the abstract way of counting up to a set goal seems to be about standard for other games, after all. 

But it's called the Death Star dial, and it looks like a Death Star. So I guess we'll just have to live with it. 

Personally, I am still really over-excited for this game. It isn't the game I was hoping for, but the game that has been shown to me in the previews thus far has got me really very excited. I play all of FFG's LCGs except Netrunner, and enjoy them all, but there seems to be something different about this one. Whether it'll be "truly groundbreaking" as they promised back in February will remain to be seen, of course, but the fact that it feels very different so far is definitely going in its favour. There will, I think, be a lot more to it than just trying to destroy your enemy's cards, that these discussions about the deckbuilding will fade into the background. 

Or, at least, I hope they do…


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#34 AshesFall

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 05:13 AM

Bolfa Fluffbelly said:

 

Indeed.

If the game would only consist of the core game would have no problem with the DS-dial.

It's just i think it will hinder gameplay/theme in the future whenthe game gets larger and has more expansions. With the dial the game will force you to play basically sneaky rebels vs menacing empire. Not that i have anything against that per se, i just would like to have the option not to play it so. By having the DS-dial as an objective-type instead it would still have everything you said above but with the option to not have it (if you would want yo play bounty hunter etc). Having asymetrical winning conditions in a otherwise symetrical game just feels… odd.

Also, i like how they said that the DS-dial was just an abstraction of the dark sides influence and not really the death star, yet here we have cards like trench run treating it like it's the death star.

and sorry for the namecalling TS.

These are some good points I think. I believe that we will stay with the "original triology" for quite a long time in this game, with the different episodes being the "main release sets". For the first triology, I think the death star dial itself will work well. For an episode IV theme the trench run attack card works well, for an epidode five theme they may do something different with the dial, other cards and so on.

Perhaps they will introduce entirely other mechanics and alternatives with later sets, when moving beyond the original triology? We'll just have to wait and see. :)

For now however, I am conviced that the basic set (I.e. episode IV, with the coming monthly packs to flesh out the episode IV block) is very nicely done theme wise. I'll definetly support the game through this first cycle and have fun with it with my friends. After this cycle, we'll see what they come up with and reevaluate. Perhaps it's best to approach this game on a "per cycle" basis? Just thinking out loud here. :)



#35 Toqtamish

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 05:51 AM

I am remaining cautiously optimistic for this one and will buy at least the core set. I own every core set except for Cthulhu anyway. However I am a huge fan of Lord of the Rings as well and yet really do not like that game at all and do not play or bought anything beyond the one core set. I am a Star Wars nut and look forward to a Star Wars game and am remaining open to like or dislike it. So far I like what I have seen but will need to give the rules a good overview soon as they are out to really decide.



#36 Hannibal_pjv

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:01 AM

Well. Good and bad. For me the combined space, land, lighsabre etc fight is something that let me down, when one evok can destroy super star destroyer.. well that is easy to understand, but rancor killing a star destroyer is really much harder… It is all about making the game rules more easier, but it eats the feeling of being out there.

The deck building system seems to be ok. The art is fine. The rest, have to see the real thing before those…

 



#37 houjix1138

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:42 AM

I'm willing to deal with a minor bit of abstraction of theme if it facilitates a more streamlined gameplay.  I loved the old Decipher version, but there were situations in that that, while not as ridiculous as a Rancor vs a ISD, definitely pulled you out of the moment.  I remember one of my last tournaments playing against a deck that was trying to blow up the shield generator on Endor, but also included Pod Racing.  Having units be basically universal will keep the player interactions high.

As far as the Death Star dial, the Death Star represented the ultimate power in the universe. The dial is the Darkside's ultimate power in this game, representing the inevitability that the Rebels are trying to avoid. If this game sticks to mainly original trilogy and beyond, the dial being a Death Star isn't the worst thing in the world. I'm also willing to bet that Disney somehow brings a Death Star into the new movies.



#38 Bolfa Fluffbelly

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:52 AM

AshesFall said:

 

 

These are some good points I think. I believe that we will stay with the "original triology" for quite a long time in this game, with the different episodes being the "main release sets". For the first triology, I think the death star dial itself will work well. For an episode IV theme the trench run attack card works well, for an epidode five theme they may do something different with the dial, other cards and so on.

Perhaps they will introduce entirely other mechanics and alternatives with later sets, when moving beyond the original triology? We'll just have to wait and see. :)

For now however, I am conviced that the basic set (I.e. episode IV, with the coming monthly packs to flesh out the episode IV block) is very nicely done theme wise. I'll definetly support the game through this first cycle and have fun with it with my friends. After this cycle, we'll see what they come up with and reevaluate. Perhaps it's best to approach this game on a "per cycle" basis? Just thinking out loud here. :)


Yes… But why have the dial in the first place? If you would replace the dial with an objective that works like the dial you would still have the same mechanic but could choose not to use said mechanic. It would also make it easier to expand and make the game more customizable.

I feel like a parrot repeating myself but dials aint for me.


 And bringing a Death Star to the new trilogy is the worst idea ever. Bringing it back in Return of the Jedi was bad enough.



#39 houjix1138

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:11 AM

Bolfa Fluffbelly said:

Yes… But why have the dial in the first place? If you would replace the dial with an objective that works like the dial you would still have the same mechanic but could choose not to use said mechanic. It would also make it easier to expand and make the game more customizable.

Its a game timer. They want the game to conclude within a reasonable amount of time. With no impetus, games can devolve into stalemates, where players are either unwilling, or unable to do anything. Does this provide any unfair advantage to the Dark side, perhaps. However, since we hardly know any of the cards, it's hard to discern how much of an advantage this really is.

I'm willing to see more on how the game plays before I declare the DSD as the worst idea in the history of card games.



#40 Darksbane

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:15 AM

Bolfa Fluffbelly said:

Yes… But why have the dial in the first place? If you would replace the dial with an objective that works like the dial you would still have the same mechanic but could choose not to use said mechanic. It would also make it easier to expand and make the game more customizable.

They could choose not to use the mechanic now too. Just like with every rule in games like this they can make a card that will bend or break them at their will. 


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