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Incorporating the treasure cards back in(?)


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#101 Sausageman

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:36 AM

Macnme said:

D1 & D2 are quite different games, even if they do share the same core game mechanics.

Personally, I feel this is the crux of the matter, and why many have such strong feelings on this subject.  We were told we were getting a new edition of the game - so expected little more than some cleaner rules, but ultimately, the same game.

This is SO far from what was actually delivered (It's 4th Ed D&D to 3.5.  Or hell, 3rd Ed Warhammer to 2nd edition - and you don't have to look far to see the vitriol towards either of those).  Had they called Descent 2 a different name, there would be no problem, but personally, aside from the aesthetic, I really don't see the similarities between the two games.  This is the issue - peoples beloved game was ceased to be supported, and instead it was replaced with an entirely different game…  A big shame to nathrotep, and I know me and my game group largely feel the same too.

My biggest issue with D2 is the thing nathrotep has mentioned repeatedly - they have stripped away so much of the customisation that was there in first edition.  I really hope future expansions see much of this get re-introduced, but sadly I'm not convinced it will.

One thing I was thinking about when reading this thread - if I were to play 1st edition, what rules/mechanics from second edition would I utilise.  And if I was to play 2nd edition, what rules/mechanicas would I take from 1st….  The list for the latter is CONSIDERABLY longer….

Lastly, while I agree personal preference is entirely subjective, it's not always the case that an opinion is wrong.  It is cold hard fact that Settlers of Catan is a better game than 'Chutes and Ladders' (or Snakes and Ladders, depending on your territory).  Just thought I'd say  ;)



#102 Robin

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:15 AM

And it is sure that oranges are better than apples (or whas it the contrary)?burla


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#103 nathrotep

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:48 PM

I don't have a problem with your preference in fruit. But the word

"preference" denotes that you have tried both varieties and are fully

prepared to make a choice based on the comparison.

 

You cannot simply say, "Say, there! I really like oranges! They are the best

fruit ever! And, although I have never tried, and will never, ever in a million years

try apples, I can tell you that, by far, oranges are the tastier of the two

delectables! In fact, I read somewhere that apples are horrible! Just the absolute worst! Since

I have clearly read this, that means it's a fact, and so I don't have to ever try apples to

see if it's true or not!"

 

Macnme, you have many great points, and as you can see, I'm not berating people for their

choice in games. I am berating people WHO HAVE NEVER EVEN PLAYED Descent first

edition, yet still claim it's the weaker title. At least you have played the game, and

admit that it is a good one. Most of these people on here have never even seen it. My gaming

group played Descent 2 when it was demo'd, and thought it was awful compared to the first

one. It was a real let down to us all. You obviously see something in it that we don't.

And that's entirely okay with me.

 

Sausagman; as always, you put things more eloquently than I do, and are entirely right.

I suppose that both games have merit, but as you have pointed out, this aint the Descent

we were hoping for. As I've said before, this was like playing Tic-Tac-Toe after playing Chess.

And that's just sad. We expected so much more.

 

It's a good thing I love many of Fantasy Flights other games. We sure won't ever be playing

Descent second edition, or collecting the expansions. We're really excited about the up and coming, 'Relic', though.

This title looks compelling; it'll be interesting to see the Warhammer stuff mixed

with Talisman game mechanics.

 

 



#104 Robin

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:47 AM

What if the question about which version is better or worse had no interest? You are the only one who believes he can objectively say that an edition is better than the other one. BTW, even of Idid not play D1, I read its rules when they were available online. They were so cumbersome that Idid not even want to try the game. But here, in the present debate, you are about the only one who tries to claim "mine is better than yours". I don't know what is the inner urge that leads you to try to make us swallow your claim as truth. We are here on the D2 forum, which is devoted topeople who like D2 (and don't give a d@mn about what D1 is or should I say was about).
An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#105 nathrotep

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 04:59 AM

Robin,

I'm sorry that you where unable to understand the instructions enough to

play the game. That must be very limiting for you. It's a good thing that

they made a so much simpler game for you to enjoy. Might I also

suggest checkers as an alternative if you ever get bored of Descent 2?



#106 Robin

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 08:52 AM

I did understand the rules (I play ASL as mymain game ). I simply found that D1 rules were cumbersome and too much a fuss to give them a go with my usual gaming partners. May I suggest you stop twisting my thoughts. Try not to behave like a troll (which you seem to be from the beginning)?
An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#107 Steve-O

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 01:12 PM

Stop.

Feeding.

The.

Troll.

Am I the only one who can see that Nath is just spewing crap to egg people on here?



#108 Sausageman

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:10 AM

Steve-O said:

Am I the only one who can see that Nath is just spewing crap to egg people on here?

He is a little, but I also believe he believes what he's saying - because by and large I completely agree with many of the things he's said.  He obviously can't understand how people are finding D2 to be a superior game - and I get that too.  Sure, D1 had issues, many issues in fact, there were things I flat out hated in it (the shadowcloaking trees….), but it still felt more *fun* to me.  D2 feels like it went too far in 'fixing' things.  It's no longer a dungeon bash game - hell, it seems combat is little more than a distraction now.  And that's fine, if you want to play what is essentially a glorified race game now, but in making this, they obsoleted D1 - which WAS a dungeon bash game, and many people loved it.

I live in hope that through expansions things get added to D2 to address many of the issues I have with it, but until that point, I'm struggling to understand why I'd play D2 over D1…  Which is really gutting, I really enjoyed Descent a lot.



#109 Robin

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:24 AM

Sausageman said:

Steve-O said:

 

Am I the only one who can see that Nath is just spewing crap to egg people on here?

 

He is a little, but I also believe he believes what he's saying - because by and large I completely agree with many of the things he's said.  He obviously can't understand how people are finding D2 to be a superior game - and I get that too.  Sure, D1 had issues, many issues in fact, there were things I flat out hated in it (the shadowcloaking trees….), but it still felt more *fun* to me.  D2 feels like it went too far in 'fixing' things.  It's no longer a dungeon bash game - hell, it seems combat is little more than a distraction now.  And that's fine, if you want to play what is essentially a glorified race game now, but in making this, they obsoleted D1 - which WAS a dungeon bash game, and many people loved it.

 

I live in hope that through expansions things get added to D2 to address many of the issues I have with it, but until that point, I'm struggling to understand why I'd play D2 over D1…  Which is really gutting, I really enjoyed Descent a lot.

Nobody except you and him is trying to say that one system is better than the other one.

But, you happen to be on D2's forum.

So coming on this precise forum just to say that the game it is about is crap… well, that is quite near to trolling.

What if I went to a soccer club just to say that rugby is so better ?

Even if I believed what I was saying, I would just be bloody rude and at the wrong place.

So, you and nathrotep have now expressed your discontent about D2. Would you expect from most D2 players who like their game to be interested in your preference for a discontinued game system?

The only healthy reaction you can expect is : I like D2, I am not interested in anyone bragging that one game is better than the other. I am not even interested in a futile polemic, while I am having fun with D2.

So, as you don't like D2 and don't stand that other people like that game, hit the road and stop trolling.


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#110 Sausageman

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:07 AM

Robin said:

Nobody except you and him is trying to say that one system is better than the other one.

 

But, you happen to be on D2's forum.

So coming on this precise forum just to say that the game it is about is crap… well, that is quite near to trolling.

What if I went to a soccer club just to say that rugby is so better ?

Even if I believed what I was saying, I would just be bloody rude and at the wrong place.

So, you and nathrotep have now expressed your discontent about D2. Would you expect from most D2 players who like their game to be interested in your preference for a discontinued game system?

The only healthy reaction you can expect is : I like D2, I am not interested in anyone bragging that one game is better than the other. I am not even interested in a futile polemic, while I am having fun with D2.

So, as you don't like D2 and don't stand that other people like that game, hit the road and stop trolling.

That's pretty unfair for a number of reasons.

Firstly, why is it trolling to express perceived flaws the game?  Perhaps you can point out what I said that was 'trolling' specifically…

Secondly, in my eyes, these are the 'Descent' forums, not Descent 2.  The older ones were closed, so there is no where else to have conversations of this nature.  Besides, this thread was about reintriducing elements of 1st edition back into second, and sure, while it has evolved somewhat (as most conversations do), is that not relevant to discuss on this forum?

And I'll thank you to not tell me to 'hit the road' - I have just as much right to read and post on this forum as any one else.  Only the mods can tell me to 'hit the road', and until I break some kind of rule, I can't see that happening.  Feel my post is inflamatory in some way though, report me.

The only part of your post of any relevence is, in my eyes, your comparison of 'soccer' to rugby.  These are as different as D1 to D2 are.  And that is, fundamentally, the point that was being made.



#111 The Reaper

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 02:42 AM

Wow….

I'm more of a lurker on these sites, owning quite a few of the games and all but felt compelled to post in support of the guys expressing opinions and discussing the differences and pros/cons between 1st and 2nd editions of Descent here. 

I'm a fairly experienced gamer and have been part of various forums across a few different games over the years and accusing people of being trolls and dismissing what looks like some pretty relevant and interesting points and concerns is pretty closed minded and ignorant at best and well, I won't write what I think at worst.

The bit that I find most ridiculous is that in a thread about incorporating part of 1st Ed into 2nd Ed, people are being accused of 'trolling' in favour of 1st Ed. Bizarre, especially when there's no real forum for 1st Ed any more from what I understand. 

Perhaps people could have made their points better or less passionately but it certainly seems from a casual readers POV that some of those points are pretty valid and worthy of discussion, given that these are the official forums and you'd like to think people were reading/watching from FFG…..

I have played both Editions and happen to also agree (at least in part) in that 1st Ed is much more my type of game and has more going for it than 2nd Ed which I feel lost some important elements in the trimming. 

Not interested in getting into any kind of discussion myself but for Pete's sake open your mind a bit on a *discussion forum*.

 

 

 

 

 



#112 Robin

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 07:09 AM

The Reaper said:

The bit that I find most ridiculous is that in a thread about incorporating part of 1st Ed into 2nd Ed, people are being accused of 'trolling' in favour of 1st Ed. Bizarre, especially when there's no real forum for 1st Ed any more from what I understand. 

The trolling is certainly not about evoking a possible variant (by incorporating a D1 element in D2).
It is about continuously sayng that D2 is BS and that D1 is better.

 

There is a D1 forum on BGG.
But D1 is a discontinued game, so FFG does not offer a forum for it anymore.

The Reaper said:

Perhaps people could have made their points better or less passionately but it certainly seems from a casual readers POV that some of those points are pretty valid and worthy of discussion, given that these are the official forums and you'd like to think people were reading/watching from FFG….. 

It is not about being passionate.
It is not about "validity" of a point of view.
It is about coming in the D2 forum, just to go on and on saying that D2 is not a good game and trying to force other forum members into a comparison that only interests D1-only afficionados.

 

The Reaper said:

I have played both Editions and happen to also agree (at least in part) in that 1st Ed is much more my type of game and has more going for it than 2nd Ed which I feel lost some important elements in the trimming. 

You express a personal reference.
And you implicitly admit that your subjectivity is part of your opinion.
That is a perfectly acceptable way of expressing things - whether one agrees or not with you (or if someone doesn't care).

The OP tries to convince us that his opinion about D1 is an objective one and that the anecdotical examples that he gives are decisive.
That makes all the difference between open dialogue and arrogance.

 

The Reaper said:

Not interested in getting into any kind of discussion myself but for Pete's sake open your mind a bit on a *discussion forum*.

I think you missed where the problem resides.
It is not about having an open mind.
This forum is about D2 and not about D1.
If you prefer Chess over Checkers, would you go on a Checkers forum tell that Chess is a better game?

What is the use doing that, except trying to spew manure on the main topic of the forum?

 

That is what I call trolling and what is commonly admitted as disrupting behaviour.

Now, did those "my D1 is better than your crappy D2" guys need you to rush and save them from we bad Descent 2 forum players who happen to like our game and who are looking for constructive discussion on this forum?
I don't think they did.
But if you now feel better, well, as you wrote, let me say about you : Wow, just wow ! campana


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#113 Robin

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 07:26 AM

Sausageman said:

Firstly, why is it trolling to express perceived flaws the game?

They are not expressed as "percieved", but as objective fact.
And calling the elements debated about "flaws" is certainly excessive.
D2 works fine and the fact that it is different from D1 is not synonymous to it being "flawed".

 

Sausageman said:

Secondly, in my eyes, these are the 'Descent' forums, not Descent 2.  The older ones were closed, so there is no where else to have conversations of this nature.

You have BGG.
And, as you consider that D1 is so much superior over D2, I am sure that tons of forums will be created by enthusiastic D1 players who will prove that FFG's choice to discontinue the game was wrong.

 

Sausageman said:

Besides, this thread was about reintriducing elements of 1st edition back into second, and sure, while it has evolved somewhat (as most conversations do), is that not relevant to discuss on this forum?

It was not just about reintroducing elements of 1st edition.
It was backed by a rejection of the D2 system and attempting to turn D2 into a D1 hybrid.

 

Sausageman said:

And I'll thank you to not tell me to 'hit the road' - I have just as much right to read and post on this forum as any one else.  Only the mods can tell me to 'hit the road', and until I break some kind of rule, I can't see that happening.  Feel my post is inflamatory in some way though, report me.

If you find usefull to try to explain to D2 players that the game is crap, well go on.
But I don't see that as constuctive.

 

Sausageman said:

The only part of your post of any relevence is, in my eyes, your comparison of 'soccer' to rugby.  These are as different as D1 to D2 are.  And that is, fundamentally, the point that was being made.

At least, you understood me on that point.
From that point, what is the use to try to compare those games and to convince (or provoke?) D2 players that their game is inferior to D1.

 

As already expressed, I don't mind that someone prefers D1.
But I don't accept the claim that such an opinion is objective fact.
Otherwise, all the previous D1 players who now prefer D2 would be stupid people.
If you don't catch the arrogance of claiming to be objective in such a question, I don't know what to say more.

Ask yourself who is the narrow minded in this debate:
Those who don't care about trying to "prove" that their game is better than the other edition or those who don't care about such childish comparisons and who consider that one can like one or the other without being a moron?


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#114 Robin

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 08:09 AM

Oh, btw, the title of this forum is "Descent: Journeys in the Dark Second Edition", not "Descent".

That is fact, not my opinion.


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#115 Mistersam

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:01 AM

Robin said:

This forum is about D2 and not about D1.
If you prefer Chess over Checkers, would you go on a Checkers forum tell that Chess is a better game?

Ummm bad exemple, Its the second edition of Descent, its supose to be the same game but with better mechanic, designs, new stuff, correcting what they did wrong with the first edition. Its normal to compare them.

I think the problem is not descent 2ed, but everyone who want so bad a good Dungeon crawl. I wanted a new advance heroquest or Warhammerquest kind of Dungeon Crawl when I heard about the second edition. I was dissapointed about descent 2ed, but its a good game.



#116 nathrotep

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 07:33 AM

Robin;

 

It's a simple fact that descent first edition is the superior game.

I'm not talking about personal preference, nor am I here to force

you to like it. I came on here to discuss the vast differences,

inadequacies, and missing game elements between the two games.

They hyped up this game as a better and more streamlined

version of Descent first edition. Then I played it,

and it was not. It's just that simple.

You defeat yourself with your own argument regardless since

you have nothing to form your observations on. How do you know

it's not 'flawed' if you have never played both? If I cannot say

that Descent first edition is the better game, then you cannot

say that descent second edition is not flawed in comparison.

You bask in your own ignorance, and to you that must be bliss.

Why are you getting so worked up about this anyway? You

clearly enjoy the second game, clearly cannot grasp the

differences between two, and clearly don't care. Why don't you

just play the simple games that work for you best and not worry

about the rest? It's not trolling to debate the virtues, or lack

thereof, of the two games. It's educational, and it lets people

know what the differences are, and what they are possibly

missing out on. To come on here and attack my position,

especially with such a lack of concrete experience, would seem

to me to be a futile waste of your time. Why bother?

 






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