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Dark Heresy = Rogue Trader


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#21 Jephkay

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 05:06 AM

Rogue Trader should have rules for Navigators, Astropaths and Rogue Traders. It has been stated that it contains starship construction, task resolution and space combat. New xenos, conversion guides for characters and tons of new options are also likely.  Now, could this have been a separate, campaign book tacked onto the Dark Heresy "system?"  

Sure. 

But that's not how it was first presented Way Back When. 2006? 2005? Was it that long ago?  It has always been marketed as "Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay" We've had time to complain, but nothing's changed. I for one like the presentation. When we're in the middle of a big space battle, with panels eploding and red-shirted servitors dying left, right and center, I do not want to look up what someone's talent from DH does. Let me flip through RT real quick and be done with it.



#22 Kage2020

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 05:23 AM

One hopes that people can see the distinction between what people would have liked to have seen and what they feel is the more likely scenario as to what we are going to get.  My personal preference is for a core rulebook with supplements that I can add on to that, partially because that's what happens in my system of choice.  It's not happening that way, but I would have preferred it to happen that way.  (I tend to feel that you get a more solid, integral system, and a more information in the themed supplements that way.  Over the long term you end up with rules bloat [and book bloat!], but that's why you have electronic copies of your fields... Or not, in the case of Dark Heresy.)

Again, just to be clear, that is a preference of mine.  What we are likely to see is what we all know about, i.e. the release information that BI and FFG have separately mentioned.  Preference =/= reality.

Kage



#23 Bazleebub

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 06:10 AM

Just had a quick look through the Dark Heresy book and picked out the following sections that could be kept

Skills 9 Pages

Talents 10 Pages

Armoury 30 Pages

Playing the Game 34 Pages

For a total of 85 Pages out of the 395 total page count. While I would expect large sections of the above to remain the same I would also expect lots of change as Dark Heresy is the Cthulhu of 40k while I would expect Rogue Trader to be more the Traveller of 40k! New skills, different talents for the new classes, lots of new guns and weapons and a large new section on crazy stuff like the rules for crashing spaceships into moons and other such rogue trader activities.

I can understand why people would feel a book repeating material would be a poor move but personally I feel the two games should be different enough to warrant their own books and consider the compatability a bonus. Sales wise it also seems a smart move allow players who are interested in Rogue Trader but not so much in Dark Heresy's Cthulhu in space.



#24 Xathess Wolfe

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 11:25 AM

Bazleebub said:

Just had a quick look through the Dark Heresy book and picked out the following sections that could be kept

Skills 9 Pages

Talents 10 Pages

Armoury 30 Pages

Playing the Game 34 Pages

For a total of 85 Pages out of the 395 total page count. While I would expect large sections of the above to remain the same I would also expect lots of change as Dark Heresy is the Cthulhu of 40k while I would expect Rogue Trader to be more the Traveller of 40k! New skills, different talents for the new classes, lots of new guns and weapons and a large new section on crazy stuff like the rules for crashing spaceships into moons and other such rogue trader activities.

I can understand why people would feel a book repeating material would be a poor move but personally I feel the two games should be different enough to warrant their own books and consider the compatability a bonus. Sales wise it also seems a smart move allow players who are interested in Rogue Trader but not so much in Dark Heresy's Cthulhu in space.

I agree.  The CORE books should remain seperate.  Its the fluff supporting books that could be combined.  If I only want to play Deathwatch later on, I shouldn't be forced to buy the Dark heresy or Rogue Trader core books just for the 85 pages.  What I think I'm saying is that the fluff splat books should and could be combined.

I would be very upset with FFG is I spen $40 on the Rogue Trader Xenos Splatbook and got a reprint of Orcs that I got in Creatures Anathema, when one book would have sufficed.



#25 Kage2020

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 04:22 PM

If I were to put on my hopeful cap once more, I would hope that the background would be developed in more detail in additional supplements.  While people might find jumping from one book to another for rules as frustrating and a product of rules bloat, the same can be said for the 'fluff' itself.  So, erm, I'm agreeing with the last post as well, but asking for a bit more information in that the material that we were presented with in Dark Heresy was not exactly substantial, even if it was appropriately sized and themed for the product in question.

Kage



#26 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 04:39 PM

LeBlanc13 said:

Peacekeeper_b said:

 

Well at least you are modest about it.

 

 

Am I the only one that finds it funny that your name is Peacekeeper and yet here....not so much. :)

Well, its more  reference to Farscape's Peacekeepers then anything else. So, yeah, I do my job well.



#27 Jephkay

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 12:24 AM

Oh, when that Xenos book for Rogue Trader (RTX) comes out, it will be far more reaching and comprehensive.  It will have the sort of Orks encountered in space.  Flyboyz, Ork starships, Space Hulk Orks, Mekboyz, and Gretchin engineers. CA has Eldar, RTX will have more pirates, Eldar Ships, discussion of craftworlds... In other words, the material covered will expand to be of interest to those playing that type of game.

I'd put money on it.



#28 Xathess Wolfe

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 10:14 AM

Jephkay said:

Oh, when that Xenos book for Rogue Trader (RTX) comes out, it will be far more reaching and comprehensive.  It will have the sort of Orks encountered in space.  Flyboyz, Ork starships, Space Hulk Orks, Mekboyz, and Gretchin engineers. CA has Eldar, RTX will have more pirates, Eldar Ships, discussion of craftworlds... In other words, the material covered will expand to be of interest to those playing that type of game.

I'd put money on it.

Which is exactly my point.  So to play an Orc in space, they'll either reprint all the stuff from Creatures Anathema (admittedly not alot) but still its money I'm spending for items I already have, or force you to already own Dark Heresy material in order to get the lesser orcs in Creatures Anathema



#29 Kage2020

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 03:06 PM

So, book bloat with everything scattered around?

Kage



#30 Xathess Wolfe

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 04:32 PM

Kage2020 said:

So, book bloat with everything scattered around?

Kage

Well kind of yeah.  You're going to get book bloat anyway as it stands now, with each line getting their own fluff books, so Dark Heresy gets their Creatures Anathema, Rogue Trader gets their Xenos books, and Deathwatch will invariably get their own books for example.

From a personal standpoint, if I'm going to buy books, I'd prefer the books to have new material for my 40-60 US dollars and not recycled material.  At least my money is going to pay for work that consists beyond cut and paste.

Heck FFG already gets subtle ribbing about recycling the same artwork in their books, imagine if they start recycling cutting and pasting the same material over and over through three different lines of books.



#31 Robban-O

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 04:20 AM

Xathess Wolfe said:

 

 

Well kind of yeah.  You're going to get book bloat anyway as it stands now, with each line getting their own fluff books, so Dark Heresy gets their Creatures Anathema, Rogue Trader gets their Xenos books, and Deathwatch will invariably get their own books for example.

From a personal standpoint, if I'm going to buy books, I'd prefer the books to have new material for my 40-60 US dollars and not recycled material.  At least my money is going to pay for work that consists beyond cut and paste.

Heck FFG already gets subtle ribbing about recycling the same artwork in their books, imagine if they start recycling cutting and pasting the same material over and over through three different lines of books.

But we don´t know that, do we. It is just speculation. We don't know if there is going to be a special monster book supplement for RT yet and what it will contain. People at FFG are probably not total retards and know that if they start ripping their customers off people will not buy the books any more. Lets just wait at least until CA is out, see what's in it, and then we can start discussing what might appear in a upcoming supplement.



#32 Kage2020

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 12:01 PM

Sure, take the voice of reason.

At the same time, what is this forum for but to drum up speculative interest in Rogue Trader?  Even if one were not to be cynical, about the only other thing that it can do is give FFG a general "sense" of what the potential players might want to see.  In short, free kibitzing. 

Kage



#33 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 08:00 PM

Im not a big fan of the "I hopes" and "what ifs". Id rather not know the games were coming out until a month or so before their release.



#34 Luddite

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 09:45 PM

Peacekeeper_b said:

Im not a big fan of the "I hopes" and "what ifs". Id rather not know the games were coming out until a month or so before their release.

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt. 



#35 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 01:33 AM

Luddite said:

Peacekeeper_b said:

 

Im not a big fan of the "I hopes" and "what ifs". Id rather not know the games were coming out until a month or so before their release.

 

 

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt. 

Just dont like waiting.



#36 Redeucer

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 02:12 AM

I am also in the "One Rule Book to Rule Them All" mentality.  Got that from playing Savage Worlds.  I like having a basic core rules book then have settings books.  That way you have most of the crunchy bits all in one place and only the specific "genre" books for each of the settings.  So you'd have a Warhammer 40K RPG Rules book, then a Dark Heresy setting book, Rogue Trader setting book, and Death Watch setting book.  Feel free to add compendiums to each setting, I'm all for that, but this way I don't have to look through twenty books to find some basic rules information.

The problem is that it would require totally reworking everything because even in DH alone, there is information scattered through three books already.  It's the same reason I don't play the TT game - I enjoy the game, but my money is going to run out before I can buy everything I need to play the game.  Sorry, but I have a kid getting ready to start college this fall.  Between that and these economic times, I simply can't afford to chunk down $300 this year for all the pieces that will be coming out.



#37 zombieneighbours

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 03:17 AM

The problem with a 'one book to rule them all' approach for 40K is almost exactly the same as the problems faced by White Wolf in writing scion.
The difference in power level and type of story told between an inquisitorial henchman and a space wolf champion are so markedly different that creating a system that functions for both is nearly impossible, much as the difference between a hero and a god in scion.


The task of making a system that functions for the lowest henchmen and the mightiest of the imperiums heros is made harder still by the use of a percentile system.


Add to this that a 'One book' would need to include, comprehensive vehicle rules, space flight , zero and vaccum operations rules, warp navigation, capital ship combat, aerial and space dog fight rules, psychic and sorcerery rules for all levels of power and an armory containing everything from shivs to titan weaponry. In short, you would end up with a book the thickness of dark heresy, without a setting.


If someone went for that approach, we almost certainly would not have it in our hands now, and it would likely be a considerably worse product. It makes considerably more sense to focus on specific areas of interest, and produce a system, which reflects the spirit of that style of setting.
 



#38 Redeucer

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 05:43 AM

zombieneighbours said:

 

The problem with a 'one book to rule them all' approach for 40K is almost exactly the same as the problems faced by White Wolf in writing scion.
The difference in power level and type of story told between an inquisitorial henchman and a space wolf champion are so markedly different that creating a system that functions for both is nearly impossible, much as the difference between a hero and a god in scion.


The task of making a system that functions for the lowest henchmen and the mightiest of the imperiums heros is made harder still by the use of a percentile system.


Add to this that a 'One book' would need to include, comprehensive vehicle rules, space flight , zero and vaccum operations rules, warp navigation, capital ship combat, aerial and space dog fight rules, psychic and sorcerery rules for all levels of power and an armory containing everything from shivs to titan weaponry. In short, you would end up with a book the thickness of dark heresy, without a setting.


If someone went for that approach, we almost certainly would not have it in our hands now, and it would likely be a considerably worse product. It makes considerably more sense to focus on specific areas of interest, and produce a system, which reflects the spirit of that style of setting.
 

 

 

Not necessarily.  I don't need space flight and capital ship combat in a Dark Heresy campaign.  That would fall under specific rules for Rogue Trader.  What I need is a list of skills that all settings have in common - character generation; individual combat; common skills; common talents; common weapons; common body replacements; Insanity; Corruption; how to and when to use skill checks; basic background on the 40K universe; etc.  It could actually be a smaller book.  Then you have settings book focus on Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Death Watch focus - give the background of that specific setting; professions, skills, talents, traits common to the setting; specific character generation differences; powers like psionics and sorcery; etc.

In my opinion, Scion screwed things up the way they did it.  The jump in power levels between the books was just odd.  It caused problems in our group because some people wanted to move up the next power level as soon as they could so saved up all their points to do that while others were buying useful skills, etc. before moving up.  They should have made it a smooth scale instead of one that jumps in power level so drastically.  It was rough for good characters who didn't save up their points who were still at the hero level to be effective when others were already at the demi-god level and so much more effective because they got that huge bump up in characteristics and skills.  It made for an unbalanced game at the meet points between the three books.  We eventually abandoned the game because of these flaws.  That and having to roll unreasonable numbers of d10 as you go up in power.

Actually, I think in some ways percentile systems do pretty well with henchmen because you have a much wider range of skill levels to use.  You can give the common person low skills, henchmen higher skills, competitent people higher skills, and scale all the way up to a mighty hero of the Imperium having skill levls in the 80+ range in things they are extremely competitent in.  Granted, that is where I see that DH falls down though because Acolytes that should be at least somewhat compitent even at introductory levels, aren't.  Once they get a few thousand experience under their belts, they start to be at the level I think they should be at in the beginning.

Oh well.  No game system is perfect.  But as long as I enjoy the setting and the rules don't get into they way too much, then I'll play it.  And while I see problems with the DH rules, they usually don't get in the way except at the early levels and so as long as the GM handles the new acolytes with kit gloves, they can survive long enough to become competitent enough to make the game enjoyable and get emmersed in the system.



#39 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 02:18 AM

Agreed. In a core system rulebook you would need to cover enough basics for players to be able to play any style of 40K they want with only that book.

You would need to cover at least the following: Character Generation, Xenos PCs/Abhuman PCs/Space Marine PCs, Mutations, Combat, Skills, basic careers (see below), interaction/investigation/influence, talents, equipment, basic vehicle/spaceship rules, sample encounter stats, starting adventure (shorter then Illumination).

You would also need a section on "the 40K universe overview", how to GM, how to play, setting and playing guidelines.

As far as careers go, you would need to cover the basics: Combat Monster, Skill Master, Power User, Free Jack.

Overall this would be an ideal 250 page book that comes out after Deathwatch and builds upon all 3 games.

Then you can have mini-settings come out afterwards. The Imperial Guard Wars, Gangs of the Underhive, Xenos and so forth. Each at about 150 pages. 



#40 Omnicrazzy

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 05:46 PM

If you need something to have everything in common you'd have to make up a lot of your own rules and stats and stuff. I imediatly think of GURPS, but then you aren't using most of the Dark Heresy book are you? And you would be doing conversions for what you did use.

I hope that they find a way to make character conversions and accessability posible between the titles, but dont think that limiting rogue traders to starting out with the same stats as an acolyte would be unfair. And a space marines? Even putting them on the same scale is mildly insulting (although I do wish there were rules for that and higher end PCs, for example with level 1 space marine initiates starting at the 8000 xp level and with many stat modifications manditory (such as +20 to strength?))

But that also brings monetary inconsistancy. Take for example a rogue trader... owns a ship? does every PC own a ship? maybe not... but likely that one of them will... convert him to Dark Heresy, and even a starting RT could metagame by peddling his ship for even a 1/10 of it's value and buy the best of everything. Possibly making high end equipment such as space marine armor (and terminator armor!) use XP to earn from the chapter would help, but not negate, the monetary aspects.






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