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Edge of Empire Beta Update: Week 1


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#41 Inksplat

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 11:09 AM

Thinking of it, in both A New Hope and Empire, I don't think they ever -don't- run away, except for the Death Star attack run.



#42 GoblynByte

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 11:14 AM

Inksplat said:

Thinking of it, in both A New Hope and Empire, I don't think they ever -don't- run away, except for the Death Star attack run.

Han chases down the stormtroopers… but then proceeds to retreat. Han, Chewie, and Luke stand out in the open in the Detention Center, but they had the advantage of surprise. Other than that, though, you're right. This has been one of my soap boxes for years. People define "being heroic" in RPGs as being able to stand out in the fray of bullets taking multiple hits and shaking them off like nothing happened. And somehow they think that's emulation of the source material. But that just doesn't jive with what we see in the movies.



#43 Gallandro

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 11:49 AM

 Yeah, the only real "stand and fight" moment was Han, Luke and Chewie's attack on the detention center, but even then they are forced to retreat as more troops arrive.

BTW, I think the defense mechanic works just fine as is.

Yancy



#44 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 01:39 PM

Gallandro said:

BTW, I think the defense mechanic works just fine as is.

Especially when you take into account how easy it is to dole out setback dice to your opponents through use of Advantages, or even to give yourself a boost to Defense on a particularly good roll.


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#45 GoblynByte

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 09:52 PM

Donovan Morningfire said:

Gallandro said:

 

BTW, I think the defense mechanic works just fine as is.

 

 

Especially when you take into account how easy it is to dole out setback dice to your opponents through use of Advantages, or even to give yourself a boost to Defense on a particularly good roll.

Yessss! I know I personally found the level of lethality to be quite satisfying. I think the players got a feeling of danger, knowing that a couple blows could take them out, but nobody actually had been taken out. There was, I think, only one significant strike on a player and it wasn't fatal by any stretch. Maybe one crit on a player and it wasn't noteworthy. I think the result of the crit caused a destiny point to flip over to the Dark Side.

All in all, the combat system added a good mixture of excitement and tension.



#46 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 12:37 AM

GoblynByte said:

Yessss! I know I personally found the level of lethality to be quite satisfying. I think the players got a feeling of danger, knowing that a couple blows could take them out, but nobody actually had been taken out. There was, I think, only one significant strike on a player and it wasn't fatal by any stretch. Maybe one crit on a player and it wasn't noteworthy. I think the result of the crit caused a destiny point to flip over to the Dark Side.

All in all, the combat system added a good mixture of excitement and tension.

Indeed, and especially when compared to the "fuel tank of hit points" approach that most d20 games took, namely D&D 4e (which caused fights to really drag on) and to an extent Saga Edition (though the presence of the Condition Track helped mitigate that).

I got the chance to play in a (sadly) short-lived Babylon 5 campaign using the 2nd edition produced by Mongoose Publishing.  And in most instances, if you try to stand out in the open, you are going to get dropped, a poignant lesson for the Narn Soldier/bodyguard PC that thought he could at least weather a few PPG blasts (GM had us build our characters at 6th level, and he had the most HP by far).  There's a damn good reason why even the heroes of the TV series made use of cover and suppression fire in most fights.


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#47 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 02:13 AM

Donovan Morningfire said:

I got the chance to play in a (sadly) short-lived Babylon 5 campaign using the 2nd edition produced by Mongoose Publishing.  And in most instances, if you try to stand out in the open, you are going to get dropped, a poignant lesson for the Narn Soldier/bodyguard PC that thought he could at least weather a few PPG blasts (GM had us build our characters at 6th level, and he had the most HP by far).  There's a damn good reason why even the heroes of the TV series made use of cover and suppression fire in most fights.

 

Is this actually a problem these days?

Surely the most munchkin video gamer will know that the first thing you do in a shooter is stick to a chest high wall and start laying down fire? Ever since Gears of War there is an actual button to make you stick to the cover.

I mean, show any gamer a chest high wall and surely they will instinctively want to take cover behind it.

And games like Full Spectrum Warrior  and Brothers in Arms: Hells Highway revolve around cover, suppression and flanking.

(If just getting people to take cover was the goal, I would design the game around having a series of cover points set up on a board - you can only move between cover points. Shooting at someone in cover places suppression markers on them, so they cannot move or fire. Once a target is suppressed, you send a unit to flank them, and once flanking fire is achieved, you can eliminate said target.)



#48 Darth_Dogg

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 02:42 PM

I forgot about using the percentile dice to represent d100! Thanks for the reminder! 



#49 Slaunyeh

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:25 PM

GoblynByte said:

Inksplat said:

 

Thinking of it, in both A New Hope and Empire, I don't think they ever -don't- run away, except for the Death Star attack run.

 

 

Han chases down the stormtroopers… but then proceeds to retreat. Han, Chewie, and Luke stand out in the open in the Detention Center, but they had the advantage of surprise. Other than that, though, you're right. This has been one of my soap boxes for years. People define "being heroic" in RPGs as being able to stand out in the fray of bullets taking multiple hits and shaking them off like nothing happened. And somehow they think that's emulation of the source material. But that just doesn't jive with what we see in the movies.

I've noticed that shift in my gaming group as well. Back in the day where we played Star Wars, being out-gunned and out-numbered was a regular thing. Sometimes you just had to retreat. Sometimes you got captured. Some of our best sessions started out with the players locked up in a detention cell thoroughly derailing the GMs plans.

Fast forward ten years of D&D 3e 'balanced encounters'. Running away? Unthinkable. Getting captured (or *gasp* surrendering)? Never! And if a fight is unwinable it's the GM being a jerk or just bad at balancing encounters. I've run a good deal of Dark Heresy "therapy sessions" in recent years, but there's a lot of damage to be undone. We're not quite there yet. ;)

(And don't get me started on the "jedi should be better than everybody" nonsense.)



#50 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 01:00 AM

Slaunyeh said:

(And don't get me started on the "jedi should be better than everybody" nonsense.)

Well, unfortunately there's the movies (the highest level of Star Wars canon) pretty much saying that the Jedi (at least the ones that have been properly and fully trained at least) are better than everybody.  The way that some EU writers tended to treat Luke as some nigh-omnipotent super-wizard didn't help either.  I think the only EU writers that really did Post-RotE era Force-users justice were Timothy Zahn and Michale Stackpole (though his fondness for Corran Horn).

Faster reaction times, a useful array of psuedo-psychic powers, proficiency with a very dangerous weapon that is equally good for offense and defense… Luke Skywalker cleaning house on Jabba's goons in RotJ pretty well proved how dangerous a trained Jedi could be in comparison to "normal people." It was almost a reverse Godzilla effect, with the unstoppable rampaging monster being the hero instead of the villain.  Han and Chewie on their best days would be hard-pressed to match that level of carnage without resorting to starship-scale weaponry.

The only person in that entire fight sequence that even slowed him down?  Fandom-driven memetic bad-ass Boba Fett, and that was just for a few seconds (the lasso thingy probably had the Ensnare quality, and Luke was able to make the Hard Athletics check to slip free on his next turn) before getting knocked to the ground by a deflected shot from a blaster cannon.

While I do agree that it shouldn't be the case in the RPG that Jedi are simply "just better," at least not without having first spent a significant amount of character resources (XP in this system) to build up to being that powerful.


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#51 Shakespearian_Soldier

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 12:39 PM

 Love the errata; nice to see that a lot of what players have pointed out have been taken into consideration. :) Keep it up folks!


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#52 HappyDaze

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 08:40 PM

AluminiumWolf said:

Donovan Morningfire said:

I got the chance to play in a (sadly) short-lived Babylon 5 campaign using the 2nd edition produced by Mongoose Publishing.  And in most instances, if you try to stand out in the open, you are going to get dropped, a poignant lesson for the Narn Soldier/bodyguard PC that thought he could at least weather a few PPG blasts (GM had us build our characters at 6th level, and he had the most HP by far).  There's a damn good reason why even the heroes of the TV series made use of cover and suppression fire in most fights.

 

Is this actually a problem these days?

Surely the most munchkin video gamer will know that the first thing you do in a shooter is stick to a chest high wall and start laying down fire? Ever since Gears of War there is an actual button to make you stick to the cover.

I mean, show any gamer a chest high wall and surely they will instinctively want to take cover behind it.

And games like Full Spectrum Warrior  and Brothers in Arms: Hells Highway revolve around cover, suppression and flanking.

(If just getting people to take cover was the goal, I would design the game around having a series of cover points set up on a board - you can only move between cover points. Shooting at someone in cover places suppression markers on them, so they cannot move or fire. Once a target is suppressed, you send a unit to flank them, and once flanking fire is achieved, you can eliminate said target.)

There are still gamers out there that don't play video games much (or at all) even these days.


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#53 Stacie_GmrGrl

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 03:35 PM

I love the changes to the Gands Species from the Update, but I really want to see what everybody thinks of their Characteristics Ratings…

Namely that I personally think they should have a Presence 1 and Intellect 2.

Reasons: They are ugly (to me), they generally keep to themselves, and they love to tinker and just based on their description, and comparing this version to previous versions (namely d20 versions) they always got a negative to charisma related stats and a bonus to mental/Intellect related stats. Because they are constant tinkerers, always customizing their own gear to fit their own style, I really think the switch to the above is viable, and would make sense.

I also think giving them the option to either begin with one rank in Discipline OR Mechanics could be fitting.



#54 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 01:46 AM

Stacie_GmrGrl said:

I love the changes to the Gands Species from the Update, but I really want to see what everybody thinks of their Characteristics Ratings…

Namely that I personally think they should have a Presence 1 and Intellect 2.

Reasons: They are ugly (to me), they generally keep to themselves, and they love to tinker and just based on their description, and comparing this version to previous versions (namely d20 versions) they always got a negative to charisma related stats and a bonus to mental/Intellect related stats. Because they are constant tinkerers, always customizing their own gear to fit their own style, I really think the switch to the above is viable, and would make sense.

I also think giving them the option to either begin with one rank in Discipline OR Mechanics could be fitting.

I did some re-reading of the Gand, both on Wookieepedia and their previous RPG entries, and I'm inclined to agree.  Nothing about the Gand we see suggests they're dunces, but instead are extremely introverted due to their culture putting the emphasis on extraordinary individuals by not allowing equally gifted folk the right to use their own name.  And the option for Mechanics would be a neat option as well.


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