Jump to content



Photo

Is WFRP 3e being killed off?


  • Please log in to reply
112 replies to this topic

#41 ragnar63

ragnar63

    Member

  • Members
  • 387 posts

Posted 21 September 2012 - 10:13 AM

 

 

BigKahuna said:

 

I can't speak for anyone else but when I say "who cares", I'm kind of saying "no one should".  Another words their is nothing to be upset about because most of what we are talking about here are sort of grey area speculation reactions to other speculations and assumptions which aren't true at all nor are they supported by anything but more speculation.  

For example "FFG doesn't care about their customer", or that "We are just cash to them".  To me, that's being pretty harsh and unrealistic, FFG shows us they care by making great games, they don't have to make a personal phone call to a disgruntle forum poster to give the appearance of "caring" about their customers and to claim that if they don't speak up that their is some sort of speculative "failure" somewhere is obsurd and kind of offensive not just to FFG and the whole development team but to the fans that support them.  Its a sort of propoganda statement that tries to dehumanize a company as if it was some sort of evil corporation out to screw the consumer.  Nothing could be further from the truth, a fact supported by 2 decades of dedication to the development of games.  These guys run a business but its a business made of people who love games and they make them for other people who love games, their is no conspiracy here nor should their be any ill will towards FFG. Bringing this kind of speculation to the forum shows a lack of appriciation for the people who work hard to bring us great games.

This "what have you done for me lately" attitude being displayed on an otherwise great forum about a great role-playing game is weak status in my book. 

 

 

I can honestly say I care about WFRP but don't give a toss about FFG. As to producing great products I am afraid their record has been pretty hit and miss with WFRP. The core system was not playtested thoroughly enough, particularly at levels over Rank 1. In the case of the adventures, the Gathering Storm was perhaps the worst product ever produced under the WFRP banner, while Edge of Night was one of the best. I speak as somebody who has playtested for FFG, though I did not playtest the Core product or the Gathering Storm. I am afraid FFG's lack of communication skills can also be inferred from their lack of communication with some of their freelance writers. I am not sure that FFG does care about WFRP, because the products have been very hit and miss. I think it has proven to be a good test bed for the Star Wars RPG, nothing more



#42 Lumia

Lumia

    Member

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 22 September 2012 - 01:30 AM

This thread actually irritated me enough to register an account.

Long story short, I really disliked the earlier versions of Warhammer RPG. And yeah, I'm one of the many (usually silent) gamers who think D&D tabletop sucks, especially 3.5 and earlier. DnD should only be used for great PC games like Planescape, Baldur's Gate, and Mask of the Betrayer with all the mechanics handled by the PC. Why? In L5R or Trinity or Exalted the dice support your role-playing. In 3.5, you're playing a stylized version of Monopoly or Hero Quest. So count me surprised when WFRPG3 was actually making role-playing a heck of a lot easier with all these tools to avoid people rummaging through >400 pages of rules, and tons of smart system upgrades that make L5R or WW seem outdated.

So yeah, I'm fantastically happy with 3e. Being late to the party, I haven't had time to buy more than 4-5 of the boxes, but the cost is still the same as for an entire competitors gameline. So I'm more than happy with the 1-2 boxes a year policy. Do you really think it is economical for FFG to pump out huge boxes with tons of cards, cardboard, tokens, books and maps every other week? Really? I wouldn't buy that many, and I doubt they'd make a profit.

So of course the game isn't dying. And even if it was, the first thing I'd do is order ever single damn remaining box and as many dice sets I could find before it sold out.

A final note on the hateful attitude here: the grognards who are so antagonistic towards both new games and developers are the problem, not the solution, to the rpg industry fading. Heck, there are 10 million people playing World of Warcraft or probably even more doing free form role-playing on forums. But for some reason we haven't been able to drag more than a handful them into the hobby. For work I moved to a major international city outside of Sweden, and out of 30+ gamers I found, none were even female. But they all sure loved their Pathfinder and 2nd Edition WFRPG. And they sure hated the new systems.

It's as if people would refuse to buy new movies or video games and stick to what was made in 1982, but then look surprised when the creators went belly-up one by one until their industries died. Not exactly rocket science.



#43 James Sparrow

James Sparrow

    Member

  • Members
  • 132 posts

Posted 22 September 2012 - 02:17 AM

Lumia said:

 

A final note on the hateful attitude here: the grognards who are so antagonistic towards both new games and developers are the problem, not the solution, to the rpg industry fading.

And so the Great History repeats itself once more… frustrated WFRP3 fans are cursed as Grognards, as disappointed WFRP2 fan were deemed Grognards before them, indeed as old and weary WFRP1 fans were damned to the land of Grog in the age before.

That's made my day

Cheers

Sparrow



#44 macd21

macd21

    Member

  • Members
  • 918 posts

Posted 23 September 2012 - 04:44 AM

asri said:

BigKahuna said:

 

 

That's the thing though, they don't have a "no communication" policy, they simply don't have a "on customer demand" communication policy, or a "reply to forum posts" policy.  We know everything their is to know right now.

 

Yes, and no. I don't expect them to reply to forum posts (though it would be nice, of course). I do expect, though, that they promote their product. They did not, however, give any interesting/ new tidbits of information on GenCon (which would have been the obvious time and place). And for weeks, the dice packs are out of stock. This diminishes the value of the product line, and as a business company, they should address that - and while they cannot offer the dice, they should reassure customers. By not saying anything, they are losing customers.

So, yes, we know everything there is to know right now. But that does not mean that FFG communication is just fine, because communicating is not just telling what there is to know, but also about staying in relationship (company-customer), kindling interest etc. Put bluntly, FFG seems focused on products, not customers. But ultimately, loyal customers are worth a lot more than cool products.

I like the product. But FFG has missed the chance to make me like them. That's disappointing, because it would have been so easy.

Sure, but (again): that kind of communication costs money to do well. Sure, most other RPG companies communicate more on the forums. Some of them (the bigger, more profitable ones) spend the money needed to do it well. Others just take the risk and wing it, hoping that it doesn't blow up in their faces. See the recent debacle at Redbrick games as an example of what happens when it does blow up in their faces. FFG have chosen to neither spend the money or take the risk of doing it on the cheap. Sure, it risks costing them customers, but I think the number who would stop buying their product over this would be minimal. But doing it on the cheap likewise risks costing them customers. Alternatively they could pay professionals to do the communication, but that would be very costly - you'd need people to cover each and every game line. That in turn would force them to up the cost of their product, which in turn would also lost them customers.

As for "loyal customers are worth more than cool products" - I agree. But I think that cool products result in loyal customers far more than chatting with customers on a net forum. Only a tiny minority of their customers actually read or post here. I think most don't really care or are even aware that there is a communication 'problem'.



#45 Emirikol

Emirikol

    ~Ĉiam subskribi antaŭ-nup kun Fimir

  • Members
  • 5,120 posts

Posted 23 September 2012 - 05:35 AM

That's true for all companies however( companies only have a small number on their forums.)

FFG refuses to communicate with their customers via forum because they don't value their forum fans. 

All other companies encourage their fans on the forums. FFG is beneath industry standard and hence the problem.

 

jh



#46 macd21

macd21

    Member

  • Members
  • 918 posts

Posted 23 September 2012 - 08:59 AM

Emirikol said:

FFG refuses to communicate with their customers via forum because they don't value their forum fans.

No, FFG refuses to communicate with their customers via forum because doing so has costs associated with it - either the cost of employing staff to deal with the forums properly or the costs incurred when someone lacking in communication skills screws up and ruins the company's rep.



#47 Emirikol

Emirikol

    ~Ĉiam subskribi antaŭ-nup kun Fimir

  • Members
  • 5,120 posts

Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:45 AM

Mac, I respect you dude, but I have to disagree.

 

WHat cost?  How much does it cost for Daniel to post once a month, "I'm lurking here, and won't always respond, but we support you guys."  In fact, that's all we're asking.

 

According to my high-salary, typing this post cost about 42 cents.  If FFG can't pay their guys 42 cents more, maybe we've got a bigger problem here. I mean, literally, what kind of cheapass company do they have to be?  My guess is they're not cheapasses, they choose to ignore their forum fans and only consider us to be money on the table.

 

jh



#48 Yepesnopes

Yepesnopes

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,487 posts

Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:50 AM

 Actually, Daniel answers me 95% of the times I ask him something related to the rules through the customer services thing, so probably there is indeed a policy of not participating in the forums.


The Book of the Asur - High Elf fan supplement

The Dark Side - Witches, Warlocks, Dark Magic and more

Secrets of the Anvil - Advanced Dwarf careers and runes

Dice statistics calculator for SW EotE


#49 macd21

macd21

    Member

  • Members
  • 918 posts

Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:55 AM

Emirikol said:

WHat cost?  How much does it cost for Daniel to post once a month, "I'm lurking here, and won't always respond, but we support you guys."  In fact, that's all we're asking.

I'm sorry, but that's rubbish. That is not at all what you are asking for. That would not at all satisfy those that are calling for more interaction on the forums. If that's all they got then they would demand more.

Proper, professional communication on the forums requires hiring someone to look through the threads to pick up on issues that they think should be addressed by staff. He needs to be familiar with the product and savvy enough to know what issues can be ignored and what ones should get a response. That person then needs to find out what the answer to any questions might be - he might be able to answer it himself, but odds are he'll need to discuss it with other staff members. Then he'll need to formulate a response - and not just the first thing that pops into his head. He needs to craft his post in such a way that it doesn't irritate or offend someone (you'd be surprised how easy it is to accidentally piss someone off). He then needs to track the forum response to what he's said and provide answers to follow-up questions.

Now multiply that across multiple threads and across multiple products. Remember we aren't just talking about WFRP here, they'd need to do it for all of their RPG lines at the very least and probably the other games as well (lest other fans get annoyed at the special treatment the RPGs are getting). And you need to do that everyday.

Some RPG companies go to the trouble of setting this up. Others (as mentioned) just wing it - they tell their staff to feel free to partake of the forums on their own time. Sometimes that works out fine, other times you get problems (again, see what happened at Redbrick). FFG don't want to spend the money to deal with it properly and don't want to risk letting their unskilled staff out into the forum wilderness. Personally I'm happy they aren't paying someone to do the job, as it means ever-so-slightly cheaper product for us. And I couldn't care less about their participation on the forums - I don't really see the value in it. The only information I want from the company is already provided - product descriptions and release dates.



#50 Johannes_Tippmeister

Johannes_Tippmeister

    Member

  • Members
  • 71 posts

Posted 23 September 2012 - 11:17 AM

Well, even if posting on the forums is not something they want to do, then publishing a long-term road map like they did at the start would be greatly appreciated. This could be vague, but it would at least show their customers that they are working on *something* in the wfrp line. Currently, they are about as forthcoming about their plans as a secret service.

Imagine Apple cultists would not be out-of-the-loop about the next Apple product (they usually are, it's part of the ritual), but would in fact not know if Apple was even producing new devices at all. For all they knew. Apple might have stopped making hardware.

I see the apocalyptic scene before me… mayhem, chaos, and confused the-end-is-near prophets outside the iHeadquarters!



#51 James Sparrow

James Sparrow

    Member

  • Members
  • 132 posts

Posted 23 September 2012 - 10:14 PM

Johannes_Tippmeister said:

Well, even if posting on the forums is not something they want to do, then publishing a long-term road map like they did at the start would be greatly appreciated. This could be vague, but it would at least show their customers that they are working on *something* in the wfrp line. Currently, they are about as forthcoming about their plans as a secret service.

Imagine Apple cultists would not be out-of-the-loop about the next Apple product (they usually are, it's part of the ritual), but would in fact not know if Apple was even producing new devices at all. For all they knew. Apple might have stopped making hardware.

I see the apocalyptic scene before me… mayhem, chaos, and confused the-end-is-near prophets outside the iHeadquarters!

macd21 is arguing that communications are costly. For Apple it's worth the cost and it has the money to spare; for FFG that's not the case. An annual road-map would not be a  bad idea though - let's face it, the lack of information from GenCon specifically for WFRP seems to have kicked this argument into gear (even though it was grinding along before).

I should say that while I think there should be more information forthcoming from FFG, it's worth noting that regular communication does not equate to quality or reliability. Mongoose is fairly active on its forums, but it produces mediocre material and abandons lines at the drop of a hat.

Cheers

Sparrow



#52 Herr Arnulfe

Herr Arnulfe

    Member

  • Members
  • 361 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:02 AM

James Sparrow said:

 

let's face it, the lack of information from GenCon specifically for WFRP seems to have kicked this argument into gear (even though it was grinding along before).

 

 

There was information provided at GenCon, although probably not the information people were hoping for. A GenCon info summary, just to be clear:

"Here's a few more details about the forthcoming TEW3e. We have other WFRP projects in the pipeline, but our new policy prevents us from discussing future projects too far in advance [flashes PoD slide]."

Maybe when TEW launches they'll announce the next product, or maybe not. They know people desperately want a product announcement, so we can probably take their silence to mean there's nothing "imminent" after TEW.

RPG product line slows to a trickle after first few years - not a new phenomenon. Any non-core freelancers waiting for a call from FFG can probably start looking elsewhere.



#53 James Sparrow

James Sparrow

    Member

  • Members
  • 132 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 02:30 AM

Herr Arnulfe said:

James Sparrow said:

 

let's face it, the lack of information from GenCon specifically for WFRP seems to have kicked this argument into gear (even though it was grinding along before).

 

 

There was information provided at GenCon, although probably not the information people were hoping for. A GenCon info summary, just to be clear:

"Here's a few more details about the forthcoming TEW3e. We have other WFRP projects in the pipeline, but our new policy prevents us from discussing future projects too far in advance [flashes PoD slide]."

Maybe when TEW launches they'll announce the next product, or maybe not. They know people desperately want a product announcement, so we can probably take their silence to mean there's nothing "imminent" after TEW.

RPG product line slows to a trickle after first few years - not a new phenomenon. Any non-core freelancers waiting for a call from FFG can probably start looking elsewhere.

 

My mistake: when I said "lack of information" I should have said "limited information".

Cheers

Sparrow



#54 flyndad

flyndad

    Member

  • Members
  • 147 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 06:02 AM

macd21 said: "I'm sorry, but that's rubbish. That is not at all what you are asking for. That would not at all satisfy those that are calling for more interaction on the forums. If that's all they got then they would demand more."

 

Hey Mac!!  Would you like to explain the dice ??  Am I to assume it is your stance that informing CUSTOMERS of when a product might be available again is "too expensive"?  You are wrong!      It IS all "we" are asking for! 

"Sorry guys,… we got caught off-guard. Dice have been ordered and should be here no later than ________. We will keep ya posted when we get a date from the manufacturer."    

That would just take soooo much labor, and time, and energy, and of course,.. money. I mean, FFG would have to pay a guy to stand next to a phone and he would have to be holding a penc*……… wait a sec,….  Don't they already have a bunch of people near a phone over at corporate? I bet they have pencils too,….  



#55 BigKahuna

BigKahuna

    Member

  • Members
  • 357 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:39 AM

Assuming you have to make lets say 2-3 replies to hot question on each forum, lets say once a month.  For FFG that equates to about 200 forums.  Multiply that by the 2-3 replies per month that comes to about 400-500 posts that would have to be made each month by FFG to satisfy a basic requirement like that.  Add to that the information that needs to be gathered by that person from the literly hundreds of product lines which you can presume no living person is familiar with all of them.  Yeah we are talking 2-3 full time employees if you really wanted to do it right and give accurate information.  I would say that would be a pretty considerable expense.

WFRPG 3.0 is not the only forum, its only one of about 200.  Each of these forums is requesting similiar "communication" and 2-3 replies is really a pretty low ball estimate as their are at least a dozen unanswered questions on these forums alone.

So while answering a simple question like "When can we expect more dice to be released?" would not require a whole lot of work and effort, answering 500 questions like that every month would.



#56 henrysamwise

henrysamwise

    Member

  • Members
  • 21 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 02:46 AM

 If support for WHFRP 3e is going to end with the release of TEW (and I' not saying it will), I'll be interested to see if they develop a 4e, and if that game will hew to the mechanics of the 40k line, or WHFRP 2e. Or if they'll let it linger with no new edition.



#57 James Sparrow

James Sparrow

    Member

  • Members
  • 132 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 02:48 AM

BigKahuna said:

Assuming you have to make lets say 2-3 replies to hot question on each forum, lets say once a month.  For FFG that equates to about 200 forums.  Multiply that by the 2-3 replies per month that comes to about 400-500 posts that would have to be made each month by FFG to satisfy a basic requirement like that.  Add to that the information that needs to be gathered by that person from the literly hundreds of product lines which you can presume no living person is familiar with all of them.  Yeah we are talking 2-3 full time employees if you really wanted to do it right and give accurate information.  I would say that would be a pretty considerable expense.

WFRPG 3.0 is not the only forum, its only one of about 200.  Each of these forums is requesting similiar "communication" and 2-3 replies is really a pretty low ball estimate as their are at least a dozen unanswered questions on these forums alone.

So while answering a simple question like "When can we expect more dice to be released?" would not require a whole lot of work and effort, answering 500 questions like that every month would.

BigKahuna said:

Assuming you have to make lets say 2-3 replies to hot question on each forum, lets say once a month.  For FFG that equates to about 200 forums.  Multiply that by the 2-3 replies per month that comes to about 400-500 posts that would have to be made each month by FFG to satisfy a basic requirement like that.  Add to that the information that needs to be gathered by that person from the literly hundreds of product lines which you can presume no living person is familiar with all of them.  Yeah we are talking 2-3 full time employees if you really wanted to do it right and give accurate information.  I would say that would be a pretty considerable expense.

WFRPG 3.0 is not the only forum, its only one of about 200.  Each of these forums is requesting similiar "communication" and 2-3 replies is really a pretty low ball estimate as their are at least a dozen unanswered questions on these forums alone.

So while answering a simple question like "When can we expect more dice to be released?" would not require a whole lot of work and effort, answering 500 questions like that every month would.

That's a really inefficient and expensive way of setting up a communication system in this context. You don't hire 2-3 communication staff to make 400-500 posts each month and chase information from other people. You have one person already involved with each game line make 2-3 replies a month or provide a single monthly update. Every two months would probably do, and fans would probably be happy for it to be quarterly if it had a reliably fixed date.

Cheers

Sparrow



#58 Yepesnopes

Yepesnopes

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,487 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:31 AM

henrysamwise said:

 If support for WHFRP 3e is going to end with the release of TEW (and I' not saying it will), I'll be interested to see if they develop a 4e, and if that game will hew to the mechanics of the 40k line, or WHFRP 2e. Or if they'll let it linger with no new edition.

Actually I would like that FFG goes for a 4th edition of wfrpg after SW is released. A fourth edition much more like Sw is, with the dice mechanics but without action cards soketing talents or **** like this. If they keep supporting the 3rd edition we are going to end up with more cards than Magic the Gathering!


The Book of the Asur - High Elf fan supplement

The Dark Side - Witches, Warlocks, Dark Magic and more

Secrets of the Anvil - Advanced Dwarf careers and runes

Dice statistics calculator for SW EotE


#59 Ceodryn

Ceodryn

    Member

  • Members
  • 278 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 06:19 AM

Quick question: did anyone actually contacted FFG to ask them nicely when will dices be available?

Just curious. I didn't since I don't play at a table and don't need dices, but it would be a reasonable question of those of you that need dices.

Thanks

Ceodryn



#60 GrimAndPerilous.com

GrimAndPerilous.com

    Member

  • Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 06:34 AM

The bottom line is that there is no excuse for FFG to be devoid of a community manager or open communication in official forums. They need not answer every thread, but a "state of the union" - particularly as stewards of a beloved franchise - would reinvest customers who have many unanswered questions regarding the future of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.

 






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS