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Overlapping Bases Rule needs tweeking. I suggest simultaneous movement with staggered action selection.


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#21 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 01:01 PM

Baphomet69 said:

 I agree, I'm disatisfied with the current overlap rules as well. If there is going to be any effect at all for overlapping, the effect should be the same as for obstacles.

Baphomet69 said:

 I agree, I'm disatisfied with the current overlap rules as well. If there is going to be any effect at all for overlapping, the effect should be the same as for obstacles.

its good to see some new points of discussion here. I personally dont buy into the 'its in the rules so it has to be followed' approach. Even with wings of war there were rules which irked ppl. the one that springs to mind in altitude adding complexity without really adding enough to the game itself. Using House Rules are up to you. Use them or not, its your house!

Ok back to X-Wing. Lets try and find solutions for improving/modifying the Overlapping Rule for people like us 3 (there must be more out there right?) who are dissatisfied with the current rule.

I agree that both ships with overlapping bases should be effected equally.

Lets look at Collision rules with objects such as asteroids. The player rolls a single attack die on themselves and takes that result. Id suggest that overlapping bases cause no damage but base to peg/peg to base overlaps do the same thing as a collision. Now i think that both pilots should be able to evade collision damage altogether by rolling ONE defense die to see if they squeek past without damage.

There is still the issue of what happens when the active players ship does not pass completely through another ships base. It makes sense that they cannot shoot eachother. I would suggest the the same roll that u make for the initial overlapping of peg/base is also used to determine whether any action is possible or if your action is cancelled immediately.

 

Ok things are taking shape but lets just summarise how MY HOUSE RULES for overlapping bases might work (still tinkering tho and these need testing):

1) overlapping bases only. This  will cause no damage but may cause loss of your action. both ships roll one defense die (2 if u have expert handling pilot skill)

if either player rolls the evade icon they either keep the action they have placed or can now choose an action. if either ship fails to roll the evade icon then their action is cancelled, this will mean removing any focus or evade tokens currently placed (the ship that is not the active players ship). If the Non-active players ship already has an evade token should they get one additional defense die? Perhaps as they r alreafy taking defenseive action right. this added bonus will make the defensice action slightly better as it has a dual purpose. hmm seems like a good idea. needs testing tho.

2) overlapping peg to base AND base to peg, Both pilots roll a defense die (or perhaps only the pilot with the highest pilot skill? and the lesser pilot takes automatic damage?). Failure to roll an evade icon results in that player taking one damage card. i actually like the idea in theory of the better pilots getting a defense die or a bonus but im not sure how this will play out.

 

any thought and feedback are welcome.

 


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

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#22 Baphomet69

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 01:22 PM

 See, to me that is overly complicated. For me, just follow the current overlap rule (bases touching), but add in 'roll one attack die per ship, then roll one evasion per ship'. Easy peasy.

Though I probably would not implement it as a house rule, so as not to get used to it and then go play a tourney… That would mess with my head.



#23 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 03:22 PM

Baphomet69 said:

 See, to me that is overly complicated. For me, just follow the current overlap rule (bases touching), but add in 'roll one attack die per ship, then roll one evasion per ship'. Easy peasy.

Though I probably would not implement it as a house rule, so as not to get used to it and then go play a tourney… That would mess with my head.

 

you might be right. there dioes need to be a balance between complexity and playability, I am just trying to find it. To me the current rule is too simple and i can understand why the designers wanted this to be so. having complex rules for new players is not the best. i do think the rules WILL change in future sets, even if we just see OPTIONAL RULES appearing that cater for everyones tastes.

 

The flying into a parked car example listed earlier in this thread IS simplistic and lends weight to my suggestion for simultaneous movement. All ships are in motion and not 'parked'. why not keep things simple and say that the highest pilot skill keeps his actions, even when bases overlap. no roll. simple. lesser pilots overlapping with bases will still lose their action (as stated in the rules). i know u can argue that the better pilot should not overlap in the 1st place if he chooses the right manouvre but he will, eventually overlap and probably it will be through no fault of his own. Using ships as 'blockers' doesnt fit the theme for me but if this is what we have to do to win, then yes players will do it because we all want to win.


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader


#24 niceas

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:36 PM

 Your plan doesn't account for barrel rolls



#25 ArcticSnake

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:59 PM

The important things to remember when moving are:

1. Higher skilled pilots move last

2. All ships have to move at least [1] space

Why don't you try aiming for the spot that the lower skilled pilots were last? That way, you don't have to collide with anything. Then mix it up a bit so that you don't get too predictable.


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#26 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:59 PM

 good tip, thanks.

 


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader


#27 kmanweiss

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 04:43 AM

Practice helps.

The first couple games I played as the Empire looked like my squad had just left the cantina after a night of heavy drinking.  With some experience you can plan moves better and anticipate enemy movements.  I've yet to find forcing collisions as a good plan though.  You need several Ties to block various angles of escape, and then to get ships into thos positions typically puts them at odd angles where they can't do anything anyways.  I'd rather set them up to focus fire on a ship than try to make the enemy lose an action.

As for the greater skilled pilot losing his action as opposed to the rookies.  This vexxed me for awhile, but I actually came across a thematic explanation that has worked for explaining it to others.  The fighters are all moving in space at the same time, we just take turns moving them in the game for simplicity.  The rookie pilots are dedicating themselves to an action before they really know whats going on…they aren't experienced enough to think on the fly (no pun intended).  The experienced pilots are reacting to the situation presented to them during the battle, so they can react to other pilots actions. So far this explains the turn order system in place.

Academy Tie moves and picks focus hoping someone will fall into his firing arc so he can shoot them.  Wedge either ends up with a firing solution on the tie and picks focus/target lock or end up in the Tie's firing arc and picks focus to survive the blast.

Rookie Xwing moves and picks focus as he has no idea if anyone will be in his arc or he'll be in someone else's arc.  Mauler can then move and decide if he needs to roll out of the Rookie's arc, or into a firing position, or if rolling won't help, he can take an evade, or if he has a firing solution he can go with focus.

Now for the collisions, just expand the logic a bit.  The rookie/academy pilot are dedicating themselves to a move and action.  They have no concern about who's behind them, beside them, above them, or behind them.  They are flying and deciding on an action and really hopeing it will be the right thing to do.  Wedge/Mauler are also flying towards that same position and waiting until they line up a shot to decide on what action to perform when suddenly the collision alarms go off and an enemy ship flies right in front of them.  Instead of target locking, rolling, evading, or focusing, the experienced pilot is forced to perform an evasive manuever to avoid collision.  The manuever puts them in a different location than they expected and made a plan for.  It also means instead of cooly gliding into an attack position and getting a target lock they had to do everything to avoid the collision.  The rookie was already dedicated to his move and didn't have the piloting skill to react to and avoid the collision, so the more experienced pilot had to make the sacrifice to avoid the rookie.

Much like that rookie high school driver who ran the stop sign because he was too busy texting, you the experienced adult driver who was paying attention to traffic needs to avoid the collision instead of continuing through the intersection and changing the radio station as you had planned.  The high school kid continued driving as he had planned and continued texting without any idea that he was nearly T-boned for running a stop sign.

Ta-da!  Thematic explanation with real life analogy.



#28 Parakitor

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 05:34 AM

 @ Strombole: Awesome response. I would love to play against you just to see you in action, even if I got whooped. Sounds like it would be a sight to behold!

@ kmanweiss: Excellent analogy and thematic explanation. Gotta say that if it were between losing my action or dealing damage to both me and my opponent, I'd choose to lose an action every time. Although I guess I can see where other people would just like to have that option open to them, rather than decided for them.


"That starship won't fly, Bastila."


#29 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:21 AM

kmanweiss said:

Practice helps.

The first couple games I played as the Empire looked like my squad had just left the cantina after a night of heavy drinking.  With some experience you can plan moves better and anticipate enemy movements.  I've yet to find forcing collisions as a good plan though.  You need several Ties to block various angles of escape, and then to get ships into thos positions typically puts them at odd angles where they can't do anything anyways.  I'd rather set them up to focus fire on a ship than try to make the enemy lose an action.

As for the greater skilled pilot losing his action as opposed to the rookies.  This vexxed me for awhile, but I actually came across a thematic explanation that has worked for explaining it to others.  The fighters are all moving in space at the same time, we just take turns moving them in the game for simplicity.  The rookie pilots are dedicating themselves to an action before they really know whats going on…they aren't experienced enough to think on the fly (no pun intended).  The experienced pilots are reacting to the situation presented to them during the battle, so they can react to other pilots actions. So far this explains the turn order system in place.

Academy Tie moves and picks focus hoping someone will fall into his firing arc so he can shoot them.  Wedge either ends up with a firing solution on the tie and picks focus/target lock or end up in the Tie's firing arc and picks focus to survive the blast.

Rookie Xwing moves and picks focus as he has no idea if anyone will be in his arc or he'll be in someone else's arc.  Mauler can then move and decide if he needs to roll out of the Rookie's arc, or into a firing position, or if rolling won't help, he can take an evade, or if he has a firing solution he can go with focus.

Now for the collisions, just expand the logic a bit.  The rookie/academy pilot are dedicating themselves to a move and action.  They have no concern about who's behind them, beside them, above them, or behind them.  They are flying and deciding on an action and really hopeing it will be the right thing to do.  Wedge/Mauler are also flying towards that same position and waiting until they line up a shot to decide on what action to perform when suddenly the collision alarms go off and an enemy ship flies right in front of them.  Instead of target locking, rolling, evading, or focusing, the experienced pilot is forced to perform an evasive manuever to avoid collision.  The manuever puts them in a different location than they expected and made a plan for.  It also means instead of cooly gliding into an attack position and getting a target lock they had to do everything to avoid the collision.  The rookie was already dedicated to his move and didn't have the piloting skill to react to and avoid the collision, so the more experienced pilot had to make the sacrifice to avoid the rookie.

Much like that rookie high school driver who ran the stop sign because he was too busy texting, you the experienced adult driver who was paying attention to traffic needs to avoid the collision instead of continuing through the intersection and changing the radio station as you had planned.  The high school kid continued driving as he had planned and continued texting without any idea that he was nearly T-boned for running a stop sign.

Ta-da!  Thematic explanation with real life analogy.

impressive explaination. most impressive. it all makes sense. thanx!


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader


#30 Daveydavedave

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:28 AM

 I love the rules as written. 

It makes sense that when moving into the space occupied by another ship a pilot has to avoid a collision, thus spending ther attention and losing their action. 

More importantly, from an abstract rules perspective, the rule is simple and elegant. Some of the suggestions made in this thread are pretty complicated and cumbersome.

I love using cheap ties to swarm the likely path of an expensive x-wing pilots likely movement path. The alliance can sometimes do similar maneuvers.

The point is: it really matters how you move. Risk management is the whole game.



#31 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 05:07 PM

Daveydavedave said:

 I love the rules as written. 

It makes sense that when moving into the space occupied by another ship a pilot has to avoid a collision, thus spending ther attention and losing their action. 

More importantly, from an abstract rules perspective, the rule is simple and elegant. Some of the suggestions made in this thread are pretty complicated and cumbersome.

I love using cheap ties to swarm the likely path of an expensive x-wing pilots likely movement path. The alliance can sometimes do similar maneuvers.

The point is: it really matters how you move. Risk management is the whole game.

 

yes. i can see now that cheap guys is a gr8 option for u if u r going to maximize the rules. quite clever work by the designers.

 


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader


#32 dvang

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 05:01 AM

If you can use the ships themselves, with the threat of collision as a weapon, then it changes the gameplay significantly. It favors the Empire significantly, as they have more ships and are more maneuverable.

Also, with the ordered movement, you would somehow need to keep track of which ships had been collided with earlier in the movement. As it is now, it only concerns the active ship.

The simple fact is that it encourages more and better tactical maneuvering if overlap only (and negatively) affects the actively moving ship.



#33 sepayne7l

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 09:46 AM

I'm good with the rules. The one who does the hitting gets the worst of it.



#34 drkjedi35

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 10:28 AM

I think you guys need to stop thinking about it as a collision.  The word collision is no where in the rulebook.  This is just the rules for overlapping bases.  Nothing more.  This game hasn't even been on the street for a month yet and you're trying to change the rules.  Please, try playing the game for a while with the rules that came in the box.  The more you play, the better you get at choosing maneuvers, and the occasional base overlap won't be that big of a deal to you anymore.

Roy






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