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Little and Less Event


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#21 mnBroncos

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 07:19 PM

ktom said:

dcdennis said:

 biggest winner is martell HH. they can recurse this event forever with Princes Plans and prevent all responses for the entire game. Nutso! I LOVE IT! To those prepping whiney posts…….you asked for a meta shake-up, now you got it. I applaud this event. GG Damon.

Actually, Martell may be the biggest loser. They use a TON of Responses themselves, and the card stops all of them, not just opponents'.

 

Of course, it royally screws Maesters (the Agenda, and most links, are Resposnes…) and Siege decks. So it's kinda silver-bulletish, but still has plenty of uses if your opponents are playing something other than Maesters or Stark-murder.

One of the really fun things is that it is going to make people FAR more aware of the timing windows and when Responses can be played. For example, it's best use might be to go first in Challenges, finish all of your challenges (including Responses to them), then play the event as a Response in the framework action window where "active player" status changes to your opponent. (Oh yeah, that's an action window, which has a Response step!).

 

Going to have to agree here, both Martell decks been working on greatly revolve around their powerful responses. However, do believe this came out due to the high use of Maester decks and nice that it is a big hit on them. Not sure though how best will be used though, I mean how many decks don't want to trigger some responses, although can plan it around your own still could hurt yourself just as much or more if planned poorly. 



#22 sWhiteboy

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 07:37 PM

imrahil327 said:

And if the Shadows card itself has a response (E.G. King's Landing Assassin), does it go to First Player to decide if the Shadows card gets to respond or the opponent gets to play L&L?

The FAQ says that the first response after a player action (such as bringing a card out of shadows) goes to the person that is left of the one who initiated the player action.



#23 ktom

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 11:07 PM

sWhiteboy said:

imrahil327 said:

 

And if the Shadows card itself has a response (E.G. King's Landing Assassin), does it go to First Player to decide if the Shadows card gets to respond or the opponent gets to play L&L?

 

 

The FAQ says that the first response after a player action (such as bringing a card out of shadows) goes to the person that is left of the one who initiated the player action.

More to the point, the FAQ also says, specifically, that this applies to Shadows, too, and the first response after a card comes out of Shadows goes to the player on the left of the player bringing the card out of Shadows:

 



#24 Bomb

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 03:40 AM

ktom said:

"Response window" is bad templating. There is no such thing as a response "window." There are only response STEPS in other windows (player and framework.)

You CANNOT play it during a save/cancel step. Since it does not use the word "save" or "cancel" so it cannot interrupt the initiation and resolution of another effect. Another reason response "step" would have been clearer: Step 5 is the response step/window. Step 2 is the save/cancel step/window. 

I understand what you are saying, but the card itself does state "any response window".  Pretend "window" is replaced by "step".  The type of step that is open should not matter considering what the card says.  Considering Save/Cancel responses are a response step, it would be included as part of "any response step", no?  This could be a case of card text overriding rules.

Honestly, it will almost not matter really anyway because the save opportunity for the opponent should occur before Little and Less can be played unless it's MIL claim or some other framework where FP responds first(like discussed above).



#25 ktom

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 04:25 AM

I disagree with your interpretation.

Yes, the card say that you can play it during any response window, step, opportunity, whatever. However, the rules say that only Responses that use the words "save" or "cancel" can be used in the save/cancel response window, step, opportunity, whatever. There is no reason to think that the "Response" effect on the event that you trigger - which does not specifically use the words "save" or "cancel" - is exempt from that rule because they do not, actually, specifically conflict.

There are two different requirements for triggering a save/cancel Response - a valid response opportunity and the word "save" or "cancel." Both must be true in order to use the Response in Step 2. The "can be triggered during any window" only bypasses one of those requirements. It does not bypass the other.

It's like "this character can be declared as an attacker while knelt" bypassing the "only standing characters can be declared" requirement, but not the "with an appropriate icon" requirement.  



#26 Bomb

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 04:34 AM

ktom said:

It's like "this character can be declared as an attacker while knelt" bypassing the "only standing characters can be declared" requirement, but not the "with an appropriate icon" requirement.  

I agree with that example, but not if the example said "this character can be declared as an attacker while knelt during any challenge".  The keyword to me is still "any".  Like I had said before, it probably won't end up mattering because of who has the first response opportunity… however it might matter in a Melee game.



#27 Reldan

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 09:52 AM

Seems like this would matter quite a bit after a Valar.  If you can play it during the Save/Cancel Response Step you could prevent your opponent from triggering any of his saves during the same framework action where the Valar effect is taking place.  You also could as first player trigger a save of your own and then play Little and Less during the save/cancel response step of your own save response, which would let your save go through and prevent your opponent from doing the same.

If it truly was only during the Step 5 Responses then you'd have to play this during the Start of Plot window to make it an un-savable Valar, which would be before your opponent selected their plot and would obviously influence their choice.

Aside from the basic question of scope (which sounds its been answered to mean ALL triggered responses of any kind), this timing question seems pretty critical.  I generally agree with just about everything ktom says, but this card is already so badly templated and without precedent that it's difficult for me to say for certain what exactly you can or can't do with it.



#28 agktmte

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 01:36 PM

Reldan said:

If it truly was only during the Step 5 Responses then you'd have to play this during the Start of Plot window to make it an un-savable Valar, which would be before your opponent selected their plot and would obviously influence their choice.

Well, if you have the first save, playing that card would create a normal response step (response to the save being triggered), so you could then use L&L in that step before other saves/cancels.



#29 ktom

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 01:41 PM

agktmte said:

Reldan said:

 

If it truly was only during the Step 5 Responses then you'd have to play this during the Start of Plot window to make it an un-savable Valar, which would be before your opponent selected their plot and would obviously influence their choice.

 

 

Well, if you have the first save, playing that card would create a normal response step (response to the save being triggered), so you could then use L&L in that step before other saves/cancels.

Not quite. It would create a normal response opportunity (respond to the save being triggered) that you could not act upon until Step 5 of the action window. So if you cannot use this in save/cancel steps, if you wait until after Valar is revealed, you would not be able to play this event until all plots were resolved, all saves/cancels against those plots were resolved, all passives to revealing those plots and resolved, etc.



#30 Amuk

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 09:46 AM

ktom said:

agktmte said:

Reldan said:

 

If it truly was only during the Step 5 Responses then you'd have to play this during the Start of Plot window to make it an un-savable Valar, which would be before your opponent selected their plot and would obviously influence their choice.

 

Well, if you have the first save, playing that card would create a normal response step (response to the save being triggered), so you could then use L&L in that step before other saves/cancels.

Not quite. It would create a normal response opportunity (respond to the save being triggered) that you could not act upon until Step 5 of the action window. So if you cannot use this in save/cancel steps, if you wait until after Valar is revealed, you would not be able to play this event until all plots were resolved, all saves/cancels against those plots were resolved, all passives to revealing those plots and resolved, etc.

 

I went ahead and sent the question in late last week. Damon responded this afternoon:

Little and Less is only to be trigger-able during the normal response window (Step 5 in the Timing Chart in the FAQ), not during the save/cancel opportunity.


Cordially,

Amuk

 

"Life is a tragedy for those who feel & a comedy for those who think." - Jean de la Bruyère


#31 Ratatoskr

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:04 AM

During the Challenge phase, there are Framework Action Windows with the Framework events

1. Active Player declares challenge type and opponent
2. Active player kneels attacking characters

For the purposes of Little and Less, are these Framework Action Windows, including their step 5, there whether the active player actually declares challenges or not, or do they only open up when the Active player actually declares a challenge? As Framework Action Windows, they should always be there, I guess, but I'm not sure.

To illustrate, is the following scenario possible?

Player A (FP):
"OK, Challenge phase begins, no Response from me, any from you? No? Good. No Player Action from me. You? No? OK. Next up, Active Player declares challenge. I don't actually declare a challenge, but I'd like to play L&L in the response step of the window."



#32 ktom

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:19 AM

Ratatoskr said:

As Framework Action Windows, they should always be there, I guess, but I'm not sure.
Well, I'll point to Double Bluff as the precedent. If the attacking player has not attacking characters with stealth, and the defending player chooses not to kneel any attackers, you can still use the "after defenders have been declared in a challenge" response on Double Bluff. So, it would appear that the framework action windows technically take place even when the framework events are not actually "successful."

However, if people argue with that reasoning in the scenario you describe, just tell them you are playing "Little and Less" in the Response Step of the "change active player" framework action window.



#33 Bomb

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:21 AM

I believe it skips all the way down to the Framework Action "Active player is finished with challenges".    You cannot enter Framework Action windows that are dependent on preceding actions I believe, otherwise removing all attacking characters from a challenge before Stealth is declared would still allow you to declare defenders(or a challenge fizzling will still allow you to respond to challenge resolution).  Consider the challenge resolution window.  It has an arrow pointing up to the top Player Action.  If you declare no challenge, then you would reach this window and thus be able to have another Challenge opportunity by following the arrow.  You cannot follow this arrow if this Framework Action window is skipped by not declaring a challenge type and attackers.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty certain the act of "declaring no challenge" just skips you down to the "Active player is finished with challenges" window.



#34 ktom

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:25 AM

Bomb said:

Consider the challenge resolution window.  It has an arrow pointing up to the top Player Action.  If you declare no challenge, then you would reach this window and thus be able to have another Challenge opportunity by following the arrow.  You cannot follow this arrow if this Framework Action window is skipped by not declaring a challenge type and attackers.
I disagree with this interpretation. I would say that you only follow the arrow if you have another potential challenge opportunity. But if you reach that arrow by following through the chart without successfully initiating a challenge, you are out of opportunities.



#35 Ratatoskr

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:55 AM

ktom said:

 

However, if people argue with that reasoning in the scenario you describe, just tell them you are playing "Little and Less" in the Response Step of the "change active player" framework action window.

That doesn't work if the Active Player is the First Player, though, does it? There is no distinct FAW in which the FP becomes the Active Player; he does so during the "Beginning of the Phase" FAW.



#36 ktom

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:12 PM

Ratatoskr said:

That doesn't work if the Active Player is the First Player, though, does it? There is no distinct FAW in which the FP becomes the Active Player; he does so during the "Beginning of the Phase" FAW.
The "distinct FAW" in which the First Player becomes the active player is the "begin phase" FAW. But you said no one chose to trigger "Little and Less" during that.

Maybe I misunderstood your example. What I thought you were going for was this:

  1. FAW for "Challenge Phase Begins" (you could use Little and Less here, but no one does) - First Player is Active Player
  2. Player Action Window: No one triggers anything (so no Step 5 - "Little and Less" cannot be triggered)
  3. FAW for "Active Player Initiates Challenge" - Active Player says "no challenge"

Now, if we assume that FAWs where nothing is initiated don't happen (which is probably not the case, but we're pretending), when the Active/First Player says "no challenge" in #3, not only is there no Step 5, but there are no challenges. If you PASS on an opportunity to declare a challenge, that's it: You don't get any more challenges during that phase. So the next FAW you get to (we're assuming no Player Actions) is "Active Player done, next player becomes active player."

That FAW will have a Step 5. You can play "Little and Less" as the status of Active Player transitions from the first player to the next. But the First Player is done with challenges. Isn't that you you were going for? First Player declares no challenges, but Little and Less is played before the next player has a chance to declare attackers in their first challenge? (Because with my luck, they'd attack with Brienne….)



#37 snowfrost

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:22 PM

ktom said:

Ratatoskr said:

That doesn't work if the Active Player is the First Player, though, does it? There is no distinct FAW in which the FP becomes the Active Player; he does so during the "Beginning of the Phase" FAW.

The "distinct FAW" in which the First Player becomes the active player is the "begin phase" FAW. But you said no one chose to trigger "Little and Less" during that.

 

Maybe I misunderstood your example. What I thought you were going for was this:

  1. FAW for "Challenge Phase Begins" (you could use Little and Less here, but no one does) - First Player is Active Player
  2. Player Action Window: No one triggers anything (so no Step 5 - "Little and Less" cannot be triggered)
  3. FAW for "Active Player Initiates Challenge" - Active Player says "no challenge"

Now, if we assume that FAWs where nothing is initiated don't happen (which is probably not the case, but we're pretending), when the Active/First Player says "no challenge" in #3, not only is there no Step 5, but there are no challenges. If you PASS on an opportunity to declare a challenge, that's it: You don't get any more challenges during that phase. So the next FAW you get to (we're assuming no Player Actions) is "Active Player done, next player becomes active player."

That FAW will have a Step 5. You can play "Little and Less" as the status of Active Player transitions from the first player to the next. But the First Player is done with challenges. Isn't that you you were going for? First Player declares no challenges, but Little and Less is played before the next player has a chance to declare attackers in their first challenge? (Because with my luck, they'd attack with Brienne….)

 

but someone told me that  "little and less" only prevent  the Event Cards , they have received the mail form ffg



#38 Ratatoskr

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:49 PM

snowfrost said:

 but someone told me that  "little and less" only prevent  the Event Cards , they have received the mail form ffg

There has been quoted a message from Damon in this very thread that says otherwise (reply #7). I suggest you post the exact queation that was asked and the exact answer here. Until then, this is just hearsay.



#39 snowfrost

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:54 PM

 reply from ffg:

It only prevents the player from playing responses, that is triggering a response effect from hand. Any response ability on a card in play is still able to be triggered.



#40 ktom

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:25 PM

Then FFG needs to figure it out amongst themselves and answer the question again because that is in direct conflict to the answer FFG sent to Bomb.






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