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#41 Dezmond

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 03:01 AM

+++++What do you mean when you write, 'hated'? Call of Cthulhu is considered one of the greatest RPGs ever. It is still selling today after years of being in print.+++++

Because as soon as the hated CoC is invoked people start going on about how great it is to play Stanley the one legged retard, and we get things like DH that need major reworking to have a functional combat system or allow play of 40k icons. Most of the problems with DH can be traced to trying to be to much like a mythical CoC experience than a 40k experience.

If we accept that people want to play Cool characters, and like to kill things, we will be far better off. Instead of patching in mook rules or wondering how to make more powerful characters without having a laundry list of traits, the system could have been built to cope from the start.



#42 Bazleebub

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 04:08 AM

Dezmond said:

That is the big flaw. Is there anything at this point that can be done to fix it? I think it needs to be done as soon as possible before, like 40k itself, it hardens in to an unmovable baggage that no one can change because it is so ingrained.

It is just gonna be so hard to be proper heric with a 50% chance of looking like a doofus.

 

Interesting you should be critical of the low level side of the system, personally I had more trouble with the higher level where the combination of high evasion (Dodge/Parry) and armour meant that generating a reasonble threat was quite difficult.

For the most part I had little issue with the percental system, there is nothing wrong with a hero only having a 50% chance to do something difficult, if you are making the players check everything little thing yeah its gonna ruin the mood. If as a GM you feel a task is easier than the 50% the players have thats where the modifiers comes into it.

As I said I did have problem with the high evasion and armour. High Evasion made certain players almost impossible to kill expecially when doubled with the chance to hit by the hostile in the first place. When you do eventually hit, armour and toughness take the bite out of the damage and the daily spend of fate points make healing up at high levels trivial.

As a GM it makes me want to have hostiles who hit almost 100% and do high damage to overcome toughness and armour. Of course not everyone in the party is blessed with massive avoidance and soak and when they get targetted bad things happen. Similary the defensive evasion and soak of the hostiles needs to be enough to make it non trivial for the multi-attack reroll miss ignore armour high damage characters but unfortunately at the same time makes it basically impossible for the non-maxed players.

 



#43 Dezmond

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 04:18 AM

Well, DnD 4e removed armour that subtracts from damage for just this reason - it makes it difficult to hit the sweet spot where low level threats do a little damge but high level threats don't one-shot everything. (The Space Marine from PtU is a good example - most things can't hurt him, but anything that does has a good chance of killing him outright. So you get a binary state of Fine or Dead, which makes it difficult to know when to withdraw.)

 So it might be better to move to a more traditional hit point system whereby toughness is indicated by lots of hit points, instead of increased damage resistance/evasion.

(It is also worth noting that the 50% thing is really critical outside combat - when you want to climb something or jump bettween rooftops and you know you have only a 50/50 chance of doing it really puts a damper on things. The GM CAN say that a miss isn't a disaster, but IME they often don't.)

--

Actually, for retooling for heavy combat, I was wondering if you could get a talent that means the avoiding death element of fate points becomes a Spend rather than a Burn. So you get it back when your points refresh. So when your character finally fails his dodge roll and is one-shotted by a lascannon, he effectively only drops out of this one fight (so long as he has a point left)



#44 Pneumonica

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 08:41 AM

Simply put, the game is about becoming the Icon, not being it from day one.  Once your character hits the high notes (upper ranks, Ascension-level, etc.), your character will be an icon, and will also have the depth and breadth of history that such icons are supposed to have, not an "ex-nihilo" of a one-page background and stats purchased all at once.  I rather hope Rogue Trader is something like that.  The climb to the top is an extremely entertaining ride - that's why superhero movies frequently focus on the origin story of the heroes.



#45 RedMike

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 09:28 AM

Quite.  And the PCs have as much chance of falling from grace and becoming super villains as well, in both 40K role-play settings thus far.  You have the increasingly more powerful element often countered by the weakening sanity and / or radicalism in DH, and the temptation to engage in xenos tech heresy or worse in Rogue Trader.

The business of seeing your character develop from humble roots, with all the fallability that comes with it is one of the attractive elements of role-play to me.  If it's all too easy from the start, then the threats have to be commensurate with that, to give players a sense of challenge or engagement.  The 40K universe is vast in scope, and the PCs should very rightly be made to seem very small against that background, even if they become heroes.  The whole idea of trying to stem the tide of enemies to the Imperium is like a metaphorical Canute trying to order back the tide, and it's this, conceptually (as well as the D10 system!) that keeps it similar in theme to CoC - a much loved system amongst those I know - with an impressive catalogue of finely reaearched scenarios I might add - that I think draws so many players in.

For many, 40K role-play was the best thing ever to have happened to gaming a few years ago - so eagerly awaited - you have to either love the setting or move back into RPs that suit your style of play more closely.



#46 Kage2020

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 10:49 AM

RedMike said:

For many, 40K role-play was the best thing ever to have happened to gaming a few years ago - so eagerly awaited - you have to either love the setting or move back into RPs that suit your style of play more closely.

I think that it should also be remembered that "40k RP" is something that has been largely co-opted by the Dark Heresy etc. 40k RPG franchise.  "40k RPG" is not something that inherently means Dark Heresy, or Rogue Trader, or whatever.  To many it means merely roleplaying in the 40k universe, and in that regard Dark Heresy et al. are merely the newest kids on the block, as it were.  Just because they have a GW stamp on them does not preclude other explorations of the setting.  

In that regard, at least, the suggestion that if you don't like the officially endorsed "40k RPG" you should "move back into RPs that suit your style of play more closely" is something that can be taken in the wrong fashion.  Indeed, Dave Allen suggested something similar, in that if you didn't want to accept the interpretation of 40k that they were presenting then surely you're not playing 40k?  This is, of course, problematic in a universe that is defined only by its imagery, with how one arrays the imagery and the background leading almost exclusively (probably entirely exclusively) towards idiosyncratic interpretation.  That is, Kage-verse, or Phil-verse, or Hellbore-verse, or whatever.

So, I would change the above sentence.  "You have to either love the setting as portrayed in Dark Heresy or realise why, and shape your own 40k RP experience into something that suits your style of play and your own interpretation of the 40k universe."

Kage



#47 Xathess Wolfe

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 10:59 AM

Dezmond said:

If we accept that people want to play Cool characters, and like to kill things, we will be far better off. Instead of patching in mook rules or wondering how to make more powerful characters without having a laundry list of traits, the system could have been built to cope from the start.

I'm going to try and contain my scorn for this entire line of thought, but its going to be hard, so forgive me in advance.

But I'm going to concentrate on this line, since your other rubbish is a worthless piece of insulting tripe.

Actually people don't want to play cool characters and like to kill things, YOU like to play cool characters and kill things.  There are plenty of people who hate Rifts, Exalted and Scion simply because its too over the top gonzo.  If everyone liked to play COOL kill things people, then AD&D would simply start at 20th level and work from there, and yet it doesn't.  Call of Cthuhlu wouldn't be one of the top selling games of all times.

Just because you, in your little world, prefer the trench coat wearing, katana wielding Half-vampire, Half-werewolf, half-mage destroyer of worlds, not every player does.

Players like conflict, and conflict does not equal killing things and taking their stuff.  Conflict also includes social conflict, which most mature gamers like.

And the funny thing is that you fail to realize is that in your mind you want to play a Space Marine to see how high you can get your kill count, while failing to realize that the creatures as a Space Marine you should be facing off against aren't going to give you that kill count.  Yet, you'll play a Space Marine game where you take on teir 1 scum, and fail to ever meaningfully take on a platoon of your equals, a Chaos Marine, simply because that won't give you the kill count you desire.

Most gamers like a challenge when they game.  If I want a kill count I'll go play Halo and Gears of War on easy mode and watch the numbers tally up.  I prefer a challenge, and I don't simply want another Warhammer 40k game that acts like a tabletop game.  This is an RPG, and in RPGs social conflict is as important, if not more so in certain games, then physical conflict

Once you understand that you're in a minority for wanting high kill counts, low chance of death you'll understand why you're constantly being derided.



#48 Xathess Wolfe

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 11:13 AM

Dezmond said:

Actually, for retooling for heavy combat, I was wondering if you could get a talent that means the avoiding death element of fate points becomes a Spend rather than a Burn. So you get it back when your points refresh. So when your character finally fails his dodge roll and is one-shotted by a lascannon, he effectively only drops out of this one fight (so long as he has a point left)

This is all well and good if your a Space Marine facing a cilivian model lasrifle, but not so good if you're a Space Marine facing a Chaos Marine issue las cannon.  Truth be told, if you're facing a civilian model lasrifle the your hitpoints are probably a better judge of your ability to shrug off damage, since technically your being hit by it, but just not being effected by it.  You poor enough lasrifle fire into a spacemarine, his regen isn't going to save him.

Facing a Chaos Marine however, they use weapons designed to kill heavy targets, like your vaunted Space Marine, and when it hits its going to HURT.

And since you can already spend Fate Points (not burn them spend them) to regain hit points, and according to the rules you can do this non-stop, it still reflects the ability for your Space Marine to shrug off damage that would kill a normal human, and yet still forcing them to burn a fate point when they get burned down by a Chaos Marines lascannon.

But again, you are thinking in terms of high powerlevel vs low powerlevel, when you should be thinking in terms of equal powerlevel vs equal powerlevel, in which case your chances stay about the same.  Sure your "skill" to his may be at +40, but when you're getting a -40 do to difficulty it washes out as much as someone with a skill at +0 but getting no penelty due to difficulty.

You want to play a stronger character that's your perogative, but then you should be facing stronger foes.  Exalted Solars didn't die because they fought mortals, they died because they fought their equals and LOTS of mortals. 



#49 theDevilofWormwood

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 11:14 AM

At the end of the day one person's "cool" is another person's "silly", and vice versa.  I appreciate that FFG at least appears to be listening to the fan base, and putting out books like "Ascension", which allow for high-powered game play, without fundamentally altering the game and stepping on the toes of the folks that like the low-powered scene.  Personally, I like the range.  I love playing gritty, investigative, sci-fi film noir types, but I'm also looking forward to kicking some ass as a Space Marine when Deathwatch comes out!  So pretty much whatever they publish, I'm happy.

Xathess Wolfe said:

Just because you, in your little world, prefer the trench coat wearing, katana wielding Half-vampire, Half-werewolf, half-mage destroyer of worlds, not every player does.

I am so turning this description into an Arch-Heretic villian NPC

 



#50 Bazleebub

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 11:15 AM

Xathess Wolfe said:

I'm going to try and contain my scorn for this entire line of thought, but its going to be hard, so forgive me in advance.

But I'm going to concentrate on this line, since your other rubbish is a worthless piece of insulting tripe.

What a nasty post... Especially considering your argument basically boils down to "You don't know what people want, I know what people want".

Can you at least accept the idea that the system should be able to cope with multiple power levels of play?



#51 Pneumonica

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 11:25 AM

Peacekeeper_b said:

 

Have any of you ever been in a real firefight? Most Soldiers I know will hit a stationary target on a firing range with just about every shot (0ver 90%) of the time. From the prone position, not rushed, at a stationary fixed target with time to aim, sounds like a +60 modifier to me. But once a real fire fight starts their accuracy suffers as the enemy is moving, concealed, behind cover, firing back and not letting them fire unrushed or with aim.

 

 

Agreement in general with what you said (sorry for the late reply, but somehow I just noticed this post despite having read past it several times).  The fact that you can get up to a +60 modifier means your character with the base value of 30 has a fairly sizable chance of succeeding at everyday tasks, and that you might want to just not bother rolling.

As for firefights, I've studied some of the FBI data on the matter.  I won't say why, but let's just point out that I'm not answering the question of whether or not I've been in the crossfire of two rival gangs, although I will say that you never, ever go to the Fifth Ward in Houston if you can avoid it.  Most firefights occur at ranges of 21 or fewer feet, and half of those at ranges of 8 feet or less.  Over half of all gunfights occur in inclement conditions (what's referred to as "average battle conditions") - panic, panting for breath, snapfire while yourself receiving fire, etc.  The remainder are shots at an unsuspecting target from ambush, which may or may not lead to return fire, or are exchanges of fire between experienced combatants.  Hits are astonishingly rare - to say that the average person hits 15% of the time in these conditions would actually be an overstatement, but for game purposes works out okay.

Also, most of the time when a hit does occur, the person is usually dining on pavement immediately, from trauma, shock, pain, and bloodloss. Any part of a person hit by a .45 will almost certainly be reduced to paste.

Looking at the military data, in a real combat situation the average soldier is going to hit with considerably less than 30% of their shots, but part of the reason for this is that many times bullets are let loose for reasons other than killing the enemy (area denial tactics, shooting at possible targets, etc.).  Of those shots that are fired at actual known targets, a trained soldier is looking at about one in five shots hitting if they're receiving fire (and thus hiding behind cover), in poor lighting conditions, fatigued, etc.  Only in optimal occurrances (which includes not trying to preserve his/her own life) will a soldier achieve better than 30% accuracy.  Indeed, the "three round burst" is intended to increase the chances of hitting with a single shot, not to put more than one bullet in a target.

All told, I rather like the combat system in the game.  It's trecherous and it rewards the deceitful.  For people looking for grimdark, it really is ace.



#52 Xathess Wolfe

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 12:03 PM

Bazleebub said:

Can you at least accept the idea that the system should be able to cope with multiple power levels of play?

My dander was raised with his one-legged retard crap, and decended from there into spite and vile from his generalization of the players all wanting to be like his playstyle and be cool and kill things.

There are plenty of people who come here, who don't like Dark Heresy, and yet post  contructive and worthwhile posts that can be discussed.

Then this is the tripe he put out that wasn't even just insulting, but pure idiocy.

I find it amusing that my post is nasty, but you have no problem with him discussing one-legged retards as anyone who is incompetant.  Makes me wonder.



#53 Dezmond

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 12:06 PM

Pneumonica said:

It's trecherous and it rewards the deceitful.

 

I remain unconvinced that this is ideal for a setting where camoflage and helmets are optional and chainsaw swords standard issue equipment.

You need to realise you are working in comicbook land, with all that that entails.

The question then is how to make it so characters can live up to their fluff text:-

+++++You can take on the role of an Arch-militant, a veteran of hundreds of battles. You might be a bounty hunter, a soldier, or a bodyguard—no matter how you were trained, you are a puissant and relentless predator who knows few equals with your chosen tools of war. You hone the art of destruction to a keen edge, and have survived long enough to earn your title amongst the cold and uncaring void between stars.

 Perhaps you are seeking a challenge to your warrior skills, or tracking criminals fleeing Imperial justice. Perhaps you find fulfilment in destroying the ancient enemies of Man: aliens, daemons…and worse. Whatever your cause, an Arch-militant provides the muscle and the battle-honed instincts necessary for survival beyond the Imperium’s borders, for the void eagerly devours the naive and the incautious.+++++

I don't think players are going to be too happy when their veteran of hundreds of battles gets punked in the first battle of the campaign by some ****** with an autogun. Do you?



#54 Xathess Wolfe

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 12:22 PM

Dezmond said:

 

I don't think players are going to be too happy when their veteran of hundreds of battles gets punked in the first battle of the campaign by some ****** with an autogun. Do you?

 

 

No but if you're playing an Arch-militant against some ******, then  that is where the minion rules come into play.  Its one of the reasons no one is saying that the minion rules are bad... if for some reason you HAVE to fight a ****** with an autogun as an Arch-militant then yes, minion rules should and do come into play.

That said, I do expect a challenge though is my Arch-militant comes up against an Orc with a choppa and not a simple "Yawn I draw my sword, don't even bother rolling the dice I auto-go first with my super reflexes, and auto-hit because of my high skill, and will auto-crit due to my high strength."

Same with a Space Marine.  I figure Minion rules come in for facing that same Orc, but expect to have to fight it out, complete with misses against a Chaos Space Marine.

Even having Minion rules is already comic book land, when 20 year Marine Vets wearing body armor are being shot and killed by some 16 year old punk with an AK-47 in Fallujah.  These guys are vets of both Gulf Wars, then being shot by some kid who wasn't even old enough to vote in the states, but is going around shooting Marines and getting lucky.

So  even basically saying that your Arch-Militant is basically being given a free pass from said ****** with an autogun, when said ****** if this was real life could and should still be a threat is definatly entering comic book land and fantasy, which isn't a bad thing with game design, which is why most people aren't complaining about the minion rules.

 



#55 Pneumonica

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 12:34 PM

Dezmond said:

I remain unconvinced that this is ideal for a setting where camoflage and helmets are optional and chainsaw swords standard issue equipment.

You need to realise you are working in comicbook land, with all that that entails.

 

 

I remain unconvinced that you understand the setting.  You need to realize that you're not working in comicbook land, and you never were.  You're dealing with a game in which the average Space Marine hits half the time against foes who stand within 40 feet of range with them.  And these are the "superpower" characters that you keep harping on - the "ultimate fighters of the futuristic battlefield" hit just half the time rather than the average soldier's third.  Where did comicbook land happen again?  Was it with the "lack of" camouflage that's so effective that scout units can creep up to within 50 feet of enemy positions without drawing fire?  Or was it with the fact that the ultimate "stabby" army will lose approximately half its numbers before closing into melee combat with Space Marines, and that's if they're winning?

The game, despite being science fictiony and having some seriously over-the-top elements, isn't the THIS IS SPARTA game that you make it out to be.  The Space Marines never were, the Eldar and the Orks never were, none of them ever were.  Ever.  At all.

Dezmond said:

I don't think players are going to be too happy when their veteran of hundreds of battles gets punked in the first battle of the campaign by some ****** with an autogun. Do you?

 

I do.  If they're dumb enough not to seek cover, they would have never gotten to where they are, nor should they have.  Players who play like that might be part and parlance of your gaming table, but I have yet to play at a gaming table that matches your expectations, and I've been RP gaming for nearly as long as the hobby's been around.



#56 Xathess Wolfe

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 01:06 PM

Pneumonica said:

I remain unconvinced that you understand the setting.  You need to realize that you're not working in comicbook land, and you never were.  You're dealing with a game in which the average Space Marine hits half the time against foes who stand within 40 feet of range with them.  And these are the "superpower" characters that you keep harping on - the "ultimate fighters of the futuristic battlefield" hit just half the time rather than the average soldier's third.  Where did comicbook land happen again? 

I may have to disagree with you there to a point.  Against normal humans Space Marines are very potent, literally killing dozens if not hundreds before going down.  Many of the books have shown that even when a normal human burns down a Chaos Marine (arguably the Polar opposite of a Space marine) its because they had help... LOTS of help... and most of those who were helping didn't make it out.

Which is why to me minion rules and hit point scaling are so important.  One 100 hit point space marine vs 100 1 hit point damage minions, that space marine is going to take a lot of those minions out, but even if those minions do 50 hit points the first round ( assuming misses), 25 hit points the second round (with misses and casulaties), 15 hit points the third round (the space marine is having to move now because the minions are more spread out destroying his hit to kill ratio) and 5, 3 and 2 hit points the final round, while there aren't many if any minions left, the Space Marine is dead.  Sure that Space Marine took out an entire reinforced company of minions, but he still died, which is where the hit points and toughness come in and minion rules.

This was reiniforced in the Dark Heresy published story with the Space Marine NPC, who was severly injured by the end, but yet was still a killing machine.  Space Marines are supposed to be deadly, and I agree with Dezmond on this aspect, but a Space Marine still needs to be careful.  That Space marine could have done a lot more damage, and still lived with a bit of cover and concealment... like trenches.

And while admittedly I haven't played it yet, from what I'm told Dawn of  War II uses cover and concealment as well, and since GW approved Dawn of War II I'm going to assume that while Space Marines are deadly, and theoretically can take a company of normal humans by just charging in, that Space marine would be better off not sacrificing himself, and using cover and concealment and tactics to win the day.



#57 Dezmond

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 01:08 PM

+++++The Space Marines never were+++++

Give it time old son. They already are in their novels, and do we think they will get less badass fluff than a lowly Arch-Militant?

--

Yeah, minion rules make loads of difference. And I agree it is better to give people lots of hit points than more armour - that way the smaller threats remain a problem that must be kept in mind (cause those bee stings add up), but one bad roll won't take out a character with no chance to recover the situation.



#58 Kage2020

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 01:15 PM

Another forum, the same old threads?

Sorry, that's not very productive.  Perhaps we need a "cinematic" Dark Heresy (erm, more cinematic than it already is) that would suit Dezmond?  I wonder if someone is willing to produce?

Kage



#59 LuciusT

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 01:44 PM

Pneumonica said:

 You need to realize that you're not working in comicbook land, and you never were. 

 

In a tabletop game of Warhammer 40k, which is the source material for all of this, I once had an Eldar Farseer single handedly destroy a Land Raider tank with a SWORD! Jump... Slice... BOOM!!! That's not just comicbook. It's pure anime.



#60 Kage2020

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 01:49 PM

And that is one of the actions that is often supported by the game that makes me go, "naaaah..."

Kage






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