Jump to content



Photo

Why I am not playing this game…


  • Please log in to reply
47 replies to this topic

#21 SiCK_Boy

SiCK_Boy

    Member

  • Members
  • 298 posts

Posted 12 September 2012 - 04:47 AM

One reason why tournament support will never be as large as in Magic is because of the nature of a LCG.

CCG require perpetual purchases of products. Tournaments (especially the standard format) encourage this behavior in the customers (limited formats being the extreme example).

With a LCG, once you've bought 1 (or 3) Core Sets, the company is done with you. They can't expect additional income from you (until expansions start being published).

The duration of the relationship between the customer and the company isn't as great.

Also, from the FLGS's perspective, the lack of market for single cards make it less interesting to hold these events. When a store holds a Magic tournament, they can expect to sell last minute singles to players missing a card or two to tune their decks. With an LCG, what's the store's return on investment? They'll sell a couple soda and sandwiches during the day, at most…



#22 Penfold

Penfold

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,180 posts

Posted 12 September 2012 - 04:58 AM

kaffis said:

Magic didn't become a tournament staple that has endured for nearly two decades now by accident. It didn't spontaneously develop that tournament scene. It was deliberately and craftily planned to incentivize local stores to run tournaments, and leverage that exposure to boost sales and popularity. And it wasn't the FLGSes that came up with that plan.

Erm, that is blatantly untrue. There were local tournaments and play nights for well over a year before WotC got involved with local support. I was playing since the beta release and did so for years before the expense became unjustifiable. WotC codified what a number of local store owners had been doing. This is FAR smarter and MUCH better business than just trying to create a program and hope people will like it. They actually studied what programs were successful and blended them together and made it very easy for stores to join the program.

If A:N gets to that same kind of place where numerous stores are running regular play programs FFG will likely support their efforts and commoditize it for others.



#23 qwertyuiop

qwertyuiop

    Member

  • Members
  • 815 posts

Posted 23 November 2012 - 08:05 AM

the1gwiz said:

So if I'm reading the OP right…

 

"Someone organize my playgroup, I don't want to.  Oh, and someone else read for me."

I'm going to have to insist you post all your comments on the first line. I can't be bothered to shift my gaze downward.

All jabs at the OP's apparent sloth aside, he makes a good point. There is no viable sanctioned tournament scene for LCGs in the US. Regional, con, and backyard MN events do not qualify as a tournament scene. Sorry, but they don't. Game night kits are cool, I guess, but they seem more like a "thank you" that the store operator can provide to people whose money he already has instead of a way to excite new players. He's not going to sell any more LCG product to a player who already has it. Magic, on the other hand will always sell more product, even in league play. But back to the OP's laziness…. a scene has to start somewhere. If it's up to the players to organize their own tournaments, then so be it. There are literally dozens of people on various boards on this site alone willing to come up with ideas for hosting tournaments. Or there's google.


P.S. A more legitimate reason to not get involved in this game is the pretentious labeling of decks, hands, and discard piles. I guess there is such a thing as too much theme(for me, that is).


P.P.S. My postscript is still a lame reason not to play the game.


P.P.P.S. NBN forever.



#24 LMTRK

LMTRK

    Member

  • Members
  • 16 posts

Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:01 AM

SiCK_Boy said:

Also, from the FLGS's perspective, the lack of market for single cards make it less interesting to hold these events. When a store holds a Magic tournament, they can expect to sell last minute singles to players missing a card or two to tune their decks. With an LCG, what's the store's return on investment? They'll sell a couple soda and sandwiches during the day, at most…

How about all the new players that buy a copy (or three) of the game because they want to enter the tournament with their friends, or because they see the players in the tournament having so much fun that they want to join in the next one?

Plus the expansions are going to start coming out eventually, giving players more things to buy. :)

On a personal note, "Why I am not playing this game…" is because I am STILL waiting for the copy that I pre-ordered to arrive. The store I am trying to buy it from hasnt received ANY copies from their distributor. This makes me a sad sad panda. :(

~ Tim



#25 Rince

Rince

    Member

  • Members
  • 146 posts

Posted 24 November 2012 - 07:35 PM

 "…Also, from the FLGS's perspective, the lack of market for single cards make it less interesting to hold these events. When a store holds a Magic tournament, they can expect to sell last minute singles to players missing a card or two to tune their decks. With an LCG, what's the store's return on investment? They'll sell a couple soda and sandwiches during the day, at most…"

The market for single cards also make setting prizes quite easy, which, in return, allows the game to enjoy a continuous flow of small organized events on a local level. Take my area for instance. Even though I live in a small town, we have 2 or 3 Magic events every week, which is a lot in my opinion! Yet, not one event has ever suffered from lack of interest. I see two reasons for this.

1. When a store organizes an event, all they need to do is open a few booster packs and allow the winners to chose from it in the order of their ranking, taking turns. So, the winner gets first crack at the card pool, and then the one who finished second, third, and so on. When everyone picked a card, they start over until all cards are gone. With only 4 or 5 boosters, chances are that the winners will walk away with at least 1 or 2 rare and costly cards, making their whole participation worthwhile. But even if they don't get any expensive cards, the promise of a better draw the next time, brings players back week after week. From the stores' perspective, this format is also advantageous. They charge a very small entry fee (just to cover the prize boosters), and in return, they get a constant buzz in their store, selling a crapload of booster packs and singles to the crowd.

2. The other reason why it is quite easy to get people interested in organized events, in Magic for instance, is the worldwide ranking system. When a Magic player participates in a legal event, however small it is, he or she gets points and can immediately compare that score to all other players in the world. This leader board brings out the competitive side of most players, encouraging them to compete week after week.

While the above reasons seem to be quite specific to CCGs, I see no reason to think they could not, at least partially, be applied to Android: Netrunner. Although CCGs have the advantage of rare cards as prizes, they are essentially prize money! Most players who compete on a weekly basis have an extensive card pool. They do not compete to win new cards for themselves but to score expensive cards that they can sell for profit! By that logic, if FFG could supply prices at least on a bi-monthly basis, it could give players enough reason to compete weekly, giving a huge boost to the Android player scene. Giving the format of LCGs, however, these prizes should not to be card-related; so, the current playmat, token, etc prizes are a good start. Although, I can see rare, promotional cards to make their way into LCGs as well. Obviously FFG cannot introduce new cards just for tournaments, but they can release alternate versions of already existing cards, such as versions with new artwork or ones signed by the autor, etc.

The most crucial thing, however, I think would be a worldwide ranking database. Such a system would be a huge boost for the competitive scene and is certainly not limited to CCGs. With small to moderate investment, FFG can build a system that track players around the world, using a unique ID. This would also give the World Championship a whole new meaning, as only those players could compete in it whose ranking is high enough.

Anyways, I see no reason why Android could not become the next prominent card game out there. It just needs a little investment: a flow of cool prices and a worldwide ranking system, but it could really pick up! Plus, Android has a tremendous advantage over its competitiors: it is very unique and TREMENDOUS FUN TO PLAY! :)



#26 Malgamus

Malgamus

    Member

  • Members
  • 69 posts

Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:48 PM

FFG already stated in a video from Worlds that future Game Night Kit content would be more "game focused" as in things you can actually use to play the game with rather than trophy items. Also, they said alternate art cards are on the list of potential future prizes.

From an OP perspective, I can see doing tournaments for each Data Pack release where the top player(s) can win the new pack as the prize. I think that and the Game Night Kits are an okay start for local OP. In between them, meeting up  to test your newest builds on a weekly basis isn't so bad. Now I just need several other people to buy a core set so I can get a local group going.



#27 Surreal

Surreal

    Member

  • Members
  • 143 posts

Posted 25 November 2012 - 02:49 AM

Rince said:

 

 

Anyways, I see no reason why Android could not become the next prominent card game out there. It just needs a little investment: a flow of cool prices and a worldwide ranking system, but it could really pick up! 

 

 

Amazing post and I agree with all points. FFG has been bit lacking with organized play and CCGs with my experience really need a solid organized play to survive for a longer time. Otherwise game might live for couple years and start dying after that. I feel it is same thing with LCGs. FFG has a huge potential with organized play and I hope they start to using it more until the game starts going down (I feel AGoT is in this turning point now). This topic is one of the most important in these boards.

EDIT: MTG is not hugely popular in here Finland but there a lot of organized play which really keeps it alive and well known.



#28 somnambulant

somnambulant

    Member

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:13 AM

 Another way for a store or other tournament organizer to deal with prizes could be to open a Core Set, and have the top prizes be the cards that people buy to fill out their sets. The neutral cards and other cards that often get splashed into other decks would be useful too. Heck even the chits would be okay prizes for people who play with multiple decks.

Hell it'd be great if FFG sent out packs of the cards to fill out the set.  I know it's not going to be necessary in the long run, and I'm not going to buy a second Core just to get them, but as prizes… I'd be all right with that.

 



#29 Khudzlin

Khudzlin

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,409 posts

Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:09 PM

From what I've gathered, FFG (and the various retailers who deal with translations) aren't the ones who make the AGoT tournament scene live. Certainly not at the local level. Also, the biggest tournament each year is not the *cough* World *cough* Championship held in the States (54 players in the Melee, 81 in the Joust), but the European Championship held in Stahleck (66 players in the Melee, 130 in the Joust) - that's right, folks, Stahleck has more than half again the players (though the Melee would probably be smaller if there wasn't a card to design). From what I know, the TO for Stahleck is not affiliated in any way with FFG and FFG had no hand in the organization,

So yeah, it's very much up to the players to organize the tournament scene.



#30 Astro Mike

Astro Mike

    Member

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:51 PM

Khudzlin said:

So yeah, it's very much up to the players to organize the tournament scene.

On the local level it is partly true, and it is actually the same with every other card game out there. Yet, when you look at Magic or WoW and how much buzz those card games generate as opposed to LCGs, you realize that the difference is staggering. And what is responsible for this difference, is the amount of support and infrastructure the mother company provides for event organizers. So saying that organization depends solely on the gamer community might apply to some local groups but certainly not to the community as a whole.

In my opinion, part of the publisher's responsibility is to to provide motivation for local playgroups to organize events. Once that is taken care of, everything else pretty much happens on its own.



#31 Vaslov

Vaslov

    Member

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:37 AM

Sorry if this is somewhat aside from the main thread.

I played the original Netrunner CCG 13 or 14 years ago with my teenage son. We also played other CCG's ranging from StarTrek:TNG to Battletech to Shadowrun to INWO (we never played M:TG, and that was before Yu-Gi-Oh arrived on the scene). We thought Netrunner was one of the best, in particular because it's a 2-player game. We amassed hundreds of Netrunner cards. We were disappointed when it was discontinued. We never played in any tournaments… we live in a small city in central California with very few "face to face" card or board gamers.

Anyhow -- to the point >> Since Netrunner is strictly a 2-player game, all you have to do is find one friend in your town who likes complex games, and "teach" it patiently. Or you might search the net for someone in your town who played the original legacy version.

A few days ago I was able to purchase the new "Android:Netrunner" while visiting San Diego, CA. All of the first publication had sold out at that store (Game Empire). I will bring it back home, and try it again. It will be fun to see if the old Netrunner cards can be combined with the new version -- although it will be obvious to the opponent if you add any of the old "legacy" cards in your deck!!

That is why I say: "Why I will play this game…!"



#32 Malgamus

Malgamus

    Member

  • Members
  • 69 posts

Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:54 AM

 I don't think it will be a good idea to mix in old cards. FFG is redoing some of them already and it would break the balance they have created with factions. There is also the fact that some rules have been changed.



#33 Surreal

Surreal

    Member

  • Members
  • 143 posts

Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:06 AM

Khudzlin said:

 

So yeah, it's very much up to the players to organize the tournament scene.

 

 

I am not expecting FFG to host tournament scene but organizing things to help the tournaments scene. This includes worldwide rankings and tournament price support like alternative art cards, promos etc. FFG just needs to organize the bigger events, maybe we will even see tournament which can be called World Championships sometime.

I am most interested what the tournament price support could be and how stores could benefit financially from LCG tournaments also. I would be interested to try host some tournaments if I wouldn't have to invent the whole concept myself (like prices, format, rankings etc).Some leagues would be great also. Releasing one pack per month keeps the buzz and interest so there is good chance to do tournaments once per month for the price of the new pack + some euros to cover other prices. The monthly release system really gives potential for more events.

EDIT Maybe the topic should be Organized play of Netrunner.



#34 Toqtamish

Toqtamish

    Toqtamish

  • Members
  • 3,175 posts

Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:27 AM

Surreal said:

I am not expecting FFG to host tournament scene but organizing things to help the tournaments scene. This includes worldwide rankings and tournament prize support like alternative art cards, promos etc. FFG just needs to organize the bigger events, maybe we will even see tournament which can be called World Championships sometime.

 

As has been pointed out a few times this has already been stated as stuff that is in the works by FFG.

"The kits will now be more game focused, rather than item focused, much like the new Netrunner and X-Wing OP Kits. They want to put out things that you can actually use during a game.

Game Night Kits will now include a Tournament Organizer Prize, though it wasn't confirmed if it would be in the upcoming Netrunner or X-Wing Packs.

Game Night Kits will eventually include alternate art promotional cards that are reprints of existing cards with new/different/better art. The exception to this is Star Wars, which will receive Aurebesh texted cards. For those that don't know, Aurebesh is the name of the font that the signs and written communication of the Star Wars universe is. These cards will have the title and flavor text replaced with Aurebesh translations.

It was emphasized that there will be no competitive advantage from having the alternate-art cards, aside from having extra copies of the alternate art cards.

FFG is looking into bringing back two popular programs: a Tournament Organizer program and a Player Ranking System. Both programs are in their infancy, and are not yet developed. They were very intent on letting us know that they are being looked at. "

www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/index.html/_/articles/ffg-organized-play-news-r367



#35 Doc9

Doc9

    Member

  • Members
  • 454 posts

Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:57 AM

 That's great news. I just won our local local Warhammer: Invasion league and would love to have received alternate art cards. I got the playmat and patch and a pin, so that was cool. But Alternate cards would be really cool. Can't wait.



#36 LMTRK

LMTRK

    Member

  • Members
  • 16 posts

Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:13 AM

Vaslov said:

 It will be fun to see if the old Netrunner cards can be combined with the new version -- although it will be obvious to the opponent if you add any of the old "legacy" cards in your deck!!

You can use card sleeves to hide the backs. ;)

(I would suggest you use sleeves anyway, to preserve your cards - I wish I had sleeved my original Netrunner cards all those years ago…)

~ Tim



#37 Khudzlin

Khudzlin

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,409 posts

Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:01 PM

Astro Mike said:

 

On the local level it is partly true, and it is actually the same with every other card game out there. Yet, when you look at Magic or WoW and how much buzz those card games generate as opposed to LCGs, you realize that the difference is staggering. And what is responsible for this difference, is the amount of support and infrastructure the mother company provides for event organizers. So saying that organization depends solely on the gamer community might apply to some local groups but certainly not to the community as a whole.

In my opinion, part of the publisher's responsibility is to to provide motivation for local playgroups to organize events. Once that is taken care of, everything else pretty much happens on its own.

This is how I see things are currently, not how I think they should be. I just have the impression FFG is not supporting its games' tournament scene as much as Wizards or AEG. But I would love to have to change that opinion,



#38 Toqtamish

Toqtamish

    Toqtamish

  • Members
  • 3,175 posts

Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:19 AM

Khudzlin said:

 

This is how I see things are currently, not how I think they should be. I just have the impression FFG is not supporting its games' tournament scene as much as Wizards or AEG. But I would love to have to change that opinion,

 

 

 

Keep in mind that Cryptozoic, WotC and AEG all make a significant larger amount of money off of their TCGs. LCGs are not quite the cash cow that traditional TCGs end up being in light of their random card distribution thus forcing people to buy multiple products in order to get their cards they "need" for their decks. I'm already planning out a tournament for Android: Netrunner using the tournament kit I ordered that arrived last week. The kit is very similar to the kits Cryptozoic sends out for World of Warcraft TCG.



#39 Surreal

Surreal

    Member

  • Members
  • 143 posts

Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:19 AM

Toqtamish said:

 

Khudzlin said:

 

This is how I see things are currently, not how I think they should be. I just have the impression FFG is not supporting its games' tournament scene as much as Wizards or AEG. But I would love to have to change that opinion,

 

 

 

Keep in mind that Cryptozoic, WotC and AEG all make a significant larger amount of money off of their TCGs. LCGs are not quite the cash cow that traditional TCGs end up being in light of their random card distribution thus forcing people to buy multiple products in order to get their cards they "need" for their decks. I'm already planning out a tournament for Android: Netrunner using the tournament kit I ordered that arrived last week. The kit is very similar to the kits Cryptozoic sends out for World of Warcraft TCG.

 

 

Do you have some data to pack this up? This kind of argument is often used:t "random card distribution thus forcing people to buy multiple products in order to get their cards they "need" for their decks." Still I haven't met a single serious MTG player who does this (or maybe some boosters to get playsets of commons/uncommons). Everybody just buys singles. Buying random cards to get specific cards is not very wise whne there is a single market. It is amazind drafting format which really saves MTG. I don't think it is even very cheap to build tournament AGoT decks. First tournament winning AGoT deck I found used cards from over 14 different expansions (and multiple core sets). That is huge investment for a game practically without singles market.

My point is more that CCG/LCG are both big cash cows and it can only be debated which packing system someones likes more. Both have their positive sides and negative sides. But I don't think it can be compared which nets more money or which is a bigger cash cow. LCGs might bit better to hide this image for some thought.



#40 dwbailey

dwbailey

    Member

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:38 AM

I want to start by saying that I manage a game store. My store is in a major metropolitan market in the US and we are packed every night for different events and games. I have seen games come and go, player communities grow, die, and then regrow again. I can guarantee that the play kits from any manufacturer or the prize support from the manufacturer do not dictate the growth of the game or the size of the community. The key to growing a game is simple. Have people play it in the store….on game nights, on their days off, whenever they can. Have fun and outgoing people playing it and having a good time. Simple. I just bought netrunner myself because we have a group of people playing it in my store…they are very nice and seem to have a great time. I have access to pretty much any game out there. I bought this one because people were playing it. As evidence to my point, we used to have a very active L5R community. Several of the players moved away, some had children, some just stopped playing. I still received tons of prize support, promo cards, and other give aways from AEG (the manufacturer) but the game almost completely died in my store because people weren't playing it and there was no community. I had a new guy move to the area who loved the game, said he would demo the game as much as possible and built a community just by being in the store playing games and having fun. Today when i left we had 6 people sitting and playing at 6pm on a random monday with no store event scheduled just because people stopped by to see if anyone was there playing. If you want Netrunner to be successful in your local game store you have to do two things…play games and have fun…people will ask what you are doing, can they watch, what do you need to play? I know this sounds a little like "if you build it they will come" but i have seen it time and time again. And as for prize support, there are tons of ways that a FLGS can have tournaments and offer great prize support with nothing from the manufacturer and without hurting profits for the store. I definitely understand the original posters frustration with wanting to play a new game that has not built a community…but the answer is not to blame fantasy flight for not offering enough support (though i do wish they would get the game kits and standard sleeves back in stock). It is simply to grab a friend and go down to the store and play the game. Have fun. And even if you play 3 games and not a single person buys a copy, you've had fun playing playing 3 games of Netrunner. Much worse things out there.




© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS