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Edge of the Empire Beta Update: Week 3


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#21 Shakespearian_Soldier

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 04:05 AM

TheRedBaron said:

Uh. Yeah.

Disruptors need to be able to disintegrate parts or people. They're nasty and illegal for that very reason! That's why Vader says "No disintegrations!" to Fett in Empire! They're illegal, dangerous, rare weapons! Why were they gutted?

Lightsabers need to be able to cut through things. I can see why they took Breach off, I can, because Breach was amazingly powerful. I'd really prefer if they gave the sabers Pierce 2 or even Pierce 3, because no Piercing or Breach makes absolutely zero sense considering what we see lightsabers do.

There is a very easy way to overcome this, of course: merely add the quality to lightsabers in your own game. :) I plan on keeping Breach, or replacing it with Pierce 2, at least until playtesting proves either course to be ill-advised or unfitting.


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#22 korjik

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:17 AM

blittlepage said:

Lightsabers are capable of cutting through anything, given enough time.

Qui-Gonn was cutting through doors and blast doors, but not in a single stroke. He abandoned his time-consuming task when other concerns required his attention.

Single strokes of a lightsaber are capable of cutting through wrists, necks, and battle droid parts but not everything the lightsaber comes into contact with.

The rules represent the latter with Sunder and the easy Crits.

Breach as a quality implies that the lightsaber could immediately cut through anything and that is not a quality of a lightsaber.

Breach implies that the lightsaber could immediately cut through anything character scale. Qui-gon was cutting through the bridge door with ease before the vehicle scale blast doors were closed. Even then, it was only going to take several rounds to cut through. Depending on how blast doors are implemented, and how damaging objects is implemented, this could actually mean that lightsabers are actually Breach 2 or more.

Thing is, once you have breach 1, more breach is actually not going to affect character scale combat.

Looking at the vehicles tho, few of the speeders have armour at all, and they have few hull integrity. It isnt until you want to cut up TIE fighters that the breach is actually going to come into play.

Has anyone seen how the lightsaber act in actual play? and how the changes affect that?



#23 selderane

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:19 AM

I'm still not sure why the lightsaber is Defensive.  Or any melee weapon for that matter.


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#24 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:21 AM

GM Chris said:

Love all these updates.  Only one thing I'm uncertain about… I fear the lightsaber might have been needed too much.  Mainly, the removal of Breach.  It's such an iconic ability of lightsabers… 

It also doesn't make sense to me how a vibroaxe is now more Vicious than a lightsaber.

Agreed on the loss of Breach for lightsabers.  Loss of Deflection is fine, as that really should be a "Jedi only" trait rather than an inherent weapon quality.

As for the Vicious, perhaps it's a case of the lightsaber cauterizing as it cuts, where the vibro-ax (or really any of the vibro-weapons) is more akin to getting slashed at by a chainsaw; i.e. a lot messier and more painful?

As for the re-pricing of several weapons, the lowered cost of the light blaster and blaster pistol makes the default/official starting allotment of 500 credits less of a sticking point for me, so that's good.

Disruptor weapons losing the "insta-kill" ability is also fine, though I still thing the slugthrower weapons should have their range categories boosted one degree, even if it means a corresponding increase in cost (maybe double, triple at most?).


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#25 FFG_Sam Stewart

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:22 AM

Hello everyone,

In the matter of lightsabers, the intention was to remove Defensive 2, and leave Breach 1, which we unfortunately mixed up (along with the "close" range in most of the grenades). Consider it changed to reflect this, as it will be in the next week's update.

Again, sorry for the confusion. Our intention was to keep it with Breach to represent the lightsaber's cutting ability, but remove qualities that the lightsaber should only have in the hands of a skilled (and possibly Force sensitive) user. 

Thanks!

 



#26 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:25 AM

selderane said:

I'm still not sure why the lightsaber is Defensive.  Or any melee weapon for that matter.

In the case of lightsaber, it's probably more of a case that anyone attacking a person wielding a glowing energy stick capable of lopping off limbs is going to be wary of leaving themselves too open when making their own close-quarters.  Also, swords historically are noted for being a decent balance between defense and offense without outright sucking at either; for instance, the axe is a primarily offensive weapon, ill-suited for parrying incoming attacks but great and hewing through a foe's defenses.


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#27 Chrislee66

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:40 AM

FFG_Sam Stewart said:

Hello everyone,

In the matter of lightsabers, the intention was to remove Defensive 2, and leave Breach 1, which we unfortunately mixed up (along with the "close" range in most of the grenades). Consider it changed to reflect this, as it will be in the next week's update.

Again, sorry for the confusion. Our intention was to keep it with Breach to represent the lightsaber's cutting ability, but remove qualities that the lightsaber should only have in the hands of a skilled (and possibly Force sensitive) user. 

Thanks!

 

 

Thanks for the update, that makes a lot more sense. 



#28 usgrandprix

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:49 AM

FFG_Sam Stewart said:

Hello everyone,

In the matter of lightsabers, the intention was to remove Defensive 2, and leave Breach 1, which we unfortunately mixed up (along with the "close" range in most of the grenades). Consider it changed to reflect this, as it will be in the next week's update.

Again, sorry for the confusion. Our intention was to keep it with Breach to represent the lightsaber's cutting ability, but remove qualities that the lightsaber should only have in the hands of a skilled (and possibly Force sensitive) user. 

Thanks!

 

 

Good call. I recommend talents (possibly ranked) that a Jedi/Force user can buy to up melee defense when using a saber and to use a saber to deflect and ultimately target enemies with blaster deflections.



#29 TheRedBaron

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 06:09 AM

Perfect. I'm totally happy with Breach 1.



#30 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 06:15 AM

FFG_Sam Stewart said:

 

Hello everyone,

In the matter of lightsabers, the intention was to remove Defensive 2, and leave Breach 1, which we unfortunately mixed up (along with the "close" range in most of the grenades). Consider it changed to reflect this, as it will be in the next week's update.

Again, sorry for the confusion. Our intention was to keep it with Breach to represent the lightsaber's cutting ability, but remove qualities that the lightsaber should only have in the hands of a skilled (and possibly Force sensitive) user. 

Thanks!

 

 

 

Question then. If lightsabers are losing the Defensive quality, then what about Vibro-swords, which are still listed as having Defensive 1?

As I noted in response to another poster, if any weapon in the Star Wars setting would be well-suited for defending oneself in melee, it'd be a lightsaber.

If I might make a suggestion, perhaps put the Deflection and Defense qualities back in for Lightsabers, but add a caveat under the Lightsaber's entry in the equipment chapter that only a trained user (i.e. someone with one or more ranks in the Lightsaber skill) can make use of those qualities.  Alternatively, require the wielder to have a Force Rating of 1 or better to trigger those qualities, to re-inforce that this is primarily the weapon of an elite group of individuals.

This way, it's still a deadly weapon in the hands of a trained user, but an untrained user (most PCs) aren't going to be quite as fearsome with it.

 

 


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#31 usgrandprix

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 06:34 AM

Donovan Morningfire said:

Question then. If lightsabers are losing the Defensive quality, then what about Vibro-swords, which are still listed as having Defensive 1?

As I noted in response to another poster, if any weapon in the Star Wars setting would be well-suited for defending oneself in melee, it'd be a lightsaber.

If I might make a suggestion, perhaps put the Deflection and Defense qualities back in for Lightsabers, but add a caveat under the Lightsaber's entry in the equipment chapter that only a trained user (i.e. someone with one or more ranks in the Lightsaber skill) can make use of those qualities.  Alternatively, require the wielder to have a Force Rating of 1 or better to trigger those qualities, to re-inforce that this is primarily the weapon of an elite group of individuals.

This way, it's still a deadly weapon in the hands of a trained user, but an untrained user (most PCs) aren't going to be quite as fearsome with it.

 

Those things came to my mind too.

For defensive I can see it for the vibrosword because you can feel its weight. Anyone can use a sword to stop someone from punching you. I think the trick to a lightaber is that it's not natural to use as there is no weight to give it an actual feel. You need to sense its position and speed by other means. The Force helps.

I was thinking about thresholds to activate those qualities too but that's adding new rules. I think the same can be accomplished by requiring talents and Force levels to up defense and deflect. I think the xp cost will help balance Jedi too.

 

 

 



#32 Jegergryte

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 06:38 AM

I think perhaps the lightsaber skill could add the defensive quality - something listed under a future lightsaber skill entry. Melee does this to vibroswords by default (one could argue) - on that note some weapon qualities could require skill training, like for example the defensive quality of vibrosword (and the lightsaber) as Donovan points out. This could be added under quality description or weapon description. So with no ranks in Melee, you don't get the defensive 1 from the vibrosword. I can't think of any other qualities that could have the same requirements though… perhaps snap-shot which I can't find any weapon having.

I think deflection should require a force rating of 1 - or perhaps 2 even to require something more than just "mere" force sensitivity but also training to be able to deflect with the weapon (in addition to having a minimum of 1 ranks in the lightsaber skill). This could then incrementally increase with force rating - or "just" through further talents in the upcoming force and destiny book.

Breach might be good to keep, although a Pierce quality of 3 or 4 could probably simulate the same in most circumstances - although I have no preference to either.

About the slughtrowers, increased range should perhaps be added to the rifle, and perhaps the snap-shot quality added to the pistol… the latter requiring a minimum of 1 rank to activate…?


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#33 Cyril

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 06:55 AM

usgrandprix said:

Donovan Morningfire said:

 

Question then. If lightsabers are losing the Defensive quality, then what about Vibro-swords, which are still listed as having Defensive 1?

As I noted in response to another poster, if any weapon in the Star Wars setting would be well-suited for defending oneself in melee, it'd be a lightsaber.

If I might make a suggestion, perhaps put the Deflection and Defense qualities back in for Lightsabers, but add a caveat under the Lightsaber's entry in the equipment chapter that only a trained user (i.e. someone with one or more ranks in the Lightsaber skill) can make use of those qualities.  Alternatively, require the wielder to have a Force Rating of 1 or better to trigger those qualities, to re-inforce that this is primarily the weapon of an elite group of individuals.

This way, it's still a deadly weapon in the hands of a trained user, but an untrained user (most PCs) aren't going to be quite as fearsome with it.

 

 

Those things came to my mind too.

For defensive I can see it for the vibrosword because you can feel its weight. Anyone can use a sword to stop someone from punching you. I think the trick to a lightaber is that it's not natural to use as there is no weight to give it an actual feel. You need to sense its position and speed by other means. The Force helps.

Regardless of whether or not the weapon has any weight (and this has been a point of contention in the fan community for some time as is the weapon giving off heat), the fact of the matter is that if I saw someone power one of those things on and I had no idea what it was or what it was capable of, I'd think twice before moving in where he can touch me with it, and I'm going to be very careful about where that thing is if I do get in close.

Defensive still makes sense to me as a lightsaber trait. Maybe not Defensive 2, but at the very least Defensive 1.



#34 selderane

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:20 AM

Donovan Morningfire said:

FFG_Sam Stewart said:

 

Hello everyone,

In the matter of lightsabers, the intention was to remove Defensive 2, and leave Breach 1, which we unfortunately mixed up (along with the "close" range in most of the grenades). Consider it changed to reflect this, as it will be in the next week's update.

Again, sorry for the confusion. Our intention was to keep it with Breach to represent the lightsaber's cutting ability, but remove qualities that the lightsaber should only have in the hands of a skilled (and possibly Force sensitive) user. 

Thanks!

 

 

 

Question then. If lightsabers are losing the Defensive quality, then what about Vibro-swords, which are still listed as having Defensive 1?

As I noted in response to another poster, if any weapon in the Star Wars setting would be well-suited for defending oneself in melee, it'd be a lightsaber.

If I might make a suggestion, perhaps put the Deflection and Defense qualities back in for Lightsabers, but add a caveat under the Lightsaber's entry in the equipment chapter that only a trained user (i.e. someone with one or more ranks in the Lightsaber skill) can make use of those qualities.  Alternatively, require the wielder to have a Force Rating of 1 or better to trigger those qualities, to re-inforce that this is primarily the weapon of an elite group of individuals.

This way, it's still a deadly weapon in the hands of a trained user, but an untrained user (most PCs) aren't going to be quite as fearsome with it.

 

 

I would agree that Vibro-swords shouldn't have Defensive either.  Like you suggest for the Lightsaber skill, I'd like to see it attached to trained use in the Melee skill.  I don't see how someone, anyone, untrained in a melee weapon would be adept enough in its usage as to merit the Defensive quality.

But Breach 1, Sunder, Vicious 2 I'm very happy to see on the lightsaber now.  Everything else should be an extension of trained skill usage and the Force.


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#35 selderane

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:25 AM

Cyril said:

usgrandprix said:

 

Donovan Morningfire said:

 

Question then. If lightsabers are losing the Defensive quality, then what about Vibro-swords, which are still listed as having Defensive 1?

As I noted in response to another poster, if any weapon in the Star Wars setting would be well-suited for defending oneself in melee, it'd be a lightsaber.

If I might make a suggestion, perhaps put the Deflection and Defense qualities back in for Lightsabers, but add a caveat under the Lightsaber's entry in the equipment chapter that only a trained user (i.e. someone with one or more ranks in the Lightsaber skill) can make use of those qualities.  Alternatively, require the wielder to have a Force Rating of 1 or better to trigger those qualities, to re-inforce that this is primarily the weapon of an elite group of individuals.

This way, it's still a deadly weapon in the hands of a trained user, but an untrained user (most PCs) aren't going to be quite as fearsome with it.

 

 

Those things came to my mind too.

For defensive I can see it for the vibrosword because you can feel its weight. Anyone can use a sword to stop someone from punching you. I think the trick to a lightaber is that it's not natural to use as there is no weight to give it an actual feel. You need to sense its position and speed by other means. The Force helps.

 

 

Regardless of whether or not the weapon has any weight (and this has been a point of contention in the fan community for some time as is the weapon giving off heat), the fact of the matter is that if I saw someone power one of those things on and I had no idea what it was or what it was capable of, I'd think twice before moving in where he can touch me with it, and I'm going to be very careful about where that thing is if I do get in close.

Defensive still makes sense to me as a lightsaber trait. Maybe not Defensive 2, but at the very least Defensive 1.

And if you encounter someone familiar with the weapon, or one like it?  Or someone who simply doesn't care?

No, Defensive on the item itself makes no sense.  Also, the description for the Defensive quality makes it clear that the ability comes from the nature of the item itself, not your enemy's reaction to it.


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#36 usgrandprix

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:47 AM

Cyril said:

 

 

Regardless of whether or not the weapon has any weight (and this has been a point of contention in the fan community for some time as is the weapon giving off heat), the fact of the matter is that if I saw someone power one of those things on and I had no idea what it was or what it was capable of, I'd think twice before moving in where he can touch me with it, and I'm going to be very careful about where that thing is if I do get in close.

Defensive still makes sense to me as a lightsaber trait. Maybe not Defensive 2, but at the very least Defensive 1.

I can see the case for making it Defensive 1. But I think it's equally or more important to make its defensive qualities relative to the user's skill. Obi Wan with a lightsaber should have a defense of like 6 where han solo with a lightsaber should not. LS defense should be a function of skill mainly and some the quality of the weapon.

On a similar note, I do want to see the capabilitiy, with training and the Force, for a very high defense with a saber to reflect the battles in the movies. Lots of blocks and then one good hit basically decides it. I hated in saga how you could take like 4-5 hits from a saber at level 10. Silliness. Maybe lightsabers should be highly defensive against…lightsabers.



#37 OB-1

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:31 AM

Callidon said:

 

*Autofire:  Once the Jury Rig loophole is closed up (I'm assuming next week), it'll be better.  Between the Autofire, Walking Fire and Making Ranged Attacks at Engaged Targets rules, it should work out okay (you are upgrading the dice pool one step & increasing the difficulty by 2).  That being said, the wording on Making Ranged Attacks at Engaged Targets needs to remove the Despair requirement.  What I mean by that is the text on pg 136 reads .."that [Despair Symbol] IS immediately spent"…  In my opinion "is" should be changed to "can be."  Despair, Triumph, Advantage and Threat should be left up to the group to spend.  If something needs to happen on a test it should be wired into the success or failure of the test since those are pretty much non-negotiable.

 

 

Regarding Autofire, I played (GM'd)  Episode I of the Adventure Crates of Krayts", with 3 players, one playing a Han Solo type Smuggler/Scoundrel/Pilot, other a Force User (sense) Bodyguard and the third one a Bounty Hunter/Assassin.

The last character used a blaster rifle with autofire, had level 4 agility, and a sole rank in Heavy Ranged Weapons.

The first ones had Agility 3 and maybe a rank in Light Ranged Weapons. Used a Blaster Pistol each.

The end result was: Smuggler: 2 kills, Bodyguard: 2 Kills, Bounty Hunter: 10 Kills. 2of3 player characters were badly wounded, but suffered no critical hits.

This experience diden't felt wrong or unbalanced. I think the reasons are:

1. The only character that was only shooting the whole engagement was the Bounty Hunter, maybe 6 rounds worth of fighting.

2. The Smuggler started racing towards the ship and later trying to fly her lower towards the narrow canyon, close enough to lower a chain (destiny point spent), and uplift the crates. Spent one or two rounds shooting in between.

3. The Bodyguard remained mostly by the crates, moving them to the ship and when, 2 or 3 rounds from the begining of the engagement, the repolsor sledge was shot and the crate fell, tried first to move it, failed to do so and only then started shooting for only about 3 rounds.

4. All oposition were minions.

5. Narratively speaking, it felt right and proper that the heavy weapon fighter using auto-fire had the most kills. it never felt "unrealistic"

 6. and the other characters always had something to do, often thinking and acting out of the box  solutions to get out of the fight and secure the main objective, which was to retrieve to crates back to the ship and not to die. In short, everybody had fun. 

must test the aoutofire rules again vs. henchmen and nemesis adversaries, but so far they seem fantastic.

 

 

 

 


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#38 GM Chris

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:40 AM

I actually really like the idea of lightsabers and vibro-swords having Defensive 1.

Remember, Defensive only applies to melee attacks.  And those two weapons (basically, swords…) should be able to be used in that capacity, force-abilities or no.  It's just a part of fencing.  You're using your sword AS a shield, basically - to block incoming melee blows.  This is the FIRST thing a fencer learns.


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#39 selderane

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:50 AM

GM Chris said:

I actually really like the idea of lightsabers and vibro-swords having Defensive 1.

Remember, Defensive only applies to melee attacks.  And those two weapons (basically, swords…) should be able to be used in that capacity, force-abilities or no.  It's just a part of fencing.  You're using your sword AS a shield, basically - to block incoming melee blows.  This is the FIRST thing a fencer learns.

Emphasis mine.

Learning means skill.  I have no problem with Defensive being an extension of the Melee or Lightsaber skills.  But inherent to the item itself?

Your own definition says no.


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#40 OB-1

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 09:00 AM

Other things regarding week 3 update:

Liked very much the change in Defensive, by which it only applies to melee now.

I can get behind all the changes to the lightsaber. Specially considering that a skilled user can later better employ the defensive and deflect qualities.

I liked the way it was before, but can understand the change. I think it can be argued that these qualities are intrinsic to the weapon, or learned, or both.

For me Damage 10 and crit 1 are now iconic stapples of jedi weapons this game and woulden't want to see anything else statwise. The crit 1 coupled with vicious 2 is dangerous and properly so. The breach quality is cool, too, and that should be mantained or else changed to high level piercing.

Have no strong opinion on snap shot deletion, but I suppose it was not really needed, being somewhat redundant with autoshot and such.

The only thing I am not sure was a good move was the nerfing in some melee weapons, particularly the lower tier ones, like combat knife.

This because I think +1 or +2 damage might not be enough to prevent or mitigate  the return of the naked Dwarf (Wookie?) sindrome, where a solid hit with a cutting weapon may not be enough to inflit any damage in an opponent with high brawn and soak values. Even considering that the base damage is at least +1 than the printed one on a hit (which is the minimum net sucesses on a hit).

I just remember I had this "naked dwarf sindrome" concern and when I received the beta, reading the weapon stats I noticed that because the weapon damage was significant higher than normal soak and brawn values. I then became more confident that the problem was solved or at least minimized. But I would be wary to lower that much the damage bonus os weapons such as Combat Knife or Vibro Knife. Remember that, IIRC, there are specialization trees, like Marauder, that can increase a character's soak even further, and that can turn a character almost imune to some weapons, even on a solid hit.

Barring only this concern, I think we had a solid update this week.

Just one more (somewhat unrelated) thing: I was thinking that a lightsaber, being such a elegant, almost weightless and mystic weapon, could use Force Rating instead of Brawn of Agility when determining combat check dice. That way, it would be next to useless to somebody without the skill and/or a Force Rating. What do you think?

 

 

 

 

 


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