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#41 LethalDose

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 05:29 AM

Donovan Morningfire said:


LethalDose said:
At least for Autofire, it makes sense that you could mow down multiple Minions in one go, since in terms of how the mechanics operate, Autofire allows you to hit a single target multiple times, with the damage to a Minion group being abstracted.
A Critical Hit just means you drop said minion outright, and has the caveat that if activated multiple times against a single opponent, you just add +10 to the Critical Hit roll for each additional Crit activation (something I'd missed on the initial read-thru). Like I said, I'm extremey hesitant about allowing it, as bumps weapons like the lightsaber into perhpap being too effective at goon sweeping, seeing as how a base hit already guarentees two dead minions, and two or three Advantage on the roll means a dead minion group. Admittedly, such a thing would fall into the realm of Rule of Cool, but in terms of game mechanics it might be a thorny issue for some GMs.

Okay, maybe I misinterpreted your original concern. Remember any successful attack may only trigger one critical hit (Critical rating, pg 108). So even though the lightsaber has a crazy CR 1, unless you somehow score multiple hits with one attack (I don’t think this is currently possible with a melee weapon), then even if you rolled 8 advantage on a successful strike, only one of those advantages could be spent to activate a critical strike, leaving 7 more for whatever. The character could use all of those advantages to really crank up that one critical hit (Giving it a +70 on the crit roll), but its still a single critical strike, and it doesn’t matter what the modifier on the roll is; one crit drops one minion.

With auto-fire, a single attack can cause multiple hits, but again, each hit can only cause a single critical strike (pg 105). I would not say a single attack against a group of minions counts as multiple hits automatically simply because there are multiple NPCs that may get hit. For example, lets say a character attacks a goon squad with a heavy blaster rifle (dmg 10, CR 3) on full auto and rolls a hit with 7 advantages. He then spends his advantages as follows:

• 3 Adv to activate a critical hit (drops a minion, no more crits can be triggered without more hits)
• 1 Adv to activate an additional hit from auto-fire (adds 10 damage to attack)
• 3 Adv to activate another critical hit (drops a minion)

If the weapon had be jury-rigged as you described (CR 2), the adv on the roll would be spent as follows:

• 2 Adv to activate a crit (drops a minion, no more crits can be triggered without more hits)
• 1 Adv to activate an additional hit from auto-shot (adds 10 damage to attack)
• 2 Adv to activate another crit (minion down)
• 1 Adv to activate another hit (+10 damage to attack)
• 1 Adv to… do whatever, there aren’t enough left to activate a crit.

Both times, all those advantages only drop an additional 2 minions. If a minions wounds + Soak < weapon damage, it’s probably more economical to activate additional auto-fire hits, because the damage from the additional hit will almost certainly drop one minion, and may get more. The math above doesn’t even account for the difference in cost between additional auto-fire hits and CR. The roll in the example above could have generated the results above :20 damage + 2 crits (base), or 30 damage + 2 crits + 1 adv (jury-rigged weapon), OR they could have generated just a raw 80 damage to the group.

It’s actually not very clear if you can spend adv/triumph to activate CR on an attack that causes wounds to exceed the targets wound threshold. I think you can do this (crits come from different mechanisms, and I think adv should be spent prior to the player knowing the outcome of the roll), but I’m concerned about it violating the “one hit, one crit” rule. This doesn’t really matter for minions, though, since they don’t track wounds against a normal threshold.

-WJL

PS This forum software is starting to get under my skin, Its deleting entire swaths of my text when I hit backspace once. Its occurring on multiple platforms, may have to try firefox instead of chrome.

 


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#42 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 07:23 AM

LethalDose said:

PS This forum software is starting to get under my skin, Its deleting entire swaths of my text when I hit backspace once. Its occurring on multiple platforms, may have to try firefox instead of chrome.

 

It is slightly better if you stick in a rogue character at the end of what you are typing so you are not pressing backspace at the actual end of the text, but yes, it is getting unusable. h



#43 LethalDose

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 07:38 AM

Good advice.  and

AluminiumWolf said:

h

lol h.


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#44 gribble

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 09:06 AM

LethalDose said:

 

So even though the lightsaber has a crazy CR 1, unless you somehow score multiple hits with one attack (I don’t think this is currently possible with a melee weapon), then even if you rolled 8 advantage on a successful strike, only one of those advantages could be spent to activate a critical strike, leaving 7 more for whatever.

You can if you dual wield two of them (which shouldn't really be an issue for EotE games, but could be in the future). I don't think there is any other way at present to score multiple hits with a melee weapon…
 
Ugh… not even sure *what* the forum software did to that post…

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#45 Greedo is Good

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:26 AM

For those who GM from word processing documents, here's an NPC stat-block that worked well for my second session.  The cells expand as necessary and there's room for lots of skills, or talents or abilities or any combination thereof.  It can be copied and pasted right into the text of an outline or whatever one uses.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1ePVf9x50N_WFNwSXFJUjNWdVU/edit



#46 3WhiteFox3

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:48 AM

Greedo is Good said:

For those who GM from word processing documents, here's an NPC stat-block that worked well for my second session.  The cells expand as necessary and there's room for lots of skills, or talents or abilities or any combination thereof.  It can be copied and pasted right into the text of an outline or whatever one uses.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1ePVf9x50N_WFNwSXFJUjNWdVU/edit

The link you gave says that I have to get permission to use this.



#47 Greedo is Good

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:35 AM

3WhiteFox3 said:

Greedo is Good said:

 

For those who GM from word processing documents, here's an NPC stat-block that worked well for my second session.  The cells expand as necessary and there's room for lots of skills, or talents or abilities or any combination thereof.  It can be copied and pasted right into the text of an outline or whatever one uses.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1ePVf9x50N_WFNwSXFJUjNWdVU/edit

 

The link you gave says that I have to get permission to use this.

 

I think it's now set for anyone to grab it.



#48 CharlieBananas

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:30 AM

So I'm preparing for my next game, and was going to use the spaceport security officer (p.200), he has the ability - SQUAD BONUS but it's not described, anyone know what it does. Like-wise the sector ranger (p.203)  has BRUTAL 1 listed and no rules listed for it's use.

Also as a side note the spaceport security officer is listed as having padded armor (+2 soak) but his soak / defense is listed as 4/1 with a brawn of 3 it looks like he should be wearing armored clothing (+1 / +1).



#49 Venthrac

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:10 PM

 I'm a bit confused about minions who operate in groups. I ran a test combat last night in which I threw a couple of groups of stormtrooper minions against a party of PCs. I used miniatures on my table to represents positions and distances. For my two squads of stormies, I had three minions in each, moving around in formation at short range from each other so as not to be obvious grenade fodder.

One of the PCs ran up to one of the stormtroopers, engaged it and attacked it with a force pike. The resulting damage was sufficient to knock out two stormtrooper minions, but the PC was only engaged with one of them. By rule, attacks against a group of minions target the entire group at once, but I wasn't sure how to handle it if the attacker was only engaged with one of the stormtroopers.

The rules seem to be written with the assumption that the PCs are making ranged attacks against the minion group, as there is no mention of how to handle melee attacks and engagements against groups of minions that are spread out.

What do you guys think?



#50 Venthrac

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:11 PM

 Also, the Sector Ranger has a special ability called "Brutal 1", but there is no explanation give for what that is.



#51 Exalted5

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:58 PM

 For those of you that have played more than 1-2 games:  are you finding that the majority of minions have way too much (4+) soak?  

I know that this was harped on earlier (specifically with regard to stormtroopers), but many of the minions have stats that are equivalent to, or better than, your typically PC even after a few games… Considering how the dice mechanics work (more dice > upgrades) AND considering that character creation is somewhat limiting in terms of characteristics (BR 3 isn't "common"), it just seems strange that a street thug minion is running around with BR 3 and 4 soak.  That's just one example of many.

A couple of my PCs (hacker, doctor) are sitting around 2 soak, but minions are mostly twice that.

Seems like minions need a characteristic retune.  And also shouldn't be running around with 500+ credits worth of gear.  To be clear, I'm NOT referring to stormtroopers (although their encumbrance is whacked if you add it up).



#52 Boehm

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 03:31 AM

Exalted5 said:

 For those of you that have played more than 1-2 games:  are you finding that the majority of minions have way too much (4+) soak?  

I know that this was harped on earlier (specifically with regard to stormtroopers), but many of the minions have stats that are equivalent to, or better than, your typically PC even after a few games… Considering how the dice mechanics work (more dice > upgrades) AND considering that character creation is somewhat limiting in terms of characteristics (BR 3 isn't "common"), it just seems strange that a street thug minion is running around with BR 3 and 4 soak.  That's just one example of many.

A couple of my PCs (hacker, doctor) are sitting around 2 soak, but minions are mostly twice that.

Seems like minions need a characteristic retune.  And also shouldn't be running around with 500+ credits worth of gear.  To be clear, I'm NOT referring to stormtroopers (although their encumbrance is whacked if you add it up).

I dont necessarily think its a problem - I mean a street thug … a Hells Angel biker …SHOULD have brawn 3+ .. and a 16yo skinny girl would have problems fighting him off (Brawn 1) … that being said I too observed that IT IS tough playing a Brawn 1 character, then again …then dont play a Brawn 1 character :) dumping a stat to 1 SHOULD hurt …and speaking of soak, after a session or two most characters should be able to pick up a soak 2 armour.

My feeling is that many people who are frustrated about the powerlevel / soak etc - expect this or would like it to be a balanced tactical game akin to D&D whereas Im expecting more of a WFRP2 feel where some characters just simply are not fighters (nor should all minions be!) … and where I wouldnt necessarily expect combat encounters in every session …

 



#53 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 03:43 AM

Exalted5 said:

 For those of you that have played more than 1-2 games:  are you finding that the majority of minions have way too much (4+) soak?  

I know that this was harped on earlier (specifically with regard to stormtroopers), but many of the minions have stats that are equivalent to, or better than, your typically PC even after a few games… Considering how the dice mechanics work (more dice > upgrades) AND considering that character creation is somewhat limiting in terms of characteristics (BR 3 isn't "common"), it just seems strange that a street thug minion is running around with BR 3 and 4 soak.  That's just one example of many.

A couple of my PCs (hacker, doctor) are sitting around 2 soak, but minions are mostly twice that.

Seems like minions need a characteristic retune.  And also shouldn't be running around with 500+ credits worth of gear.  To be clear, I'm NOT referring to stormtroopers (although their encumbrance is whacked if you add it up).

Well, minions also have the serious drawback of only have a Wound Threshold of 5 and no Strain Threshold.  So any talents (Politico has a doozy) or other abilities (like the Influence basic power) that deals Strain damage instead get applied to the Minion's Wound Threshold with their Soak Value not allowed.  Further, a critical hit takes that minon out of the fight, even the attack only did a single point of damage, and I don't think there's very many (if any) minions that have a Soak Value greater than 5, which means your basic blaster pistol will do damage on a basic success.

To my view, it's akin to 4e's take on minions, where they're going to have slightly better defense values than a regular foe of that level, but they go down automatically if you hit them.  So EotE's minions, particularly the ones who are geared for combat, like street thugs, stormtroopers, Imperial Army, and such, need a better Soak Value than your average PC, as they can't withstand as much damage as the PCs can.  Heck, a PC with a blaster carbine or rifle is quite capable of dropping a minion with a single shot each round with a basic level of success and no additional talents or weapon qualities.


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#54 3WhiteFox3

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 04:20 AM

Boehm said:

Exalted5 said:

 

 For those of you that have played more than 1-2 games:  are you finding that the majority of minions have way too much (4+) soak?  

I know that this was harped on earlier (specifically with regard to stormtroopers), but many of the minions have stats that are equivalent to, or better than, your typically PC even after a few games… Considering how the dice mechanics work (more dice > upgrades) AND considering that character creation is somewhat limiting in terms of characteristics (BR 3 isn't "common"), it just seems strange that a street thug minion is running around with BR 3 and 4 soak.  That's just one example of many.

A couple of my PCs (hacker, doctor) are sitting around 2 soak, but minions are mostly twice that.

Seems like minions need a characteristic retune.  And also shouldn't be running around with 500+ credits worth of gear.  To be clear, I'm NOT referring to stormtroopers (although their encumbrance is whacked if you add it up).

 

 

I dont necessarily think its a problem - I mean a street thug … a Hells Angel biker …SHOULD have brawn 3+ .. and a 16yo skinny girl would have problems fighting him off (Brawn 1) … that being said I too observed that IT IS tough playing a Brawn 1 character, then again …then dont play a Brawn 1 character :) dumping a stat to 1 SHOULD hurt …and speaking of soak, after a session or two most characters should be able to pick up a soak 2 armour.

My feeling is that many people who are frustrated about the powerlevel / soak etc - expect this or would like it to be a balanced tactical game akin to D&D whereas Im expecting more of a WFRP2 feel where some characters just simply are not fighters (nor should all minions be!) … and where I wouldnt necessarily expect combat encounters in every session …

 

The question would then be; is playing Brawn 1 as tough as playing Intellect 1 or Agility 1? Or is it worse?



#55 Boehm

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:29 AM

3WhiteFox3 said:

 

Exalted5 said:

 

 

The question would then be; is playing Brawn 1 as tough as playing Intellect 1 or Agility 1? Or is it worse?

 

 

depends how much u get shot ;)



#56 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:34 AM

3WhiteFox3 said:

The question would then be; is playing Brawn 1 as tough as playing Intellect 1 or Agility 1? Or is it worse? 

A bit off-topic, but a fair question.

Frankly, if there's going to be any combat during a session, the Brawn 1 character is at a significant disadvantage, something I saw first hand with the Twi'lek Technician/Mechanic that was a test PC in a demo game I ran.  After the first combat and witnessing how dangerous combat could be, her first priority was to seek out cover try to draw as little attention to herself in a fight as possible so as not to get blasted.

You can get by with an Agility of 1 so long as you're not a ranged combatant, as a buddy who played a Trando Hired Gun/Marauder quite aptly proved during a Skype session.  Granted, having to resort to melee combat in a game where ranged combat rules the roost means you're going to get shot up a good deal more than the PCs who are using blasters, but that's true regardless of what your Agility score is.

Intellect 1 really isn't much of a drawback, especially for a combat-character, as it mostly impacts skill checks, leaving you to rely on raising your skill ranks to get more ability dice, and pretty much being capped at 1 proficiency die on those Intellect-based skills.  But odds are good there's going to be other PCs with a decent Intellect, so that's much less of an issue in terms of group information… just don't get caugth solo when you've got to hotwire a door lock or plot an Astrogation course.


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#57 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:12 AM

Back on-topic, this past Friday the Skype game I played in had a Defel Assassin as one of the bad guy, along with a Barabel that got used as target practice and a couple groups of Quarren thugs.

And with Adversary 3, my combat-focused PC was probably the only one in the party with a decent chance of hitting him using my primary weapon (blaster carbine), with the Brawl attack I made only connecting mostly due to sheer luck (both Challenge dice came up blank).  Any of the other PCs probably would have needed similar quantities of  luck with their main attacks.  And given that most of the careers don't have access to a lot of combat skills, it'd be quite easy to have a party of non-combat pros suffer from lots of failed rolls (no Successes, few if any Advantages) when facing something like that.

This kinda got me to thinking, that maybe the Defel Assassin should only have Adversary 2, and that Adversary 3 should really be reserved for really big-league threats, like the Black Sun Vigo and the Emperor's Hand, and possibly the Forsaken Jedi (who can get by with Adversary 2 quite well thanks to having the 'sense danger' upgrade for Sense).  Maybe it's just my point of view, but Adversary 3 should only be applied to the major villains, who when finally confronted would be the equivalent of an end-of-story-arc Boss Battle in an video-game RPG, who have a name and some back story beyond "tough enemy that's fighting the PCs."  Granted, I probably don't know the full story behind what the GM (Cyril) has in mind for this Defel, but it kinda felt like that particularly combat was a "mid-story" encounter, and that perhaps the Defel was a bit too tough with having Adversary 3, seeing as how this was only our party's second "adventure" overall.

Just some thoughts.


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#58 LethalDose

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:57 AM

Donovan Morningfire said:

Back on-topic, this past Friday the Skype game I played in had a Defel Assassin as one of the bad guy, along with a Barabel that got used as target practice and a couple groups of Quarren thugs.

And with Adversary 3, my combat-focused PC was probably the only one in the party with a decent chance of hitting him using my primary weapon (blaster carbine), with the Brawl attack I made only connecting mostly due to sheer luck (both Challenge dice came up blank).  Any of the other PCs probably would have needed similar quantities of  luck with their main attacks.  And given that most of the careers don't have access to a lot of combat skills, it'd be quite easy to have a party of non-combat pros suffer from lots of failed rolls (no Successes, few if any Advantages) when facing something like that.

What power level were your players' characters?  That's pretty critical information to be including here.

Without that infomation, its a completely unfair way to judge a mechanism used to increase difficulty if you throw some newly minted PCs at a henchmen with Adversary 3 that probably SHOULDN'T be able to handle straight out of the gate and then claim the stats need to be nerfed.  

-WJL


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#59 gribble

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:47 AM

Assuming that FFG never intended Adversary to go over 3, and that Adversary 3 is considered the equivalent of the toughest opponent(s) in Saga edition, I'd say that it makes sense that for every 5 CR of the opponent (in Saga terms), the opponent should have 1 adversary, i.e.: CR 1-5 = Adversary 0, CR 6-10 = Adversary 1, CR 11-15 = Adversary 2, CR 16+ Adversary 3.

So, looking at the table of equivalence I reverse engineered between Saga XP and EotE XP, that means that for every point of adversary the party should have earned roughly 200-250XP (and less than 200XP you probably shouldn't be throwing foes with Adversary - or at least greater than Adversary 1 - at them).

Of course, FFG may instead assume that EotE only spans the equivalent of level 1-10 (Or maybe even 1-5) in Saga, in which case you'll have to adjust the numbers accordingly.

This seems to match up pretty well with my (limited) experience, that the master hunter, with Adversary 1, was a very tough opponent for my party of characters with 2-3 sessions under their belt (which would be the equivalent of a CR 4-5 opponent in Saga).

 

 


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#60 BrashFink

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:26 PM

After my first playtest last weekend (FINALLY!) we ran into confusion over a set of Bounty Hunter Minions.

First we ran into confusion over the Soak value listed. The Wounds are multiplied by the total number, but the Soak couldn't be (it would be impossibly high if it was), but this is not clearly listed as such. We determined that you had to overcome Soak for each individual with remaining damage continuing on to the next Minion. So 14 damage would pass 3 Soak, kill 1 minion (6), Soak 3 on the next, and do 2 more damage. It appears everyone else just determined that the Soak is just applied once. This is fine, we just made a quick decision since we could not find a answer. More clarification in the final book would have prevented this.

Second of all, we determined that the skill rating would go down for the group as their number is thinned. I don't believe we read this actual rule either, just made the determination on how the rule for the Group Skills worked. Anyone else doing this?






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