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#21 Daegren

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 04:58 AM

Ferretz said:

Also, a Minion group could, for example, have one sharpshooter in the mix?

Any thoughts?

Eirik

The minion’s mechanic is designed for back ground battle fluff and damage. I understand they can actually do a sizable amount of damage over time or with a good roll here and there, but all in all they are more table dressing for the over-all adventure/encounter.

 

Snipers or Sharpshooters would be considered a low level NPC in my opinion. This is a unique element that makes the encounter extra nasty or difficult.
 



#22 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 11:20 AM

Daegren said:

The minion’s mechanic is designed for back ground battle fluff and damage. I understand they can actually do a sizable amount of damage over time or with a good roll here and there, but all in all they are more table dressing for the over-all adventure/encounter.

Snipers or Sharpshooters would be considered a low level NPC in my opinion. This is a unique element that makes the encounter extra nasty or difficult.

A Sniper or Sharpshooter would probably just be a Henchman that's operating alongside a minion squad rather than being a part of one.

Alternatively, the presence of a "sniper" or "sharpshooter" could instead be used as a story-based justification for why this pack of minions are now rolling proficiency dice; the other minions that get dropped save for the 2nd-to-last one simply "got in the way" of the heroes' attempts to take out said "sharpshooter," and they only succeed once they attack a minion squad that's down to 2 members, with the last member (now a lone minion) simply being a regular shmoe (and thus why the proficiency die goes away).


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#23 lupex

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 10:32 PM

One thing that I have noticed reading through Crate of Krayts is that some Minions do not have any skills listed, so how would you use them as a group?  What would the mechanical benefit be?

And on a related note, can a group of Minions target more than one enemy?  Or would it be best to split the group to cover more targets?


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#24 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 12:23 AM

lupex said:

One thing that I have noticed reading through Crate of Krayts is that some Minions do not have any skills listed, so how would you use them as a group?  What would the mechanical benefit be?

And on a related note, can a group of Minions target more than one enemy?  Or would it be best to split the group to cover more targets?

The mechanical "benefit" would be that the GM has a few less individual bad guys to keep track of, which in bigger fights can be a huge boon.

As for what a group of minions could target, I'd leave it that they can only target one enemy at a time.  Granted, I think you can put minions into groups of 2, so you can use that option to let your minions get the benefit of their skill ranks (when they have them) and still be able to attack more than one PC at a time.  Mind you, I'm away from my book, but it kinda seems that for a lot of EotE combats, putting minions in groups of 2 seems to be the easiest way to increase their threat to the PCs and yet still have them be easily taken down. 


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#25 Cyril

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:31 AM

Donovan Morningfire said:

 

lupex said:

 

One thing that I have noticed reading through Crate of Krayts is that some Minions do not have any skills listed, so how would you use them as a group?  What would the mechanical benefit be?

And on a related note, can a group of Minions target more than one enemy?  Or would it be best to split the group to cover more targets?

 

 

The mechanical "benefit" would be that the GM has a few less individual bad guys to keep track of, which in bigger fights can be a huge boon.

As for what a group of minions could target, I'd leave it that they can only target one enemy at a time.  Granted, I think you can put minions into groups of 2, so you can use that option to let your minions get the benefit of their skill ranks (when they have them) and still be able to attack more than one PC at a time.  Mind you, I'm away from my book, but it kinda seems that for a lot of EotE combats, putting minions in groups of 2 seems to be the easiest way to increase their threat to the PCs and yet still have them be easily taken down. 

 

 

It actually clearly states that when minions are fighting in a group, they attack as a whole, not as individuals. So they make one attack roll against one target - same exact way squads worked in Saga Edition. The other minions in the group are considered to be "aiding each other."

Same way when the PCs are attacking the minion group. They attack the group as a whole instead of Stormtrooper B.



#26 lupex

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 09:51 PM

Cyril said:

Donovan Morningfire said:

 The mechanical "benefit" would be that the GM has a few less individual bad guys to keep track of, which in bigger fights can be a huge boon.

It actually clearly states that when minions are fighting in a group, they attack as a whole, not as individuals. So they make one attack roll against one target - same exact way squads worked in Saga Edition. The other minions in the group are considered to be "aiding each other."

Same way when the PCs are attacking the minion group. They attack the group as a whole instead of Stormtrooper B.

I understand the rules for using Minions as groups but a Minion Group of 4 Minions without a skill, such as Ranged (Light), would not be any significant threat to a group of PCs as they would have no skill dice in thier dice pool.  Whereas a Minion Group of 4 Minions with a relevent skill would have the opportunity to include 3 skill dice in thier pool, thus becoming a significant threat. 

The only benefit of having a group of unskilled Minions is that they would have a higher level of wounds but they could only target one PC each round, so they may as well attack as individuals?


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#27 Callidon

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 06:14 AM

:edit:

I had a reading comprehension fail :-).  As you were Lupex.


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#28 Majesticmoose

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 03:00 PM

So here's a wonderment:  If you use a grenade on a group of minions… does that deal damage to "each" Minion in range of the blast, or does it deal damage to the "group" as a single entity. 

 

My gut reaction is to deal damage to each minion, effectively making AoE minion sweepers, as this fits the idea I have for what a grenade should do to a group of thugs, but I can understand the RAW view as well, since the abstraction of a "group" as a single enemy is done for balance and narrative.

 

Has anyone else encountered this?



#29 LethalDose

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 07:15 PM

Majesticmoose said:

So here's a wonderment:  If you use a grenade on a group of minions… does that deal damage to "each" Minion in range of the blast, or does it deal damage to the "group" as a single entity. 

 

My gut reaction is to deal damage to each minion, effectively making AoE minion sweepers, as this fits the idea I have for what a grenade should do to a group of thugs, but I can understand the RAW view as well, since the abstraction of a "group" as a single enemy is done for balance and narrative.

 

Has anyone else encountered this?

I haven't encountered the situation, but I'd say you were right.  Reading the blast description, when activated, it deals blast damage to all characters in range (friend or foe).  While the minion group, aka "goon squad", operates as an "entity" they are still individual characters.

The sticking point here is that it never states that minions are required to be in an engagement to form a goon squad to begin with, nor must they remain in an engagement to maintain the good squad bonuses.  I think this is something we take for granted.  They could all be spread out over a short (nee close) range area, and acting together, but not susceptible to the blast effect, which hits each other character engaged with the original target.  To use the minions group attack, all the minions should be at the same range to the target, but that's possible to do and not be engaged in the RAW.

 

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#30 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 03:38 AM

Majesticmoose said:

So here's a wonderment:  If you use a grenade on a group of minions… does that deal damage to "each" Minion in range of the blast, or does it deal damage to the "group" as a single entity. 

My gut reaction is to deal damage to each minion, effectively making AoE minion sweepers, as this fits the idea I have for what a grenade should do to a group of thugs, but I can understand the RAW view as well, since the abstraction of a "group" as a single enemy is done for balance and narrative.

Has anyone else encountered this?

Haven't encountered, but I'd be inclined to make a GM ruling and simply let the minion "entity" be taken out if the damage from the Blast quality would be enough to take down a single minion of that type.  It might be a bit powerful, but given these are minions whose sole purpose is to provide a minor threat to the PCs, to say nothing of needing 2 Advantage to trigger that Blast quality, I'm okay with that.


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#31 Exalted5

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 06:19 AM

So then how does wound allocation work?  Let's say a player hits a group of 4 Stormtroopers (5 soak/5 wounds each) for 20 damage (big gun, point blank, lots of successes).

Does he kill two Stormtroopers, or just one?  Does damage get capped at the max wounds of a single entity within the group, or spill over? I can't find this clearly articulated in the rules.



#32 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:34 AM

Exalted5 said:

So then how does wound allocation work?  Let's say a player hits a group of 4 Stormtroopers (5 soak/5 wounds each) for 20 damage (big gun, point blank, lots of successes).

Does he kill two Stormtroopers, or just one?  Does damage get capped at the max wounds of a single entity within the group, or spill over? I can't find this clearly articulated in the rules.

In this case, he'd take out three Stormtroopers, as the damage spills over.

The first five points of that 20 damage would be absorbed by the stormie's Soak Value.  Then the remaining fifteen would be applied against the minion group's combined Wound Threshold of 20.  As every five points of damage takes out a stormtrooper, the PC is doing enough damage to wipe out three of them, leaving a single trooper standing.

That's the 'downside' to minion groups, is that they are easier for heroes to take out due to the damage spill over.

 


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#33 Majesticmoose

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 05:54 PM

Donovan Morningfire said:

Exalted5 said:

 

So then how does wound allocation work?  Let's say a player hits a group of 4 Stormtroopers (5 soak/5 wounds each) for 20 damage (big gun, point blank, lots of successes).

Does he kill two Stormtroopers, or just one?  Does damage get capped at the max wounds of a single entity within the group, or spill over? I can't find this clearly articulated in the rules.

 

 

In this case, he'd take out three Stormtroopers, as the damage spills over.

The first five points of that 20 damage would be absorbed by the stormie's Soak Value.  Then the remaining fifteen would be applied against the minion group's combined Wound Threshold of 20.  As every five points of damage takes out a stormtrooper, the PC is doing enough damage to wipe out three of them, leaving a single trooper standing.

That's the 'downside' to minion groups, is that they are easier for heroes to take out due to the damage spill over.

 

 

Donovan is correct by my count.  To further take this example, if there are 6 battle droids (trade federation soak3/wounds 4) minions outside a crashed republic fighter and a PC leaps out  with a huge vibro sword and strikes succesfully for 16 points and a critical hit, then 4 droids would have been torn to pieces, mimicing high adventure combat without compliocating the game with "multiple attacks" that bog down so many games.

Like donovan said, minions should be minor threats, and IMO should help make the heros feel powerful in the game.



#34 Greedo is Good

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 05:11 AM

I'm planning my second session and I created an NPC stat-block in table-form, to be inserted into a .odt doc (or whatever).  How might I share it here?



#35 LethalDose

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 07:07 AM

Greedo is Good said:

I'm planning my second session and I created an NPC stat-block in table-form, to be inserted into a .odt doc (or whatever).  How might I share it here?

I think posters usually post the document to google docs or dropbox and then post a link.


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#36 Literal_DM

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:20 AM

On Minions - I never had an issue with the PCs making one attack against all minions, but the reverse was a bit confusing to me - as a GM when my Tusken snipers made one collective attack as a group, I was a little unsure about how to build my die pool --- I boosted the attack dice by upgrading a proficiency die for each additional group member beyond the first, calculated range as difficulty --- but some of my players were prone, others had cover, yet others had suffered conditions that should give my Tuskens a boost die on their attack…

So with each PC as an individual target requiring varied, unique dice pool modifications - I was unsure what to do.   Certainly we could adjudicate that any boost and setback dice could cancel each other out, but it still seems odd and unbalanced to calculate - am I missing something?    I'm all for the elegance of speeding up play, giving the PCs some fodder to toy with, etc.    Nobody likes watching their GM roll for a group of four NPCs.   (In other games I sometimes let players roll just to keep em busy and engaged.)

Am i missing something on how to handle minion groups?   Also I thought Minions/Henchmen don't get skills, but they seem to have skill ratings.   Apologies if this has been covered or if I'm way off base.



#37 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 12:56 PM

Literal_DM said:

On Minions - I never had an issue with the PCs making one attack against all minions, but the reverse was a bit confusing to me - as a GM when my Tusken snipers made one collective attack as a group, I was a little unsure about how to build my die pool --- I boosted the attack dice by upgrading a proficiency die for each additional group member beyond the first, calculated range as difficulty --- but some of my players were prone, others had cover, yet others had suffered conditions that should give my Tuskens a boost die on their attack…

So with each PC as an individual target requiring varied, unique dice pool modifications - I was unsure what to do.   Certainly we could adjudicate that any boost and setback dice could cancel each other out, but it still seems odd and unbalanced to calculate - am I missing something?    I'm all for the elegance of speeding up play, giving the PCs some fodder to toy with, etc.    Nobody likes watching their GM roll for a group of four NPCs.   (In other games I sometimes let players roll just to keep em busy and engaged.)

Am i missing something on how to handle minion groups?   Also I thought Minions/Henchmen don't get skills, but they seem to have skill ratings.   Apologies if this has been covered or if I'm way off base.

The thing with Minions is they only get those skills if they're acting as a unified group, treating them as a single entity that is allowed one maneuver and one action each round with a Wound Threshold equal to the combined total of each individual minion.

So for your Tusken Snipers, they only get to use their listed skill ranks in if you put at least two of them into a minion group. and they'd only get to attack one of your PCs on their turn, and whatever status effect (prone, cover, etc) is on the targeted PC would apply, while the status effects on the non-targeted PCs are ignored for that minion group.

Now, if the Tusken Snipers are attacking as individuals, they can each target a separate PC, but don't get the benefit of their skills.

It's kinda hard to explain, but hopefully the above helps clarify things at least a little.


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#38 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:24 PM

Had a thought about minions and how they suffer damage earlier today.

Per the rules regarding minions, a critical hit automatically takes out a Minion.  And if it's a group of minions, you drop one minion automatically (making high damage, low Crit Rating weapons like lightsabers, vibroswords, and distruptor weapons pretty nasty)

Now what I got to wondering is that would a group of Minions still be considered a "single target" for purposes of triggering multiple critical hits?

My gut instinct is to say no, as Minion Groups are considered to operate as a single entity, but I could easily see arguments being made that as said group is composed of multiple individuals, you should be allowed to activate multiple critical hits against them.

Maybe something to address in the section about putting Minions in groups, one way or the other.

Although if it turns out you can score multiple critical hits against a Minion group, then the afore-mentioned weapons, or even a weapon that's been Jury-Rigged to reduce a standard Crit Rating of 3 down to a 2, just got a whole lot more potent against Minion groups.


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#39 LethalDose

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 03:15 PM

Donovan Morningfire said:

Had a thought about minions and how they suffer damage earlier today.

Per the rules regarding minions, a critical hit automatically takes out a Minion.  And if it's a group of minions, you drop one minion automatically (making high damage, low Crit Rating weapons like lightsabers, vibroswords, and distruptor weapons pretty nasty)

Now what I got to wondering is that would a group of Minions still be considered a "single target" for purposes of triggering multiple critical hits?

My gut instinct is to say no, as Minion Groups are considered to operate as a single entity, but I could easily see arguments being made that as said group is composed of multiple individuals, you should be allowed to activate multiple critical hits against them.

Maybe something to address in the section about putting Minions in groups, one way or the other.

Although if it turns out you can score multiple critical hits against a Minion group, then the afore-mentioned weapons, or even a weapon that's been Jury-Rigged to reduce a standard Crit Rating of 3 down to a 2, just got a whole lot more potent against Minion groups.

Well, I don't think there disagreement on the fact that you can activate autofire (without walking fire) to hit all the minions, so i don't see why there would be a problem for multiple critical hits either.  Did that make sense?

 

-WJL


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#40 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 12:25 AM

LethalDose said:

Well, I don't think there disagreement on the fact that you can activate autofire (without walking fire) to hit all the minions, so i don't see why there would be a problem for multiple critical hits either.  Did that make sense?

-WJL

At least for Autofire, it makes sense that you could mow down multiple Minions in one go, since in terms of how the mechanics operate, Autofire allows you to hit a single target multiple times, with the damage to a Minion group being abstracted.

A Critical Hit just means you drop said minion outright, and has the caveat that if activated multiple times against a single opponent, you just add +10 to the Critical Hit roll for each additional Crit activation (something I'd missed on the initial read-thru).  Like I said, I'm extremey hesitant about allowing it, as bumps weapons like the lightsaber into perhpap being too effective at goon sweeping, seeing as how a base hit already guarentees two dead minions, and two or three Advantage on the roll means a dead minion group.  Admittedly, such a thing would fall into the realm of Rule of Cool, but in terms of game mechanics it might be a thorny issue for some GMs.


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