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Is WFRP 3e being killed off?


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#21 Daedalum

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:31 PM

Agreed really.

 

..serum anyone?

 

No? Sigh. There goes my plan for raising A FREAKIN ARMY OF ÜBERFANS 



#22 Emirikol

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:55 AM

TorogTarkdacil812 said:

Since I haven´t played any WFRP (2nd or 3rd ed.) from the inception of Dark Heresy, I also don´t frequent this part. You are with no big releases for a while (as was Dark Heresy this year by the way) and you are turning into lynchh mob. From few topics I read I say that some reactions are more whiny than those of an Eldar player…

 

Honestly, we don't give a crap about releases.  Our concern is that they don't care about communication with their customers.  They are beneath the industry standard of communicating with fans other than treating them like little cash machines.

 

You're absolutely right that this is a lynch mob.  Our purpose is to get Frankenstein to step out of his castle and address the mob.

 

jh



#23 Johannes_Tippmeister

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 09:22 AM

What I find a bit discomforting is the patented radio silence FFG likes to keep on their forums. Not knowing if they even write material for wfrp anymore bugs me a lot more than postponed release dates.

This lack of communication lacks style, considering above all that the wfrp community is very creative, productive and certainly not as inflammatory as other groups out there on the internet. I mean, these are supportive people that a community manager could talk to without getting shredded to pieces, I'd like to think. Even something like: "Hi guys, we're working on something but I'm not allowed to talk about it (yet)." would be enough for me at this point.

As for release dates, well, we all play wfrp here so we are used to seeing our beloved setting being published over decades, by all sorts of publishers and fan sites and spread out across all conceivable channels anyhow. If the next thing gets here a few months later it won't kill me, I just would like to know it's in the making.

 



#24 BigKahuna

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 07:22 PM

Most game developers create policies about communications on the forum and for good historical reasons.  In as a whole its a poor business practice even if their is this kind of "community pressure" to be overtly involved on a daily "posting on the forums" level.  The reason is simple.  Everything anyone employed at FFG says on the forum becomes a commitment, even if that post uses vague words like "we might do something", "we are thinking about doing something", "We are talking about doing something".  The community will take any such statements as "We are 100% committed to doing X thing" and before you know it they are demanding an "update on X thing that was promised" and if they don't get one suddenly the company "has lied to them".

FFG is a great company with a very strong history of support for their products, their actions are of a company that makes a promise and follows through on that promise.  They don't owe the consumer a constant stream of updates and information and frankly when I start seeing posts from a developer who says stuff like "we are working on it", I get deeply concerned because it shows a complete lack of confidence.  A strong company releases products when they are ready not when the community demands them to be ready.

In a way its similiar to having a stalker.  Usually they are pretty harmless overly excited fans, but as soon as you reply to a fan letter they suddenly expect regular communication from their "friend" and if they don't get it they go from harmless stalker to hostile and demanding nut job.

 

 



#25 James Sparrow

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 09:45 PM

BigKahuna said:

Most game developers create policies about communications on the forum and for good historical reasons.  In as a whole its a poor business practice even if their is this kind of "community pressure" to be overtly involved on a daily "posting on the forums" level.  The reason is simple.  Everything anyone employed at FFG says on the forum becomes a commitment, even if that post uses vague words like "we might do something", "we are thinking about doing something", "We are talking about doing something".  The community will take any such statements as "We are 100% committed to doing X thing" and before you know it they are demanding an "update on X thing that was promised" and if they don't get one suddenly the company "has lied to them".

FFG is a great company with a very strong history of support for their products, their actions are of a company that makes a promise and follows through on that promise.  They don't owe the consumer a constant stream of updates and information and frankly when I start seeing posts from a developer who says stuff like "we are working on it", I get deeply concerned because it shows a complete lack of confidence.  A strong company releases products when they are ready not when the community demands them to be ready.

In a way its similiar to having a stalker.  Usually they are pretty harmless overly excited fans, but as soon as you reply to a fan letter they suddenly expect regular communication from their "friend" and if they don't get it they go from harmless stalker to hostile and demanding nut job.

 

 

 

There are two thing going on here.The first is that lack of information and little in the release schedule is never a good sign. Those of us who have been following WFRP over the last couple of decades usually know what this means. Some of us knew that BI was on its way out before the people working for BI apparently did. Similarly, it was clear on these forums that WFRP2 was going to be dropped, even though some fans defended and explained FFG's sudden silence, saying things about communications policies and that they were sure FFG was just too busy working on great new supplements. I suppose they were partly right, but perhaps not in the way they meant.

The second point is, FFG is a business. This fact is usually pointed out to uptight fans when they start to have unrealistic demands and expectations. However, poor communication with your customers is bad business. I work for an organisation dealing with a lot of different businesses and companies, and I can assure you that the ones that don't provide updates or just send you brief, simplistic emails saying very little are the ones you don't do business with again. You might tolerate it for a while if a product is good, but eventually you get fed up and look elsewhere. Sure, that company might suddenly tell you about a really good new product they have, but if you have any sense at all you remember what happened the last time you did business with them.

Cheers

Sparrow



#26 macd21

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:36 AM

Good communication is expensive. Poor communication is worse (for FFG) than no communication. As it stands FFG tends to get in trouble for the information it does release, with people complaining about missed released dates and the like.



#27 Yepesnopes

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:03 PM

 I think that there is no way to justify the "no communication" policy, sorry to be rude, but it is like this.

Lately I have been going around through different forums of other rpgs and I cannot believe how big the contrast is. As an example, in the One Ring forums, the designers of the game have even released a correction of the journeying rules due to discussions with the fans in the forums! (I think Emirikol posted it here).


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#28 James Sparrow

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:32 PM

macd21 said:

Good communication is expensive. Poor communication is worse (for FFG) than no communication. As it stands FFG tends to get in trouble for the information it does release, with people complaining about missed released dates and the like.

 

I'm sorry, but this is just pure garbage. Neither is acceptable in any kind of business. You can tolerate failure to deliver - up to a point - as long as you're kept in the loop and know what's going on and why, but hearing nothing at all? No, completely and utterly unacceptable and a certain way to lose customers. We've cancelled orders and walked away from certain suppliers for precisely this reason.

Cheers

Sparrow 



#29 BigKahuna

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:01 AM

Yepesnopes said:

 

 I think that there is no way to justify the "no communication" policy, sorry to be rude, but it is like this.

Lately I have been going around through different forums of other rpgs and I cannot believe how big the contrast is. As an example, in the One Ring forums, the designers of the game have even released a correction of the journeying rules due to discussions with the fans in the forums! (I think Emirikol posted it here).

 

 

That's the thing though, they don't have a "no communication" policy, they simply don't have a "on customer demand" communication policy, or a "reply to forum posts" policy.  We know everything their is to know right now.  They are working on Enemy Within, its scheduled for release in Q4 2012.  That's all there is to know.  That's all that's happening.  If and when the game is discontinued, they will tell us.  If they have a new product to announce, they will announce it. 

My point is that I don't think its appropriate for a business to say "We might be discontinuing this product", or "We may or may not release X book that we are working on".  The hostility on the forums right now I personally think is totally uncalled for.  They have given us a great product and they have supported it.  If its the end of the line for it, than its the end of the line.  All products eventually die off, but as a consumer the only power we have to keep a product alive is with our wallets, you can't "forum post" your way into making a game economically successful.  Whatever happens to this game it will be the result of interest in it and if in fact the interest is low, than it makes perfect sense for them to focus on other projects and reduce their productivity on this one.  For now, Enemy Within is it, it may be the last product or it may not be.  Odds are since they haven't told us one way or the other is because they haven't decided one way or the other.

What kind of answer are you expecting from them?  I mean what do you think they haven't told us yet that they should?  Do people really expect that from speculation about the future of a product on the forums, that the company should come here and give us information like "We are waiting on economic results to decide wether or not to cancel the product line"…. Do you think that will be good for business?  

It seems logical to me that until they make their decesions, they shouldn't say anything, I wouldn't.



#30 James Sparrow

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:50 AM

BigKahuna said:

 

What kind of answer are you expecting from them?  I mean what do you think they haven't told us yet that they should?  Do people really expect that from speculation about the future of a product on the forums, that the company should come here and give us information like "We are waiting on economic results to decide wether or not to cancel the product line"…. Do you think that will be good for business?  

It seems logical to me that until they make their decesions, they shouldn't say anything, I wouldn't.

Your probably right, it may not be good for business. But silence is tantmount to saying the same thing, and I think most people would sooner deal with a company that was open and honest. And let's face it, silence has never been a very good PR policy because it feeds hostile speculation while it persists, and creates even greater resentment if negative facts subsequently emerge.

Cheer

Sparrows



#31 Emirikol

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 05:03 AM

FFG is beneath the industry standard.  All other companies participate on their forums.  If they don't know or can't say somethign they say "we don't know or can't say."  THAT is the industry standard and what is known as "good" customer service.

 

The problem is that we are just little cash machines to them and they don't give a twinkle-turd about their customers on their forums. (I'm sure my eventual banning is on it's way, because I refuse to sit here an defend them for their choices, but we've put in time as fans and have written stuff for THEM for THEIR PRODUCT and they won't even say "hey, we support you guys, but we just don't have a product for you right now.").

 

They are defensless except for a couple of fans who feel the need to defend them.  Why can't they defend themselves?  Because they choose the path that allows people to think of them as uncaring, money-grubbing, giant-corporate elitists who are too good to lower themselves to communicating with their customers like "lesser" companies evidently "lower" themselves to.  Lesser companies like those indie companies such as WotC or Paizo…

 

It's really disgusting actually that they choose not to poke one single keystroke here since Jay Little left.

 

jh

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#32 asri

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 05:12 AM

BigKahuna said:

 

That's the thing though, they don't have a "no communication" policy, they simply don't have a "on customer demand" communication policy, or a "reply to forum posts" policy.  We know everything their is to know right now.

Yes, and no. I don't expect them to reply to forum posts (though it would be nice, of course). I do expect, though, that they promote their product. They did not, however, give any interesting/ new tidbits of information on GenCon (which would have been the obvious time and place). And for weeks, the dice packs are out of stock. This diminishes the value of the product line, and as a business company, they should address that - and while they cannot offer the dice, they should reassure customers. By not saying anything, they are losing customers.

So, yes, we know everything there is to know right now. But that does not mean that FFG communication is just fine, because communicating is not just telling what there is to know, but also about staying in relationship (company-customer), kindling interest etc. Put bluntly, FFG seems focused on products, not customers. But ultimately, loyal customers are worth a lot more than cool products.

I like the product. But FFG has missed the chance to make me like them. That's disappointing, because it would have been so easy.



#33 BigKahuna

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 10:54 PM

Emirikol said:

FFG is beneath the industry standard.  All other companies participate on their forums.  If they don't know or can't say somethign they say "we don't know or can't say."  THAT is the industry standard and what is known as "good" customer service.

 

The problem is that we are just little cash machines to them and they don't give a twinkle-turd about their customers on their forums. (I'm sure my eventual banning is on it's way, because I refuse to sit here an defend them for their choices, but we've put in time as fans and have written stuff for THEM for THEIR PRODUCT and they won't even say "hey, we support you guys, but we just don't have a product for you right now.").

 

They are defensless except for a couple of fans who feel the need to defend them.  Why can't they defend themselves?  Because they choose the path that allows people to think of them as uncaring, money-grubbing, giant-corporate elitists who are too good to lower themselves to communicating with their customers like "lesser" companies evidently "lower" themselves to.  Lesser companies like those indie companies such as WotC or Paizo…

 

It's really disgusting actually that they choose not to poke one single keystroke here since Jay Little left.

 

jh

~ Repeat this mantra after me:  "THEY DON'T CARE ENOUGH TO BOTHER."

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree because I don't think that's true at all.  They don't really need a defense.  They announced the products they have to announce, they have given us the information about those products that their is to give and that's all there is.  FFG has a long standing action oriented support system which is 1000% better than what you get with most companies.  I mean the industry standard your talking about is to hype, make promises and boldly lie.  FFG simply doesn't do that.  They create release schedules and for the most part stick to them.  I have been buying games from FFG for years and to date they have never once disapointed me, I can't say that about any other company out there.  The fact that some nerdy developer isn't on the forums talking to the fans everyday hardly means they are "below standards" of other companies.  They make games and release them mostly likely based on a business model that works since they are after all one of the highest rated and most successful game publishers in the world.   

I guess what I'm saying is as long as they release awsome products, I don't really care if they talk to me.



#34 BigKahuna

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 11:01 PM

asri said:

BigKahuna said:

 

 

That's the thing though, they don't have a "no communication" policy, they simply don't have a "on customer demand" communication policy, or a "reply to forum posts" policy.  We know everything their is to know right now.

 

Yes, and no. I don't expect them to reply to forum posts (though it would be nice, of course). I do expect, though, that they promote their product. They did not, however, give any interesting/ new tidbits of information on GenCon (which would have been the obvious time and place). And for weeks, the dice packs are out of stock. This diminishes the value of the product line, and as a business company, they should address that - and while they cannot offer the dice, they should reassure customers. By not saying anything, they are losing customers.

So, yes, we know everything there is to know right now. But that does not mean that FFG communication is just fine, because communicating is not just telling what there is to know, but also about staying in relationship (company-customer), kindling interest etc. Put bluntly, FFG seems focused on products, not customers. But ultimately, loyal customers are worth a lot more than cool products.

I like the product. But FFG has missed the chance to make me like them. That's disappointing, because it would have been so easy.

Some companies talk the talk, FFG walks the walk.  They make games.  So they suck at talking to us.  Who cares!  As long as they make and release awsomes game, I love them.  I don't need to have Christian T. Petersons personal cell phone number for me to feel like they are responsive to me as a fan, I need him to make great games and release them and that's what he does.



#35 Daedalum

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 11:16 PM

 Well either way, looks like the policy isn't likely to change. A

And the release pace has clearly slowed, although the epic and tew boxed sets of this year are actually two of the biggest from the line. 

I don't want to get a stress ulcer in the name of an RPG,  so, I for one am shifting to expectation cruise control. Regardless of official news I'll be focusing on LF, the spoils from Jays compo, and the lively WFRP online virtual tabletop community, and dialing down frequency of visits the FFG.

 

Say NO to stress ulcers kids!



#36 James Sparrow

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 11:20 PM

BigKahuna said:

 

Some companies talk the talk, FFG walks the walk.  They make games.  So they suck at talking to us.  Who cares!  As long as they make and release awsomes game, I love them.  I don't need to have Christian T. Petersons personal cell phone number for me to feel like they are responsive to me as a fan, I need him to make great games and release them and that's what he does.

 

Well, quite clearly a number of people do care, otherwise we wouldn't have this and several other threads. And sure, it's great that FFG makes and releases awesome games, but the point is people don't know whether or not anything more is going to be made and released specifically for WFRP3, aside from a single product.

Cheers

Sparrow



#37 reg

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 12:22 AM

 And if they don't release any more after TEW, who cares. There's a lot of really good fan material out there (look at liber fanatica!), and its the system that makes wfrp 3 so good, not the 'official' releases, some of which are a bit average to be honest. Get people committed to writing good stuff, support it with lots of feedback and let rip. Cross reference with the first and second edition stuff and we've got it made. Bring it on.



#38 James Sparrow

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 02:15 AM

reg said:

 And if they don't release any more after TEW, who cares. There's a lot of really good fan material out there (look at liber fanatica!), and its the system that makes wfrp 3 so good, not the 'official' releases, some of which are a bit average to be honest. Get people committed to writing good stuff, support it with lots of feedback and let rip. Cross reference with the first and second edition stuff and we've got it made. Bring it on.

Again with the 'who cares?' question. As I said before, some of the people posting in this and other threads quite clearly care. I'm not that fussed myself, but I do empathise with people.

As for what makes WFRP3 so good, well, for me at least, what makes it good is the same thing that made WFRP1 and WFRP2: the setting. And the fans are already producing good stuff, and have been for years, but sadly it doesn't get as much feedback as perhaps it should.

Cheers

Sparrow



#39 BigKahuna

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 02:56 AM

I can't speak for anyone else but when I say "who cares", I'm kind of saying "no one should".  Another words their is nothing to be upset about because most of what we are talking about here are sort of grey area speculation reactions to other speculations and assumptions which aren't true at all nor are they supported by anything but more speculation.  

For example "FFG doesn't care about their customer", or that "We are just cash to them".  To me, that's being pretty harsh and unrealistic, FFG shows us they care by making great games, they don't have to make a personal phone call to a disgruntle forum poster to give the appearance of "caring" about their customers and to claim that if they don't speak up that their is some sort of speculative "failure" somewhere is obsurd and kind of offensive not just to FFG and the whole development team but to the fans that support them.  Its a sort of propoganda statement that tries to dehumanize a company as if it was some sort of evil corporation out to screw the consumer.  Nothing could be further from the truth, a fact supported by 2 decades of dedication to the development of games.  These guys run a business but its a business made of people who love games and they make them for other people who love games, their is no conspiracy here nor should their be any ill will towards FFG. Bringing this kind of speculation to the forum shows a lack of appriciation for the people who work hard to bring us great games.

This "what have you done for me lately" attitude being displayed on an otherwise great forum about a great role-playing game is weak status in my book. 



#40 reg

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 10:12 AM

 Kind of agree. 'Course it would be nice if they continued to release good products for wfrp, but 'who cares' means (to me) that I'll go on playing the game regardless. Make my own scenarios, cards, maps, steal others ideas, interact with others. It's the combination of a great system and committed fans that keep this going and lots of fun. As for the harsh things being said about FFG, well that's the inernet talking; a consequence of faceless instantaneous communication - they've got broad shoulders (and to be honest are not giving much feedback!).






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