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Suggestion: LCG Core Complement Packs


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#21 Kiwamu

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 05:44 AM

Toqtamish said:

 

Kiwamu said:

 

 I consider it the necessary evil. FFG is a company that wants to earn money. Selling at least a second core set is a huge boon to them.

 

 

 

This part is not exactly true as with that second core set comes all of the other bits that cost them money, the box, the tokens, rulebook etc. They probably don't really make that much extra money off of another core set purchase.

 

 

 

I have to disagree in a kindly way. They probably get more discount for ordering a bigger stock to be produced. If they had to splitt, the discounts wouldn't be as high or wouldn't apply. Sure you now could say, they just have to print out the cards, but I guess they would require a second packaging etc. Also marketing would be HELL!

Imagine the game and the complement pack at the same retailer, at the same shelf, the casual player that just buys it because STAR WARS, or A GAME OF THRONES would be immeadeatily put off to see that one of the purchases wouldn't give him all the cards. Howeve if there is only the core set to display, than he would grab it and present the newest FRANCHISE game to his beloved ones and cries out in joy if he draw his favourite franchise character.

Last but not least, if they wouldn't benefit in the sale, why bother to sell the first core set in the first place and reprinting it?

So they would probably loose out on the discounts AND the impulse purchases. :)



#22 KEM

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:55 PM

Kiwamu said:

Toqtamish said:

 

Kiwamu said:

 

 I consider it the necessary evil. FFG is a company that wants to earn money. Selling at least a second core set is a huge boon to them.

 

 

 

This part is not exactly true as with that second core set comes all of the other bits that cost them money, the box, the tokens, rulebook etc. They probably don't really make that much extra money off of another core set purchase.

 

 

 

I have to disagree in a kindly way. They probably get more discount for ordering a bigger stock to be produced. If they had to splitt, the discounts wouldn't be as high or wouldn't apply. Sure you now could say, they just have to print out the cards, but I guess they would require a second packaging etc. Also marketing would be HELL!

Imagine the game and the complement pack at the same retailer, at the same shelf, the casual player that just buys it because STAR WARS, or A GAME OF THRONES would be immeadeatily put off to see that one of the purchases wouldn't give him all the cards. Howeve if there is only the core set to display, than he would grab it and present the newest FRANCHISE game to his beloved ones and cries out in joy if he draw his favourite franchise character.

Last but not least, if they wouldn't benefit in the sale, why bother to sell the first core set in the first place and reprinting it?

So they would probably loose out on the discounts AND the impulse purchases. :)

I don't see how the marketing would be hell at all. Just keep the "core" sets that way that they are and call them what they really are: Introductory sets or Basic sets. Then you make another set called the Advanced set, and indicate clearly on the box that you need the Basic set to play. Fantasy Flight still gets to sell two copies of the game, and the customer is more accurately informed as to what they are getting into. The basic sets would be pretty much what they are now, fully playable sets that give you the flavor and feel for the game. For some people that could be all they need. The people who really want to get into the game can buy the advanced set and open up the possibilities of desk design and what not.

The current situation really isn't tenable, to be honest. I mean, imagine if you bought a board game and there weren't enough components to play the complete game. You ask what the deal is and everyone tells you, "duh, you're supposed to buy a second copy of the game". You'd look at them as if they were nuts. So why exactly is that acceptable for LCGs? Especially when I don't every recall seeing anything on any LCG core set explaining that it is only an introductory set and only contains part of the game. If there is and I've missed it, fair enough. At least with a Basic set and an Advanced set customers will know exactly what they are getting.

 



#23 dboeren

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:04 PM

KEM said:

The current situation really isn't tenable, to be honest. I mean, imagine if you bought a board game and there weren't enough components to play the complete game. You ask what the deal is and everyone tells you, "duh, you're supposed to buy a second copy of the game". You'd look at them as if they were nuts. So why exactly is that acceptable for LCGs? Especially when I don't every recall seeing anything on any LCG core set explaining that it is only an introductory set and only contains part of the game. If there is and I've missed it, fair enough. At least with a Basic set and an Advanced set customers will know exactly what they are getting.

There is no such thing as "the whole game".  That's the entire point of an LCG, more cards keep coming out and it just keeps going.

Therefore, the Core set cannot contain "the whole game" because it doesn't exist.

However, it does contain everything you need to play, unlike your straw man half-a-boardgame example.



#24 KEM

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:49 PM

dboeren said:

KEM said:

 

The current situation really isn't tenable, to be honest. I mean, imagine if you bought a board game and there weren't enough components to play the complete game. You ask what the deal is and everyone tells you, "duh, you're supposed to buy a second copy of the game". You'd look at them as if they were nuts. So why exactly is that acceptable for LCGs? Especially when I don't every recall seeing anything on any LCG core set explaining that it is only an introductory set and only contains part of the game. If there is and I've missed it, fair enough. At least with a Basic set and an Advanced set customers will know exactly what they are getting.

 

There is no such thing as "the whole game".  That's the entire point of an LCG, more cards keep coming out and it just keeps going.

Therefore, the Core set cannot contain "the whole game" because it doesn't exist.

However, it does contain everything you need to play, unlike your straw man half-a-boardgame example.

Sure the core set gives you everything you need to play, as long as you don't consider deck-building to be a significant part of the LCG. If you do want to build decks, then you're going to find that the core set is short of many of the key cards you'll need. The only way to get those cards currently is to buy a duplicate copy of the game you just bought. Expansions don't have much of anything to do with that problem.

I should probably be a bit clearer though that I'm not accusing Fantasy Flight of any shenanigans. My last post came off a bit more accusatory than I intended and for that I apologize. LCGs are a pretty new concept and Fantasy Flight has been doing their best to try and figure out how to make and market this type of game. Fantasy Flight already addressed a similar issue with regards to the expansion packs when they switched from the 40-card packs to the 60-card packs. That was simply part of the growing pains of sorting out this whole new game type. The 60-card packs are great improvement on the format and Fantasy Flight deserve much kudos for that. At the end of the day all I'm really saying is that the core sets are just another issue that Fantasy Flight are going to have to sort out. They've done it before, they can do it again.

 



#25 Kirath

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:58 AM

Evazorek said:

This is a really interesting debate, the fact that cards do not have rarities but some are still inherently less common. I think the lack of secondary market is what leads to this observation. If you could buy a core set and then just go to an ebay retailer and buy the missing cards you need without having to buy a second core set, people would do it. However, if you think about it this retailer would probably charge you a premium for the individual cards and so you would end up paying more for the small number of cards you needed than what a second core set would be worth in buying.

 

I think the issue boils down to people who like card games like having all the cards they can use but don't like having excess cards which they can never use. I get rid of so many junk commons and uncommons from my magic collection so I know the feeling. The problem with an LCG is that no one wants these excess cards you have so you are at a loss what on earth to do with them most of the time. I guess the best thing to do is if you want to play at the highest level just buy that second core set and no longer think about it. From what I can gather the issue is only with the starter or core packs for a game so it is hardly a huge issue.

 

There are some people on ebay who sell single cards for LCG. I'm just not willing to pay ~5€ for a single card. :-/ 

 

You're adressing my main problem with buying a second or third Core Set. It's that I don't really want to have a bunch of cards lying around that nobody would ever need, not even a beginner. It's not the end of the world and I realize, that the LCG format is already very consumer friendly. 

Would it be possible to make a Core Set that only contains a single copy of every card, or would that ruin the consistency of the starter decks? I think that the Call of Cthulhu Core Set is made like this, but I'm not entirely sure. It would surely make it a lot easier for me to pick up multiple Core Sets. ^^



#26 dbmeboy

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 05:21 AM

Kirath said:

Would it be possible to make a Core Set that only contains a single copy of every card, or would that ruin the consistency of the starter decks? I think that the Call of Cthulhu Core Set is made like this, but I'm not entirely sure. It would surely make it a lot easier for me to pick up multiple Core Sets. ^^

That's how the Star Wars LCG core set works (for the most part… there's 2 objective sets that you get 2 off because they're used in 2 of the starter decks, so you can keep all 4 starter decks built).



#27 dboeren

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:51 AM

Yes, Call of Cthulhu has 1x copies of all the cards.  In my opinion it works great.  You can buy 2xCores and be pretty good, or buy 3xCore which is only necessary if you want to be a completist and whatever way you go there are zero wasted cards.



#28 Rapier

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:55 AM

As far as I'm concerned there are two good solutions that FFG could impliment, and one "bad" solution.

1) include the additional cards in a single product - probably package it with some new cards, and maybe new mechanics. (For example the catalcyism expansion for warhammer could include the missing cards from the core as well as all the new cards - everyone's going to buy it, now they have complete playsets).

 

2) include the missing cards peicemeal. This expansion comes with all these new cards and 1 copy of card X from the core set, this would lower the extra cost across multiple packs.

 

3) They could use PoD to complete the play set. These cards would be "marked" however because POD isn't the same cardstock.



#29 Rapier

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:55 AM

As far as I'm concerned there are two good solutions that FFG could impliment, and one "bad" solution.

1) include the additional cards in a single product - probably package it with some new cards, and maybe new mechanics. (For example the catalcyism expansion for warhammer could include the missing cards from the core as well as all the new cards - everyone's going to buy it, now they have complete playsets).

 

2) include the missing cards peicemeal. This expansion comes with all these new cards and 1 copy of card X from the core set, this would lower the extra cost across multiple packs.

 

3) They could use PoD to complete the play set. These cards would be "marked" however because POD isn't the same cardstock.



#30 JasperIII

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 11:26 PM

This is a great debate.   And I'm more than glad to see it surface.  My meta and I had played this game many a years ago when it was still a CCG.  We had the same arguements when it switched to the LCG model:

1.  Why aren't there enough cards in one chapter pack for a full deck?

2.  What do you mean I have to buy 3 packs if there's a really cool single that I want?

3.  Wait, we know EXACTLY what's in each pack?  Dude… that takes away the surprise and Christmas aspect of opening each pack.

4.  Etc, Etc.

We actually didn't like the changes so much that the meta for Agot disappeared in our town.  We all stopped competing, went on with our lives, and occasionally pull out an old deck or two to play with family.  We loved this game and absolutely hated the new model.  Sure, you would spend more money in the long run buying boosters.  But that whole aspect of trading with friends and not knowing what you were getting was important to us.  We tried playing with the "new" core packs; and it was just awful.  I sincerely hope that they do something to add packs or boosters or something back in.  It would be a real shame if FFG couldn't capitalize on this time period where the tv show is approaching a peak of popularity.  I mean really, they could have had people that didn't ever think of card games go, "There's a Game of Thrones card game?!  And it's not for kids?!  Dude, I'm totally gonna try that!"  They still can, but with our metas not being what they were, no one to get excited with them about it.  Purely subjective, I know.  Point though.  Game seemed like it was more popular about 5 years ago… before the changes.  Don't believe me?  Where's Ktom?  Where's that cool dude that ran AGOT in his basement and had walls of booze?  Where's that red headed Morgan chick?  Where's Lucas recruiting game stores across the midwest?  And finally, where's Tzumainn?  If these names and places mean nothing to you, you haven't played in the Golden Age of the game. 

Just my two cents.  Good to see the game is at least alive still. 

Later, heroes.



#31 skwizzle

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 05:34 PM

Believe me, I know about the surprise aspect of CCGs. I love opening a pack and finding new cards. This is what got me into Magic, On the Edge, and Battletech back in the 90s. This is part of the reason why I still love CCGs like the Spoils, and enjoy collecting things like Go-gos.


But I'd much rather have a balanced game that anyone can buy into. This is why I love LCGs, and think that any CCG would be much better as an LCG. The game aspect is so much more important to me than the random, collectible aspect.

 



#32 skwizzle

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 05:41 PM

JasperIII said:

It would be a real shame if FFG couldn't capitalize on this time period where the tv show is approaching a peak of popularity.  I mean really, they could have had people that didn't ever think of card games go, "There's a Game of Thrones card game?!  And it's not for kids?!  Dude, I'm totally gonna try that!"  They still can, but with our metas not being what they were, no one to get excited with them about it.

No, what they'd really say is "What, another CCG? Where whoever has the most money wins? Like Magic? Dude, there is no way in hell I'd buy into that!"



#33 Toqtamish

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 12:38 AM

skwizzle said:

JasperIII said:

 

It would be a real shame if FFG couldn't capitalize on this time period where the tv show is approaching a peak of popularity.  I mean really, they could have had people that didn't ever think of card games go, "There's a Game of Thrones card game?!  And it's not for kids?!  Dude, I'm totally gonna try that!"  They still can, but with our metas not being what they were, no one to get excited with them about it.

 

 

No, what they'd really say is "What, another CCG? Where whoever has the most money wins? Like Magic? Dude, there is no way in hell I'd buy into that!"

 

Which is why you patiently explain to them what a LCG is and how it is a superior model to the older TCG model. Works every time for me.



#34 skwizzle

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 05:37 AM

Toqtamish said:

Which is why you patiently explain to them what a LCG is and how it is a superior model to the older TCG model. Works every time for me.

The guy I was replying to wants Fantasy Flight to take A Game of Thrones back to the CCG model; I was arguing why that's a bad idea. You explain it to him, if you think you can do a better job.



#35 Toqtamish

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 06:28 AM

He wants a CCG back ? WTF!



#36 ValeS

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:18 AM

Toqtamish said:

I don't know if you know this already but this has been brought up about a million times before and FFG has said very clearly they will not be doing this. They have said it is not cost effective to do this. The reason core sets are the way they are is because they prefer card diversity over a full playset in Core sets. Also you do not need 3 of every card. I have two core sets for both AGoT and Android: Netrunner and that is more than enough and the only reason I did that is to build multiple decks.

 

Netrunner is Ok if you get 2x Core Sets (unless at some point for a specific deck/meta you need 3 copies of the singles included to run smoothly).

But if you try Call of Cthulhu you will be surprised at how many of the core cards run 3x in almost any deck (especially competitive decks)!!!

An Advanced Core Complement Pack would be God sent!

 



#37 MavericK96

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:43 PM

I only really play Netrunner, but I'd like to see a complement pack of some sort…even if it's just for the one-offs (as I didn't have a huge problem buying another core set…having 4 possible decks at a time might be nice).  There aren't too terribly many, like 10 maybe, if that?






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