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#21 Mattr0polis

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:40 AM

herozeromes said:

 

Also, the 3 you have give away 15 cards you have in your deck. There is no surprise.

I kind of have a problem with people saying this, as I've seen this brought up a few times now. Yes, they will know 15 cards in your deck, but that really is no different than many other card games. Good players will know the good combos and know to expect them as they start seeing pieces of your deck. In Decipher Star Wars CCG, for example, once you saw someone's starting Objective, you are going to know an equal portion of their deck in tournament play. Same in Magic TCG, where once you see the colors of mana, you are going to know some things to expect, powerful combos for those colors at high level play.

So yeah, this is no different. And it's still only 15 cards out of about 50 or 60. Though just like those other games, you'll probably be able to get a decent idea as to what other batches work very good with those ones and thus a few other things to watch out for.



#22 herozeromes

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:21 AM

Mattr0polis said:

In Decipher Star Wars CCG, for example, once you saw someone's starting Objective, you are going to know an equal portion of their deck in tournament play.

Yes, but Objectives were essentially a type of interrupt that allowed you to put a certain set of cards into play before the game even started. There were also Starting Interrupts. These gave a tactical advantage by allowing the player to get a jump start on playing cards. Yes, they know what cards are in play, but only because you put them all in play at once. In the LCG, you put out three objectives, and it reveals 1/4 of your (as of yet) hidden cards.



#23 Mattr0polis

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 06:16 AM

herozeromes said:

 

Mattr0polis said:

In Decipher Star Wars CCG, for example, once you saw someone's starting Objective, you are going to know an equal portion of their deck in tournament play.

 

Yes, but Objectives were essentially a type of interrupt that allowed you to put a certain set of cards into play before the game even started. There were also Starting Interrupts. These gave a tactical advantage by allowing the player to get a jump start on playing cards. Yes, they know what cards are in play, but only because you put them all in play at once. In the LCG, you put out three objectives, and it reveals 1/4 of your (as of yet) hidden cards.

 

 

I'm not talking about those cards. I'm talking about, if I saw you were playing Hunt Down objective, I know that you are almost certainly running 4-6x Vaders, 2-3 of his lightsaber, 2-3 Visage of the Emperor's, many of the interrupts that target Vader like I Have You Now and/or Focused Attack, etc. And depending on your starting effects chosen, I'll know a bunch of other info. Same for any of the objectives. About 1/4 of your deck.



#24 spalanzani

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 06:33 AM

The issue with objectives revealing a portion of your deck from the start is one that worried me at first, but then I thought "how likely is it that I will get to know every single card and which objective they are associated with, and what they do, when I have to know my own deck?" I mean, the guy I play AGoT with always plays as Stark, and has done for years, it's really no surprise when we play what cards I'm going to come up against, but then, I lose as often as I win, so even knowing what you're going to be up against doesn't necessarily mean your game is ruined. 

I do like this other idea about having objectives you can complete yourself. I find them analogous to quests in W:I, another Eric Lang creation, and whether it's just me or not, I feel it took them four battle pack cycles and three deluxe expansions to really figure out just how good quests could actually be in that game, so maybe we will get objectives in future expansions that have this mechanic. Or maybe there already are, but we just didn't see them because they're in the Rebel deck, not the Jedi deck. Or whatever. I'd have thought it would be pretty standard fare for a card game to have such devices anyway.

I just hope that objectives aren't more analogous to story cards in CoC, which would mean we'll be stuck with the same ones for a full year or more of expansions. My initial idea of what Force packs (or whatever they're going to call them now) will contain was ten new objectives, with the associated card pod, per pack - 10x6=60, after all. So hopefully we'll get a glut of these things with a whole host of awesome new mechanics to entertain us! The way the pods are numbered, it can't be that a Force pack will just provide more cards to flesh out each one, as they've already been numbered "1 of 6" or whatever. And the way it seems to be structured, the "x3" rule simply has no place here (thank goodness for that!) Of course, I'm sure if the "10-objectives" approach is the one they go with, and as Corey mentioned you can't have more than two of the same objective in your deck (though some are limited to only the one), then people will complain they have to buy Force packs in duplicate, as if FFG send people round to hold a gun to your head until you buy that third core set and the like. 

Ahem!

 


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#25 cleardave

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 08:44 AM

 I think we may be missing the interpretation of what the Objectives represent?

Let's use "Last Minute Rescue" as an example.

As the Light Side player, it is "my Objective' in the sense that it goes in the stack of cards I bring to the table.  Each turn, it lets me pull a damage token off a character.

As the Dark Side player destroying it, they have effectively thwarted my "Last Minute Rescue" of my character, preventing my character from getting the much needed healing.

As the Light Side, destroying "The Heart of the Empire" and winning the game sounds exactly like what you expect to happen if you took out Imperial Centre.

Destroying "Cruel Interrogations" is basically letting the Light Side do a jail break and free your captured POW's.

As the Dark Side, destroying "Jedi Training" will obviously prevent the Light Side from growing stronger in the Force, this making your bids for control of the Force each turn more effective.

There are a few that aren't as themey as those, like destroying "Hit and Run" doesn't really equate to something as grandiose as a jail break scenario, but for the most part, MY Objective cards are essentially YOUR Objective goals to defeat in the game.

It's certainly different than the SWCCG Objective cards, which were most definitely about you, not your opponent, but in a way, the bonuses you'd get for flipping the card required your opponent to attempt to stop you from flipping, thus making it an Objective for them too, in a roundabout way.



#26 Budgernaut

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 09:09 AM

 I think some questy-type objectives that you can fulfill would be a good addition. I don't think they all need to, but having a few would make it more interesting. It would also let you cycle through your deck, which you don't seem to be able to do at the moment. If you can't cycle your objectives, and one has an effect that really helps pull your deck together, you're only going to see it about every 1 in 3 games you play. I suppose the lesson there is, "Don't build a deck around an objective bonus."

At the same time, I don't want a single card that cycles your objectives because I feel like everyone would be playing that card. Unless it's expensive.

I really don't know what I'm talking about though, since I haven't played and the game essentially doesn't exist yet.


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#27 Mattr0polis

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 09:21 AM

Budgernaut said:

 I think some questy-type objectives that you can fulfill would be a good addition. I don't think they all need to, but having a few would make it more interesting. It would also let you cycle through your deck, which you don't seem to be able to do at the moment. If you can't cycle your objectives, and one has an effect that really helps pull your deck together, you're only going to see it about every 1 in 3 games you play. I suppose the lesson there is, "Don't build a deck around an objective bonus."

Well one of the objectives we've seen (A Journey to Dagobah) let's you search your objective deck and choose which one to play next when it's destroyed. And maybe there will be other ways in the future.



#28 herozeromes

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:29 PM

spalanzani said:

"how likely is it that I will get to know every single card and which objective they are associated with, and what they do, when I have to know my own deck?"

This is exactly how the winners of all the tournaments are going to do it. It's just like people counting cards at Casinos - only much easier. That's what I would do.



#29 cleardave

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:54 PM

herozeromes said:

spalanzani said:

"how likely is it that I will get to know every single card and which objective they are associated with, and what they do, when I have to know my own deck?"

 

This is exactly how the winners of all the tournaments are going to do it. It's just like people counting cards at Casinos - only much easier. That's what I would do.

The thing is, even if you knew every single card your opponent had in their deck, it still comes down to how you play the cards.  Do you want to keep Vader in your hand to deploy this turn, or keep him in your hand and try to bait your opponent into an attack where you can use his 4 edge dots to bluff him into thinking you're not going to respond with anything too strong?

There's a lot of situational things that can come up where you can play the same decks against each other several times and still have different outcomes based on luck of the draw, and taking calculated risks against your opponent's play style.

Added to this, for a Core Set, you're not going to have too many options anyways, but I doubt it will play poorly out of the box.

I'm not sure how long we will wait before the first wave of expansion packs come out, but if you're fortunate enough to have a big competitive scene in your area right at launch, you're all going to be playing with the same tiny pool of cards for a while, regardless of how you build your decks.

Compare to the Netrunner Core Set, which had a tournament last weekend.  Sure, you can pick an Identity, and with the Corp, have 4 factions to choose from to mix your cards, plus neutrals.  Without having it all in front of me, I'd imagine that while many combinations are "possible", not all of them would be "viable" at a tournament level if you were playing to win.

I'll wager that bluffing your way through an edge battle becomes a vital part of the game, when you consider that the same powerful cards you would want on the table will also win you an edge battle, but which way do you go with it?

In the example I gave above with Vader, let's assume that in the Objective set that he is attached to, you can have two copies of the Objective in your stack, and thus have 2 Vaders in your 50 card reserve deck. (60 cards total: 10 Objectives, with 5 cards belonging to each; 10 Objectives, 50 "player cards")

So lets say you draw out the top 3 cards on the Objective Deck, and you get both Vader Objectives, so your opponent is thinking "oh noes! 2 Vaders!!!1"

At no point will they know exactly how and when you're going to deploy him, if you ever do at all.  He could be the last two cards in the stack, he could be used as an edge card, he could come down on the ground the first turn, or be held back for "just the right moment" later on.

A good player will take note of the possibility and be aware of it in their decision making process for how to play their own cards, but it won't guarantee anything critical, in terms of having a huge game advantage.

A more inexperienced, or unaware player may not connect the dots and eat some kind of Vader beatdown, but then those same "noobs' can surprise you by doing something nobody in their right mind would try (which is sometimes why it works).  But then, if you're the best Star Wars LCG player, would you be spending all your SWLCG game time carving down new players, beneath your skill level, or would you try and teach them the ways of the Force and help them game better, assuming that was their goal, and not to just have fun playing cards as they feel.



#30 herozeromes

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 02:13 PM

cleardave said:

I'm not sure how long we will wait before the first wave of expansion packs come out, but if you're fortunate enough to have a big competitive scene in your area right at launch, you're all going to be playing with the same tiny pool of cards for a while, regardless of how you build your decks.

I will say this. I want to play the game to see what it is like. It's just very difficult to find players where I'm at.



#31 cleardave

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 02:34 PM

herozeromes said:

I will say this. I want to play the game to see what it is like. It's just very difficult to find players where I'm at.

Exactly.  My bigger concern would be IF there would be a competitive scene where I live, Toronto, and if that's happening, then I'll worry about how the game does or does not function at a higher level.

As it stands, the deck building mechanics will be more appealing to my gaming friends, and make it easier to get an opponent, even if its just with my own card pool.  I'd rather play 20 fun sessions on my dining room table with a buddy than a couple of organized matches one day at a store.

Ideally, both, but you take what you can get.  This isn't the 90's where it was CCG madness and you had your pick of the litter in terms of which game to play, AND which game to play competitively, especially since you were on the relative ground floor, experience-wise.  I couldn't imagine trying to play competitive Magic Constructed today, even with the card cycles meaning I wouldn't have to go back too far to stay current, there's just no substitute for someone who's been at it for 10+ years.



#32 herozeromes

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:12 PM

I just hope that the Community Wizard that they are working on is able to pair up people by actual proximity and not just state.



#33 Doc9

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:40 PM

 So, You can make a storm trooper 'force sensitive' and give him Vader's lightsaber? Really?



#34 Mattr0polis

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:45 PM

Doc9 said:

 

 So, You can make a storm trooper 'force sensitive' and give him Vader's lightsaber? Really?

 

 

I don't think there's any way yet to make a character 'force sensitive', which is just a bold word, so no. You might be able to put one of those 'committed to the force' cards on a stormtrooper, but I don't think that would be very worthwhile, nor let them use Vader's lightsaber.



#35 Budgernaut

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:23 PM

 I've just been looking through the pics posted on cardgamedb.com and saw something I didn't see before. The objective titled Cruel Interrogations states: Reaction: After this card enters play, take 1 card at random from each opponent's hand. Capture those cards at this objective.

I don't know about you guys, but it seems pretty clear to me that they're preparing for some 2v2 gameplay. Thoughts?


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#36 cleardave

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:26 PM

Budgernaut said:

 I've just been looking through the pics posted on cardgamedb.com and saw something I didn't see before. The objective titled Cruel Interrogations states: Reaction: After this card enters play, take 1 card at random from each opponent's hand. Capture those cards at this objective.

I don't know about you guys, but it seems pretty clear to me that they're preparing for some 2v2 gameplay. Thoughts?

I saw that too.  I'm sure that's just a smart move to cover all your bases, so for what will likely be the "official" tournament structure of 1v1, you can also provide guidelines in the rules for 2v2 teams, without making unnecessary errata later.  It also saves arguing with "that guy" in your group if if just wanted to house rule a 2v2 structure if one isn't officially provided for in the rulebook.



#37 MarthWMaster

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:30 PM

Doc9 said:

So, You can make a storm trooper 'force sensitive' and give him Vader's lightsaber? Really?

 

 

I don't know what card gives a Character the Force Sensitive keyword, but it is conceivable that, once conventional conscripts began to be added to the ranks of the previously-clonal stormtrooper corps, a few of them exhibited Force sensitivity, and were promptly brought into the Emperor's cabal while retaining their trooper status as a cover identity. Perhaps one of them showed particular promise, and managed to destroy and take the place of Darth Vader himself, claiming his saber as a trophy. This isn't canon, obviously, but part of the fun of movie- and lit-based games like this is getting to explore the implications of how things play out differently in your match, versus how they happened in the source franchise.



#38 spalanzani

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 06:00 AM

cleardave said:

Budgernaut said:

 

 I've just been looking through the pics posted on cardgamedb.com and saw something I didn't see before. The objective titled Cruel Interrogations states: Reaction: After this card enters play, take 1 card at random from each opponent's hand. Capture those cards at this objective.

I don't know about you guys, but it seems pretty clear to me that they're preparing for some 2v2 gameplay. Thoughts?

 

 

I saw that too.  I'm sure that's just a smart move to cover all your bases, so for what will likely be the "official" tournament structure of 1v1, you can also provide guidelines in the rules for 2v2 teams, without making unnecessary errata later.  It also saves arguing with "that guy" in your group if if just wanted to house rule a 2v2 structure if one isn't officially provided for in the rulebook.

Yeah, I noticed that as well, but after the initial "ooooh!", I remembered the multitude of cards in Warhammer that refer to opponents plural, but that is, to the best of my knowledge, a game with no official multiplayer variant. 


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